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Thread: 2017 F-35 news and discussion thread

  1. #1471
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    Quote Originally Posted by hopsalot
    If that were true, what does your incessant trolling say about you? Honestly read your last few posts in this thread... impotent rage, all because Germany is moving towards buying the F-35.
    There is no rage in my posts, just a mild amusement about how a troll like you immediately jumped on how Germans were already buying the thing and how they needed the F-35 so badly.. a country with absolutely non-existing offensive doctrine who were flying Phantoms as their main asset just few years ago.. oh, out of the sudden, now they can't live without your "unparalleled situational awareness"..

    But, similarly to the thing with my origin, you seem to know much better about how I feel than I do myself, so why bother..

    Quote Originally Posted by hopsalot
    Maybe it is time to consider why you are so emotionally invested in the F-35 failing...something that isn't going to happen.
    Failing in what sense? The huge domestic orders from all three branches of US military and utter lack of any competition have already decided the F-35's fate long before it has flown.. too big to fail and all that.. from that standpoint, the F-35 surely will enjoy a long life..

    Anyway, the F-35 has ended up to be a far worse aircraft that it could have been.. And that's a failure with a quality all its own.. what you fail to see is that in the meantime, Russians and Chinese have presented designs which have good prospects to become comparably or more advanced and sophisticated than your premier fighter, to be IOC-ed just few years later than the pig.. When I look at the tremendous superiority the F-22 once had over the contemporary Flankers or Tornadoes and the "superiority" the F-35 will have over J-20 or PAK-FA, then I can say that the F-35 has safely eaten up 90% of your technical advantage.. if that is not a failure, then I don't know what is..

    but hey, it has beaten the T-38s on BVR exercises.. you can be proud

  2. #1472
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    Quote Originally Posted by Msphere
    but hey, it has beaten the T-38s on BVR exercises.. you can be proud
    It has also beaten F-16, F-15E that have IADS support.

  3. #1473
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    Let's put the thing straight: in the exercise in question a mixed force of Typhoon, Rafale, F-22 and f-35 has beaten a mixed one made by legacy ones like F-15E and T-38 (there I'll would call for Heritage, not just Legacy) with IADS support.

    It seems that the F-35 have actually not performed any (simulated) killing, just passing info to the Typhoons via Datalink.

    So, according to you the outcome is that even with the IADS support, USAF legacy forces is impotent against the mix soon to be fielded by their main European partners.
    Seems I have to reconsider my judgement about my own country politicians there.

  4. #1474
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    Not F-15 il you mean red flag. There were only F-16 agressors

  5. #1475
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    As part of the USAF's two-part assessment prior to declaring IOC, the F-35As at Hill were pitted against a representative threat in which the red force included F-15Es from Mountain Home AFB, just like the ones that were present at Langley last month.
    Last edited by bring_it_on; 19th May 2017 at 12:22.
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  6. #1476
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcellogo
    It seems that the F-35 have actually not performed any (simulated) killing, just passing info to the Typhoons via Datalink.
    Where did you get that notion from? The F-35s after expending their missiles were able loiter in hostile zone and function in a ISTAR role (helped by their excellent combat persistence) - that doesn't mean they never engaged in simulated killing.

  7. #1477
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    Let's put the thing straight: in the exercise in question a mixed force of Typhoon, Rafale, F-22 and f-35 has beaten a mixed one made by legacy ones like F-15E and T-38 (there I'll would call for Heritage, not just Legacy) with IADS support.

    It seems that the F-35 have actually not performed any (simulated) killing, just passing info to the Typhoons via Datalink.
    That is incorrect. According to one of the reporters who flew with "red air", in at least one scenario the F-35 and the Typhoon were tasked with escorting the strikers, a mixed force F-22 and Rafale.

    No where does it claim that the F-35 didn't perform any simulated killing. Your confusing what has been stated in several exercises, the F-35's are asked to provide targeting to blue air after expending their own weapons.

    It has been stated multiple times about both the F-22 and F-35, their magazine depth is a limiting factor. They often expend their weapons and are still tasked with staying on to provide coverage in exercises. The USAF is looking at several ways to address this issue: arsenal planes, F-15C with expanded external carriage, and smaller munitions.

  8. #1478
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    The F-35's that participated in Atlantic Trident were limited to half of their complete SDD (3F) missile load anyways so such tactics are understandable.
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  9. #1479
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    Not F-15 il you mean red flag. There were only F-16 agressors
    No, they are the only dedicated aggressor force (other than the contractor A-4's). Units participating are added to Red air depending on the scenario. Without knowing what force mix was using on the different simulated missions, you can't say with certainty what aircraft/units were part of red air or blue air in a given mission. It doesn't appear that either the F-22 or F-35 operated with red air, probably because the USAF is more interested in integrating these fighters with allied and legacy aircraft.

    (Addition- F-15C from the 159th fs ANG also flew with red air on some missions)
    Last edited by FBW; 19th May 2017 at 12:54.

  10. #1480
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    Future F-35 production numbers released



    A new document released by the US Department of the Navy reveals further specifics of future Lockheed Martin F-35 multirole fighter aircraft production lots and confirms the timing of international deliveries.

    The recent contract for Low Rate Initial Production (LRIP) Lot 10 was well publicised in February due to the vocal involvement of newly-inaugurated President Trump and came in at a total cost of nearly $9 billion for 90 aircraft.

    Now, future contracts for the controversial F-35 programme are already on the books. Published on the FBO website by Naval Air Systems Command on 15 May, the new document outlines the recently awarded LRIP 12 contract, signed on 28 April at a cost of $1.38 billion.

    The LRIP 12 to 14 Justification and Approval (J&A) notice reveals that LRIP 12 will number at least 147 airframes whilst further long lead items for LRIPs 13 and 14 account for an additional minimum of 156 and 154 airframes respectively.

    In addition, the document lists the number of aircraft allocated to each customer per LRIP lot and, whilst almost half the total number are for US DoD customers (USAF, USN, and USMC), at least 77 aircraft from LRIP 12 are for foreign customers.


    By far the largest customer for LRIPs 12, 13, and 14 outside of the US will be the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF), which is set to receive 45 aircraft across the three lots. The final 15 aircraft will be delivered under Lot 14 between January and December 2022.

    The RAAF’s expedited acquisition of the F-35A will see it become the first entirely fifth generation air force by 2025, according to a recent speech by Chief of the Air Force, Air Marshal Leo Davies, at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, where he stated that the RAAF will ‘have no legacy aircraft after 2025’ under current procurement plans.

    The J&A document also shows significant numbers for the Turkish Air Force, acquiring 24 across the three lots; the Netherlands will also receive 24; whilst Norway will get 18; and Denmark will receive 14 in total.
    Most notably, however, are the redacted portions of document which invite consideration on the likely destination of these aircraft.

    Across lots 12 to 14 there are three redacted customers who will receive 24, 18, and 12 airframes respectively. It is likely that these aircraft are bound for South Korea, Japan, and Israel.

    Finally, one customer is redacted entirely with no numbers or variants listed but countries such as Belgium or Canada are possibilities as they are both in various stages of planning future combat aircraft procurements but have not yet selected the F-35.
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  11. #1481
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    Thank you for your replies.

    I was obviously referring to the Atlantic Trident and in an even specific way to the T-38 partecipation in it, not to the whole exercises.
    Still in NOT any of such exercises the F-35 has even put against a 4,5 or 5 generation plane, just against legacy one.
    The Atlantic Trident itself centered more about the interoperability of actual fighter planes that to evaluation to their performances in a direct confrontation.
    So using any of hose exercise to extabilish a difference of values between them has not a sound base.

    There would be a moment also to put one against the other but this time is still far IMHO, much more important is to learn to operate them together in the best of way.

  12. #1482
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  13. #1483
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcellog
    Let's put the thing straight: in the exercise in question a mixed force of Typhoon, Rafale, F-22 and f-35 has beaten a mixed one made by legacy ones like F-15E and T-38 (there I'll would call for Heritage, not just Legacy) with IADS support.

    It seems that the F-35 have actually not performed any (simulated) killing, just passing info to the Typhoons via Datalink.

    So, according to you the outcome is that even with the IADS support, USAF legacy forces is impotent against the mix soon to be fielded by their main European partners.
    Seems I have to reconsider my judgement about my own country politicians there.
    Quote Originally Posted by halloweene
    Not F-15 il you mean red flag. There were only F-16 agressors
    AFAIK Previously, it was F-35 against F-15E in Mountain Home AFB https://theaviationist.com/2016/06/2...ed-deployment/
    and F-35 was pitted against F-16 in Red flag


    legacy aircraft have air defense support in both case.
    Last edited by garryA; 19th May 2017 at 15:14.

  14. #1484
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    According to this source http://www.blogbeforeflight.net/2017...ctice-not.html
    The movement of eight F-35As to Lakenheath, England-the first overseas deployment of the Air Force's newest fighter-isn't meant to send any kind of political message, and the aircraft won't be available for operational missions during their weeks-long stay in the UK, USAF officers reported during a telephone press conference on April 19.
    The deployment, which was made over the weekend with little notice, had nevertheless been in the planning for months
    ...
    During the deployment, the F-35s will first spend a week or so tangling with F-15Cs and Es from Lakenheath, which will be the first overseas F-35A base in a few years. They will practice both air-to-air and air-to-ground missions, 1v1 and 2v2 scenarios and "fighting our way in.and out" of simulated target areas, but will use no actual ordnance, live or inert. Further on, the F-35s will practice against British Typhoons, and possibly Dutch F-16s,

  15. #1485
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    7.5 mission capable rate.
    . Good thing albeit not awesome. MC or FMC? How many ppl and material there to maintain them? Eg. Dring Harmattan or Chammal, Rafale sorties rate above 95% not an indication of what is hapenning in France...

    legacy aircraft have air defense support in both case.
    Albeit F35 were helped by F-22 and AWACS. Are ou sure these kills were F-35? Not F-22? Still good.
    Last edited by halloweene; 19th May 2017 at 16:12.

  16. #1486
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    Quote Originally Posted by bring_it_on
    Future F-35 production numbers released
    So basically by LRIP 12-14 the F-35 program will be producing roughly as many F-35's per year as the Rafale program has produced to-date. (and in LRIP 11-14 the F-35 program will produce more F-35's than the entire Eurofighter program)
    Last edited by hopsalot; 19th May 2017 at 20:29.

  17. #1487
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    Quote Originally Posted by halloweene
    Albeit F35 were helped by F-22 and AWACS. Are ou sure these kills were F-35? Not F-22? Still good.
    Legacy aircraft have AWACs support too according to what pilots said in the recent exercrise. There was no F-22 in Mountain Home AFB practice AFAIK

  18. #1488
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    @ GarryA
    AFAIK Previously, it was F-35 against F-15E in Mountain Home AFB https://theaviationist.com/2016/06/2...ed-deployment/
    and F-35 was pitted against F-16 in Red flag
    Yes, what is the difference from what I have said?
    The have put airplanes of the actual first line (F-22, Typhoon, Rafale and f-35) against those of precedent generation, not interested at all in making a direct confrontation between one air force against another but to explore how they can operate together in order to maximize their efficacy.
    Last edited by Marcellogo; 19th May 2017 at 23:00.

  19. #1489
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcellogo
    yes, what is the difference from what I have said?
    The have put airplanes of the actual first line (F-22, Typhoon, Rafale and f-35) against those of precedent generation, not interested at all in making a direct confrontation between one air force against another but to explore how they can operate together in order to maximize their efficacy.
    Rafale, Typhoon only join exercise very recently, previously it was F-35 against others legacy aircraft. Regardless, late F-15E is pretty comparable to Rafale and Typhoon IMHO. Cruising slower than Typhoon and probably less agility than both at low altitude but F-15E has very good radar and high altitudes maneuverability to balance it
    Last edited by garryA; 19th May 2017 at 23:29.

  20. #1490
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    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  21. #1491
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    Quote Originally Posted by bring_it_on View Post
    LM pilot? The USAF still hasn't cleared the F-35 for airshows using service pilots if I remember correctly. Will be interesting what they show at Le Bourget.

  22. #1492
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    Not Contractor but USAF, F-35 Heritage Flight Team member I think.
    Last edited by bring_it_on; 20th May 2017 at 00:34.
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  23. #1493
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    Not that I'm obsessed with that either, bit it seems that the F-35 has the light grey paint scheme in that video. At 4:25 one can see that the radome is slightly darker than the rest of the plane, while it is the reverse on the old paint scheme.

  24. #1494
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    QF-16s help F-35 JOTT plan for future testing


    EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE, Calif. --
    Three QF-16s descended on Edwards recently to aid the F-35 Joint Operational Test Team with test planning.

    The QF-16 is a full-scale aerial target that has been modified to be flown with a pilot in the cockpit for training and also without a pilot as a target for live missile testing. The unique jets are from the 82nd Aerial Targets Squadron from Tyndall Air Force Base, Florida, and Holloman Air Force Base, New Mexico.

    The QF-16 is a fourth-generation fighter that maintains all inherent capabilities of the baseline F-16 Fighting Falcon including supersonic flight and 9-G maneuverability, according to the 82nd ATRS.

    The QF-16’s fourth-generation fighter capabilities are designed to help test fifth-generation fighters like the F-35 Lightning II against aerial adversaries and targets.

    “We’re preparing for initial operational test and evaluation that starts next year,” said Matt Feringa, F-35 JOTT senior tactical systems analyst. “Part of the QF-16’s mission is to carry airborne radar jamming pods. We flew F-35s with them as part of our test design development and to preliminarily evaluate the F-35 against those jamming pods.”

    The JOTT at Edwards is part of a joint enterprise that conducts operational test and evaluation of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. The unit consists of all U.S. services that will operate the different F-35 variants along with coalition partners such as the United Kingdom and the Netherlands who will also operate the JSF.

    Feringa said the QF-16s were here for two weeks and the JOTT received good data to move ahead with their test plans. For the JOTT test purposes, the QF-16s were flown by pilots from the 82nd ATRS.

    The QF-16 allows customers to test weapons systems in real-world scenarios before reaching the battlefield. Initial operational capability for the QF-16 full-scale aerial target was declared Sept. 23, 2016. The 82nd ATRS operates the only full-scale aerial target capability in the Defense Department.

    The QF-16 replaced the QF-4 Aerial Targets, which were converted F-4 Phantoms. The QF-4 flew its last unmanned mission Aug. 17, 2016 at Holloman AFB and was officially retired in December.
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  25. #1495
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    Annual "servicing costs" for 42 Japanese F-35 have been estimated to be 40 billion yen (360 million USD).

    http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ201704280005.html

    Those F-35 are not cheap to operate, in particular not in Japan.

  26. #1496
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    $47,600 / hour (assuming 180 flight hours annually). Roughly 2.5-times the figure of an F-16 (depending on what is included)

  27. #1497
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    @ garryA
    Seems me we are stuck in a vicious circle there.

    It can also be that the F-15E is the best fighters of the whole world but this doesn't change the fact that in all the exercises cited in this thread there were none in which ANY plane of the current production cycle has been put against ANY plane of the same level, only against legacy ones.

    This, with all probability. because there is not any interest between the AF taking part on such multinational exercises to ascertain if the model X is better than the model Y of Z ( compared to us armchair generals and engineers or in the best of cases the producers of said planes) in a a determined type of fighting or in another when instead there is definitively one into training to get the maximum that they can with the assets at their disposal.

    A proof of such is that they have not made any try to make up mixed USAF legacy/ Actual planes formation also if that is the combination that its more likely to happen in real life.
    Last edited by Marcellogo; 22nd May 2017 at 09:46.

  28. #1498
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    It can also be that the F-15E is the best fighters of the whole world but this doesn't change the fact that in all the exercises cited in this thread there were none in which ANY plane of the current production cycle has been put against ANY plane of the same level, only against legacy ones.
    Perhaps I misunderstand what you are trying to say, but 4.5 gen fighters like Rafale and Typhoon have of course flown against eachother.


    A 4.5 gen fighter like Rafale or Gripen E would probably stand a slightly better chance against the F-35 than the F-15E -- not to mention the Typhoon once it gets an AESA radar.

    My guess: Perhaps going from a score of 21-1 to 20-2 or so... (that's 100% improvement! )

  29. #1499
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    What a bunch of nonsense..

  30. #1500
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    What a bunch of nonsense..
    Why don't we just agree to disagree... AFAIK you have no sources to support your position and thus any further discussion seems very difficult from my POV.

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