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Thread: 2017 F-35 news and discussion thread

  1. #1441
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    Quote Originally Posted by Msphere
    Develop their own.. or join some already existing development program..
    The German EF production lines will close down in 2018.

    The FCAS will enter service no earlier than 2030. The T-FX & K-FX probably around 2035.

    The Luftwaffe however needs Tornado replacements starting 2025, if not earlier. A UCAV can come in the 2030s as a EF T1 replacement but over the short term it'll remain a development project.

    Quote Originally Posted by Msphere
    And what is the mission of the future Luftwaffe that the Typhoon would not be able to do?
    Under Scottish Skies – Red Flag and the Middle East
    Originally a Tornado F.3 pilot, Cooper is also a Qualified Weapons Instructor with over 3,000 flying hours on fighters. The RAF QWI course roughly corresponds to the US Navy’s TOPGUN program, but strives to give a broader understanding of the aircraft, it’s weapons and capabilities. Earlier this year, he lead the squadron in exercise Red Flag 17-1 in Nevada, an exercise which created quite some buzz for being the first time the F-35A participated in a Red Flag exercise.

    While it was heavily reported that the F-35A had achieved a 20:1 kill ratio, the details of the exercise has naturally been kept under wraps. As such, it was very interesting to hear Cooper describe his first-hand experience of operating Typhoons together with the F-35’s. As could be expected, he described the F-35 regularly operating within the engagement zones of the REDFOR air defences. Compared to other non-stealthy fighters, the Typhoon was in turn able to achieve greater stand-off range for its weapons, thanks to its ability to operate higher and faster. This allowed it to lay further back, often remaining outside of the threat range. What all seemed to agree on, was that the the F-35 transmitting sensor data on Link 16 provided a huge boost in situational awareness for the rest of the fleet.

    When asked about the RAF acquiring both aircraft, none of the pilots were prepared to pick one over the other. “You need stealth to be able to go forward,” Cooper argued. His personal opinion was that the future lies in the mix of capabilities provided by different platforms, echoing the sentiment expressed by his commander at an earlier briefing. “Both airplanes are fantastic airplanes,” Godfrey had said. “A mix would always be better [than operating only F-35’s or Typhoons].” When pressed further for which one he would choose if he could only get one, Godfrey had smiled and just said “Both”.

    While a puzzled group of Finnish media representatives started to wonder if the fighter pilots were arguing for the stealthy F-35 as the right choice for HX, further discussion revealed the complexity of the issue. The big thing in the mind of the pilots was not so much stealth in and by itself, but the superior situational awareness the F-35 got by combining the ability to get in close while carrying a good sensor suite, and which it then shared with the rest of the team. By teaming up with the Typhoons and their heavy load of long-ranged weapons, the F-35 in turn got around it’s main weakness in Red Flag, namely its very limited load of internal weapons. Some participants in the exercise jokingly referred to the stealth fighter as the ‘cheerleader’, always present providing data and cheering the other ones on, but often unable to take the shots themselves having already expended all their missiles.

  2. #1442
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    I have to agree with Vnomad there, in the sense that F-35 is the natural substitute for Tornado.
    Long range, superb sensor suite, good penetrating capabilities, A2G mission specialized but with an added A2A capability Tornado lack completely, only limitation a.t.m. the inability to carry a SEAD missile but it will be fixed in a second moment.
    It would however perform its own mission in a very different way but the same would happen using Typhoon.

  3. #1443
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    Operate in defended airspace...
    Curiously the French and Swedes seem to believe that they can operate Rafale and Gripen E for still some time to come...

    No doubt stealth is highly preferrable however with the right tactics a modern 4.5 gen fighter jet still has a lot to offer.

    Cost seems to be an issue with the Typhoon, in particular operational costs.

    Another major issue however was mentioned by Eagle above; the capability to carry nukes (or rather the lack thereof).

    Most likely the Germans will purchase a small (20-40?) number of F-35 and use them as a stop-gap while they develop their own 5. gen fighter (assuming they can find partners -- might be tricky after the highly expensive "Typhoon experience" -- they have to do better in the future!)

  4. #1444
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    Where exactly did these operational cost rumours about the Typhoon emerge from? Germany has had a lot of aircraft inoperable, not just Typhoons.

  5. #1445
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loke
    No doubt stealth is highly preferrable ...
    I will leave it at that. Yes, 4th generation aircraft retain some utility, but going forward it is obvious their days as front-line fighters are numbered.

  6. #1446
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    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  7. #1447
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    I will leave it at that. Yes, 4th generation aircraft retain some utility, but going forward it is obvious their days as front-line fighters are numbered.
    They will probably take on the role of cruise missile launching platforms, AAM trucks and post air-superiority mop up of ground targets.

  8. #1448
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    Per the above Bogdan clip... Program on track to deliver an F-35A, with engine and all fees, for $79 mil in then year dollars (2:50 mark).
    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

  9. #1449
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    Does it have an ejection seat and ability to fire NSM?

  10. #1450
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    NSM is not an air launched weapon. The JSM, based largely on it is, and will be integrated on the F-35A, likely in the first half of block 4. At the moment the JSM is undergoing flight trials which will likely carry on till the end of the year or into next year.
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  11. #1451
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    Not sure the question you have about the seat but JSM comes in Block 4.x
    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

  12. #1452
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    Quote Originally Posted by hopsalot
    Operate in defended airspace...
    Germans don't need that.. just few years ago they have depended on ancient F-4F ICE and suddenly a Typhoon is not enough? Makes no sense..

  13. #1453
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere View Post
    Germans don't need that.. just few years ago they have depended on ancient F-4F ICE and suddenly a Typhoon is not enough? Makes no sense..
    Certainly does to Germany. A few years ago Germany-Russia relations were at an all time high. As with many nations of Eastern Europe, the situation has changed and their defense posture with it.

  14. #1454
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    And that you can tell from your home in Chicago or Los Angeles? you have no idea about this part of the world.. apart from politicians dancing to US tune, the support for sanctions among the European population has been very lukewarm, outright modest.. even in Germany.. even more in Eastern Europe, except Poland and Ukraine (logically)..

    Support for sanctions: Poland 70%, Romania 52%, Croatia 50%, Estonia 49%, Lithuania 45%, Latvia 38%, Czech Republic 35%, Hungary 29%, Slovakia 25%, Bulgaria 23%, Greece 11%, Albania 60%, Kosovo 57%, Bosnia 24%, Macedonia 19%, Montenegro 10%, Serbia 5%

  15. #1455
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    Hill Air Force Base's second F-35 fighter squadron begins operating in June


    HILL AIR FORCE BASE — Hill Air Force Base’s second F-35 fighter squadron is scheduled to begin operating in June, a major step toward filling out the installation’s full fleet of next-generation fighter aircraft.

    In a Wednesday conference call with local and national media outlets, 388th Maintenance Group commander Col. Michael Miles said Hill’s 4th Fighter Squadron is expected to stand up on June 9. The squadron will be the second to form around the base’s F-35 program, launching nearly two years after the 34th Fighter Squadron began operating in July 2015.Starting in September, Miles said, the new squadron will begin receiving one or two aircraft every month from jet manufacturer Lockheed Martin. The squadron is already about 50 percent staffed, Miles said, as airmen who will work in it have been working for months in the 34th FS, preparing for the transition.

    388th Fighter Wing Commander Col. David Lyons said the base’s third and final F-35 fighter squadron, the 421st, will begin operations sometime in 2018. By 2019, the 388th and 419th fighter wings are scheduled to receive their full allotment of 78 jets, spread across the three operational squadrons.

    So far, the base has received 20 jets.

    During the conference call, Lyons, Miles and seven other base officials highlighted the Hill wings’ recent deployment to Royal Air Force Lakenheath in England.

    In April, Hill pilots flew eight of the base’s jets across the pond for the first time. The deployment included maintenance workers, security forces and other support personnel who trained with other U.S. and NATO aircraft stationed in Europe as part of the European Reassurance Initiative.

    Hill crews trained with European-based allies during the exercise, with the F-35s flying into Eastern European counties like Bulgaria and Estonia, near the Russia border.

    Lyons said 84 sorties, or combat training flights, were scheduled during the deployment, and all but four were completed. The four lost sorties were due to minor maintenance issues in which the jets were not ready at the scheduled take-off time.

    Lt. Col. George Watkins, 34th FS commander, said the group’s first transatlantic deployment was “a major steppingstone in the run-up” to a real combat scenario.
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  16. #1456
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere View Post
    And that you can tell from your home in Chicago or Los Angeles? you have no idea about this part of the world..
    I do, but that isn't the point. Your confusing public support (predicated on economic impact) with that of the governments that have become very aware of Russian "activities". Needless to say, given your predilection for all things Russian, it might be you who are out of touch.

    In any case, Merkel has turned decidedly more hostile toward Russia, and seems to be rethinking the gutting of German armed forces. In that context, the F-35 is being considered as a replacement for the Tornado. Whether you see the need or not, Germany does.

  17. #1457
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBW View Post
    Certainly does to Germany. A few years ago Germany-Russia relations were at an all time high. As with many nations of Eastern Europe, the situation has changed and their defense posture with it.
    Germany act tough in public for it's image but no doubt Germany dependence increasing on Russia and Russia already using combat center for training . 1500 tanks at a time
    http://eng.mil.ru/en/structure/okrug...2010630@egNews

    This private and public difference of Germany now caught by Turks.
    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/tur...&NewsCatID=510
    He said Gabriel had made different remarks in private, suggesting the minister was using the dispute for political gain ahead of September elections in Germany.

  18. #1458
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBW View Post
    I do, but that isn't the point. Your confusing public support (predicated on economic impact) with that of the governments that have become very aware of Russian "activities". Needless to say, given your predilection for all things Russian, it might be you who are out of touch.

    In any case, Merkel has turned decidedly more hostile toward Russia, and seems to be rethinking the gutting of German armed forces. In that context, the F-35 is being considered as a replacement for the Tornado. Whether you see the need or not, Germany does.
    Germany is dangling this F35 in 2025 to weasel out from it's 2% obligation in NATO .

  19. #1459
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBW
    I do, but that isn't the point. Your confusing public support (predicated on economic impact) with that of the governments that have become very aware of Russian "activities".
    Governments are temporary, it's public support what counts, in the end.. you can choose to ignore the will of 60-70% of your population on that matter, but then.. you reap what you sow..

    Quote Originally Posted by FBW
    Needless to say, given your predilection for all things Russian, it might be you who are out of touch.
    An American willing to lecture someone on Russians and Europe.. LMAO.. get back to your Clinton vs Trump vs Sanders little backyard games, please..

    Quote Originally Posted by FBW
    In any case, Merkel has turned decidedly more hostile toward Russia, and seems to be rethinking the gutting of German armed forces. In that context, the F-35 is being considered as a replacement for the Tornado. Whether you see the need or not, Germany does.
    Merkel hostile towards Russia? First time I hear that.. and I am watching German news a lot.. just curious, what is the last time you have ever watched anything beyond FoxNews?
    Last edited by MSphere; 19th May 2017 at 00:29.

  20. #1460
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere
    Germans don't need that.. just few years ago they have depended on ancient F-4F ICE and suddenly a Typhoon is not enough? Makes no sense..
    Right, as usual MSphere thinks he knows best.


  21. #1461
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    And that you can tell from your home in Chicago or Los Angeles? you have no idea about this part of the world.. apart from politicians dancing to US tune, the support for sanctions among the European population has been very lukewarm, outright modest.. even in Germany.. even more in Eastern Europe, except Poland and Ukraine (logically)..
    Right, but obviously a Norwegian is an expert on all things Eurasia.

    Americans have every right to form opinions on and comment on German defense policies. We are close allies and NATO alliance members...

  22. #1462
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    Ok Msphere. No interest in delving into this with someone who's anti-American attitude is so venomous. Your views on people from the states is ignorance personified. Then again you don't know what my profession is, so I'll give you a pass on your offensive lecture.

    One quick question, who is the politician leading the EU push for no relaxation of sanctions?

  23. #1463
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    Quote Originally Posted by hopsalot
    Right, as usual MSphere thinks he knows best.
    Nope, you are right, German defence needs should be decided and outlined by a F-35 fanboy with morbid urge to force his crap of an aircraft to all air forces in the world. Sorry that I did not recognize that earlier..

  24. #1464
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBW
    Ok Msphere. No interest in delving into this with someone who's anti-American attitude is so venomous. Your views on people from the states is ignorance personified. Then again you don't know what my profession is, so I'll give you a pass on your offensive lecture.
    There is nothing anti-American in my responses.. I just love to be lectured on local matters by individuals living halfway across the planet, having no clue.. I have, indeed, no idea about what your profession is and I am not even that much interested in learning that, as you have exhibited very poor understanding on Euro matters thus far, anyway.. It has generally nothing to do with your nationality, I would treat a Canadian, Brazilian or Chinese the same way..

    Quote Originally Posted by FBW
    One quick question, who is the politician leading the EU push for no relaxation of sanctions?
    Frankly? No one.. Generally, there is hardly anyone among Euro politicians who exhibits vocal support for no relaxation of sanctions.. except maybe Tusk or Poroshenko.. Merkel is balancing on thin ice, trying to please multiple sides with contradicting interests. Ukros who are driving completely nuts, the US with a comparatively hardcore stance, her own foreign minister calling for an easing, chief executives of EU industry urging to back down completely, split population seeing no real sense of all this, increasingly resorting to votes to alternative (and often Euroskeptic) parties, etc. The outcome is pretty obvious - she calls for a dialogue, promising to lift sanctions gradually, after Minsk accords are implemented. That's a far cry from being hostile, in my opinion.. note that EU has seemingly given up on Crimea completely..
    Last edited by MSphere; 19th May 2017 at 01:10.

  25. #1465
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere
    Nope, you are right, German defence needs should be decided and outlined by a F-35 fanboy with morbid urge to force his crap of an aircraft to all air forces in the world. Sorry that I did not recognize that earlier..
    You think the Germans requested the briefing because of me? Flattering, but I somehow suspect their own assessment of their needs had something to do with it.

  26. #1466
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere
    There is nothing anti-American in my responses.. I just love to be lectured on local matters by individuals living halfway across the planet, having no clue..
    You think Germany is local? Long walk from Norway isn't it?

  27. #1467
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBW View Post
    Ok Msphere. No interest in delving into this with someone who's anti-American attitude is so venomous. Your views on people from the states is ignorance personified. Then again you don't know what my profession is, so I'll give you a pass on your offensive lecture.

    One quick question, who is the politician leading the EU push for no relaxation of sanctions?
    Merkel is all talk with no practical relevance. I can fill this place for the German CEOs that visit Russia. That big armoured combat training center Mulino.
    Kamaz make heavy trucks
    http://www.euractiv.com/section/euro...-eu-sanctions/

  28. #1468
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    Quote Originally Posted by hopsalot
    You think Germany is local? Long walk from Norway isn't it?
    Sure, a very long walk from Norway.. from my place, less so.. your stupid stubbornness on matters which you have zero clue about only shows the attitude of you as a poster in general..

    Good night
    Last edited by MSphere; 19th May 2017 at 01:10.

  29. #1469
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere View Post
    Sure, a very long walk from Norway.. from my place, less so.. your stupid stubbornness on matters which you have zero clue about only shows the attitude of you as a poster in general..

    Good night
    If that were true, what does your incessant trolling say about you? Honestly read your last few posts in this thread... impotent rage, all because Germany is moving towards buying the F-35.

    Maybe it is time to consider why you are so emotionally invested in the F-35 failing...something that isn't going to happen.

  30. #1470
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    People what is happening there? Germany jusk asked some information and you are starting the WWIII about it, calm down a little.
    Stay on thye topic and doesn't try to go on politics please.

    On this, the most criticable thing is IMHO that because the Germans are looking for a substitute to their Tornado i.e. a very specialized attack plane, suddenly someone came out with all the 4,5 planes and in the given case the Typhoon i.e. probably the most A2A oriented to the whole lot are suddenly became useless.
    Germans are just doing now what Italy and UK (i.e. the first and second main contributors of the project outside USA) planned to do from the beginning of their involvement in the F-35 project: replace an old, very specialized and sophisticated air to ground strike plane with a new one lighter (and in this objective was missed) and way more sophisticated, surely more flexible but still air to ground mission oriented one.
    Now, if someone want to insert a political debate there, would better ask himself why the German have not made this choice then, more twenty years ago, and not now.

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