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Thread: 2017 F-35 news and discussion thread

  1. #1801
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    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  2. #1802
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    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  3. #1803
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    Hope no one get offended but the only parts that have really surprised me are the ones with the gear down.
    In the sense that you see how powerful the engine is even at very start, the rest is without any doubt a solid but absolutely conventional performance.

  4. #1804
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    Tbh, there is a nice cpntrolled "spin"

  5. #1805
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    the rest is without any doubt a solid but absolutely conventional performance.
    And you'd expect nothing different from the Conventional F-35 variant . From a crowd perspective, it's tough to match a stealth fighter stopping mid air and hovering overhead.



    But lets get back to what the F-35A is up against and that is the perception in some circles that it is a flying brick inferior to the aircraft it is replacing as far as maneuverability is concerned when pilots have said that it is at par or superior in most areas while the legacy aircraft may be better in certain others.

    If one had access to total flight performance data one could probably find instances in most aircraft projects of the past few decades where the aircraft was inferior to the aircraft it is replacing in some metric or the other. That can be said of the F-22 vis-a-vis the F-15, or the Typhoon vis-a-vis the F-4 etc.

    From an air-combat perspective, most professionals talk about combat effectiveness when fitted into a force structure and operational construct, but that seldom drives narratives in the media or the court of public opinoin. What does are X vs Y comparison whether that is pitting the F-35 to an F-16 or F-18 or to any other favorite aircraft out there in Europe, China or Russia. Air shows are about PR and reinforcing or changing narratives. They also have an industrial and financial component but nothing even remotely connected to the showcasing of combat effectiveness of a particular new hardware.
    Last edited by bring_it_on; 17th June 2017 at 15:21.
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  6. #1806
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    Neither I, mine was not intended as a destructive critic, just to state how the F-35 was build over a pattern of military efficency and affordability, not for pulling out stunts for a crowd (not that any other plane was build along those guidelines, obviously).

  7. #1807
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    I've only seen the rehersals flight. But there are no reason to expect any deviations from these rehersals. Flight displays are all about routines..

    From a Fulcrum or Flanker perspective the F-35 is absolutly mediocre. If I were to praise anything then perhaps climb and some parts of acceleration..
    But again nothing out of the ordinary.
    We see the F-35 pilot do both of the old school tricks like lotsa roles and unload before entering high Alpha, in order to regain energy as fast as possible.
    Last edited by haavarla; 18th June 2017 at 17:37.
    Thanks

  8. #1808
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    I think the software on that plane is currently 3i which limits it to 7g. The demo itself is not particularly impressive, I was hoping the pilot would be more aggressive.

  9. #1809
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    For God's sake, let's hope not! It's development was just enough troubled as it was, least thing we need now it's a pilot taking some risk just for made it look better in an air show.
    In case you want to compete with Advanced Flankers and Eurocanards in aerobatics just use the F-22 instead.

  10. #1810
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  11. #1811
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcellogo
    Advanced Flankers and Eurocanards in aerobatics just use the F-22 instead.
    Apart from some post stall trick with TVC which kinda get old now, i don't find airshow of advanced Flanker, Eurocanards, or F-22 particularly any more impressive than airshows of F-15, F-16. Personally, i find airshow of early F-16 block look better, could be that i always more impressed with roll rate and acceleration rather than high AoA tricks
    Last edited by garryA; 17th June 2017 at 21:29.

  12. #1812
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    The demo itself is not particularly impressive, I was hoping the pilot would be more aggressive.

    Where did you get that idea - I thought the pilot was being aggressive enough - he was certainly doing a lot of hif´gh speed turn rates pulling a lot of G.

  13. #1813
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    The F-35 in the demo did exactly what it had to do: show it has F-16/F-18 like qualities.
    And that is what I see.
    Pilots have been telling us that for years but dismissed as not possible by critics who haven't been near a cockpit during their entire life.
    In turns it almost corners and we see nice acceleration and climb rate, again dismissed by many as not possible.
    Having poor acceleration and being underpowered is simply not true. Touch and go without afterburner is testimony to that.
    Again pilots have been telling us that for ages.
    It has the F-18 like High AoA manoeuvring possibilities which one could extend in future demo's to add drama to the show.Like for instance Finnish F-18 demo is doing.
    Also let's not forget that these pilots are Lockheed Martin test pilots including Billy Flynn. They are not dedicated air demo pilots who fly the routine for months on an almost daily basis in the season with a dedicated team.
    Not aggressive enough?
    Well I think they are aggressive enough for the purpose they are there and for this particular show.
    F-35 air show demo's will be developed the coming years starting with USAF in 2018 and we will see those demo's evolve in time, like I personally witnessed the demo of the Typhoon evolve into something special to watch after starting out as not to impressive.

  14. #1814
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    Main difference to me from older demos i could see on youtube etc. Is the way pilot is precise in roll control (earlier demos, they always needed a correction at the end of the rool). Don't know if it is due to pilot or FCS improvement.
    Apart from that nice demo, yes, albeit not as "sharp" as some i've seen. (which canbe explained by the small size of the box and the inertia of a large fighter).

  15. #1815
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    FLEX@
    I don't think anyone on this forum mean to say the F-35 is sub par with F-18/16 on its envelope.
    And I'm a little puzzled by your point that these are LM test pilots doing the Flight display.. you understand what it takes to become a testpilot? Safe to say that is not the average fighter pilot. You would think they are expirienced flight Instructor prior to become a test pilot. And if we take Sukhoi, they mostly use their in-house testpilots when Airshow and flight display is happening. If we exlude the Swift's, Blue Eagles etc. So i don't see anything out of the ordinary with LM flying F-35 with their test pilot on Airshow.

    And about B.I.O. long post above; what is there for people to understand about AIRSHOW..? Its called AIRSHOW for a good reason! Do we really have to debate the meaning of Airshow now?

    What i really want to see from F-35 on flight display is a whole 360 hi Alpha or even better a 540 or 720 deg turn.
    Last edited by haavarla; 18th June 2017 at 10:25. Reason: Phone autocorrect from hell..
    Thanks

  16. #1816
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    Looks like it is going to be another rough day for the F-35 haters...

    (Reuters) - U.S. weapons maker Lockheed Martin Corp is in the final stages of negotiating a deal worth more than $37 billion (28.96 billion pounds) to sell a record 440 F-35 fighter jets to a group of 11 nations including the United States, two people familiar with the talks said.

    This would be the biggest deal yet for the stealthy F-35 jet as it is set to make its Paris Airshow debut this week. The sale represents a major shift in sales practices from annual purchases to more economic multi-year deals that lower the cost of each jet.

    The pricing of the jets was still not final, though the average price of the 440 jets was expected to be $85 million, the people said on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the negotiations publicly. The multi-year deal for the fighters will consist of three tranches over fiscal years 2018-2020.
    https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2017...exclusive.html

  17. #1817
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    More detail in this version of the article:

    The memorandum of understanding being negotiated between Lockheed and the customers aims to procure 135 or more jets in fiscal year 2018 for delivery in 2020 for about $88 million per jet, the people said. In the subsequent fiscal years, 2019 and 2020, procurement would ramp up to 150 or more jets per year. The average price in 2019 could be $85 million for the F-35 "A" variant and could drop below $80 million in 2020, the people said. That would mark the lowest price ever paid for an F-35, making this deal an important step in reducing the overall cost of each jet.
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-a...-idUSKBN1990S8

    If this is accurate it essentially marks the end of the era of 4th generation fighters. Sure some will be produced post 2020, but none of them are going to be remotely competitive with an F-35 at <$80 million.

    It wasn't long ago that some felt the death spiral was imminent...

    Quote Originally Posted by LowObservable
    The Dec 2011 SAR is now out. Watch for cost numbers to break loose pretty soon.

    IOT&E does not complete until April 2019 ("threshold" is October).

    Op cost per hour is 42 per cent more than the F-16C/D, in USAF service in 2011.

    The death spiral beckons.
    http://forum.keypublishing.com/showt...-Thread/page36

  18. #1818
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    Also, per the graphic GarryA posted it appears LM is going official with 750 nautical miles (1390km) as a combat radius. (which fits with the several other sources out there)

    Pretty well finishes putting that debate to bed.

  19. #1819
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    er, ok, I've started watching the demo... and honestly.. boring... stopped around the middle or so... turn right.. roll (slow).. turn right, roll (slow).. turn right... don't know how you can compare it to the demos of the F-16.. even the later ones I saw, with heavier aircraft, were way more dynamic from the start...

    anyway...

  20. #1820
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    The memorandum of understanding being negotiated between Lockheed and the customers aims to procure 135 or more jets in fiscal year 2018 for delivery in 2020 for about $88 million per jet, the people said. In the subsequent fiscal years, 2019 and 2020, procurement would ramp up to 150 or more jets per year. The average price in 2019 could be $85 million for the F-35 "A" variant and could drop below $80 million in 2020, the people said. That would mark the lowest price ever paid for an F-35, making this deal an important step in reducing the overall cost of each jet.
    Its very unclear to me..
    Is this still the $85mill WITHOUT engine figure?
    Thanks

  21. #1821
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    And what mean average? It was repeated ad nauseam that all the partecipants would be able to get the planes at the same price , don't thinkkthat a chute on Norway's ones would change things so much.
    Unless, in those 440 there are some F-35 B by the way?

  22. #1822
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    Its very unclear to me..
    Is this still the $85mill WITHOUT engine figure?
    News reports are news reports and unless one can personally contact the writer it is not easy to deduce. However, SAR has URF's of both the Engine and the rest of the contracted aircraft and one can easily calculate the cost. Same for official budget information supplied by the services. The URF target for the JPO of $80-$85 Million includes engine and fees.

    Similarly, when the JPO releases its negotiated URF costs (generally for the CTOL variant), it refers to the unit price (URF) that includes everything including contractor fees.

    And what mean average? It was repeated ad nauseam that all the partecipants would be able to get the planes at the same price , don't thinkkthat a chute on Norway's ones would change things so much.
    Unless, in those 440 there are some F-35 B by the way?
    Partner nations share the recurring cost i.e. the URF's will be about the same adjusting for minor customizations that may be present for some specific partner but absent for others. However there are non-recurring costs out there. What the support in terms of what hardware and services Norway buys or contracts may be different from what Italy does etc which may be totally different from the unit non-reccuring expense the US encounters for a given lot.
    Last edited by bring_it_on; 18th June 2017 at 21:10.
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  23. #1823
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    The concept of making a valid assessment on performance of any airframe from a youtube clip is deluded...

  24. #1824
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    Its very unclear to me..
    Is this still the $85mill WITHOUT engine figure?
    I don't know why this keeps getting brought up. Since LRIP-9, quoted F-35 prices have included the engine. They're now talking about (presumably) LRIP-12, LRIP-13, and LRIP-14, and you're still asking about if the price includes the engine?

  25. #1825
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    I don't know why this keeps getting brought up. Since LRIP-9, quoted F-35 prices have included the engine. They're now talking about (presumably) LRIP-12, LRIP-13, and LRIP-14, and you're still asking about if the price includes the engine?
    It's a recurring question even after the JPO even in their official releases mention that the URF stated includes engines and fees.


    I've posted VIDEOS of the PEO going on record of stating the same regarding his URF target.
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  26. #1826
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    Is this still the $85mill WITHOUT engine figure?
    Per the FY2018 USAF Budget doc, $87 mil F-35A Rec Flyaway WITH engine.

    Page 87
    http://www.saffm.hq.af.mil/Portals/8...-23-155339-030
    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

  27. #1827
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    Not as agile as the Super Hornet nor as fast as the Typhoon? Don’t you believe it, says Lockheed Martin test pilot Billie Flynn. He will put the F-35A through its paces at Le Bourget this week, proving that the aircraft is more maneuverable than any he has flown, he says, including Boeing’s F/A-18, the Eurofighter, and his own company’s F-16 Viper.

    “After 10 years since first flight, with our first opportunity to demonstrate the capabilities and the maneuverability of the F-35, we are going to crush years of misinformation about what this aircraft is capable of doing,” Flynn said in an interview with Aviation Week.

    The F-35’s maneuverability is all the more impressive because, unlike the F-16s that perform at air shows, the Joint Strike Fighter flying the demonstration this week is fully combat-ready. Flynn’s F-35A will move easily through complex aerial maneuvers loaded with everything it needs to go to war.
    Read more: http://aviationweek.com/paris-air-sh...misinformation

    So finally everybody will see that the F-35 is no slouch after all -- in addition to great kinematic performance there is also the stealth, the sensors, and the sensor fusion, and the data links, and the price that is finally getting down to acceptable levels....

    Only those who cannot get the F-35 will consider anything else... why pay more and get much less?

  28. #1828
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    Flynn does make a good point in that an F-35 performing at an air show is very different from a stripped down 4th generation fighter in that it has everything but its weapons.

    I have never subscribed to the air show video school of aircraft assessments, but even if we were to undertake such a misguided effort we would have to find examples of planes performing with a realistic combat load.

  29. #1829
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    Are previously paid upfront cost prolonged with 'F35 price index' (not CPI) added to cost?

  30. #1830
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    The flight demonstration is carefully scripted to highlight the kinematic capabilities of the F-35A, particularly its slow-speed handling qualities, said Flynn. He will start with an afterburner takeoff, almost immediately pointing his nose to the sky and letting the aircraft climb away essentially vertically. This impressive move is unique to the F-22 and the F-35, he said.

    Next, Flynn will reverse back in front of the crowd, and perform a “square loop” to show the aircraft’s instantaneous pitch capability and high angle-of-attack (AOA) maneuverability. Then he will turn around, reverse back in front of the crowd, and perform a slow-speed, high-AOA pass. Afterward, he will light the afterburner and fly straight up into the sky once again.

    From there, Flynn will pull up vertically in front of the crowd and execute a maximum AOA “power loop,” where the aircraft flips on its back—another signature Raptor move. Then he will initiate a spiral at 50 degrees AOA, called a “pedal turn,” which he says will be the most impressive part of the entire routine.

    After reversing again in front of the crowd, the last move is a maximum-G, 360-deg. turn, which highlights the maximum-rate, minimum-radius-turn capability of the aircraft, Flynn said. The F-35 in its current 3i configuration is limited to 7g; when the fighter gets its full war-fighting capability with the final 3F software, it will be able to pull 9gs.

    “This aircraft down low in this environment is an absolute monster,” said Flynn. ”It is more powerful, it is more aggressive than any of us, including those of us that fly the F-35, would have imagined before we began this flight-demo process.”


    http://aviationweek.com/paris-air-sh...misinformation

    Ok, so some obvious hyperbole here... "an afterburner takeoff, almost immediately pointing his nose to the sky and letting the aircraft climb away essentially vertically" is a move unique to the F-22 and F-35? Unless there is some fine distinction that didn't make it into the article I don't see why that would be.

    Nonetheless, it looks like they have put some real effort into this show. The 50 degree AoA demo is nifty. It will be interesting to see what they can do once they are free to go all the way to 9Gs.

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