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Thread: 2017 F-35 news and discussion thread

  1. #1981
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    Nice sum up.

  2. #1982
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    Dutch Air force want more F-35's.
    If possible up to 68.

    https://translate.google.com/transla...66c&edit-text=

    Google translation is almost spot on. Note PvdA is a socialist party. That they are the ones who capped the budget will not be a surprise.
    The socialists were obliterated during last election, so it's doubtful that they will have any influence on the ongoing talks and decisions.
    If the Air Force get their way and up the numbers of aircraft, maybe others will follow too.
    Who knows.

  3. #1983
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    Also note the sorry state of the current F-16 fleet. NONE is available for mission participation.

  4. #1984
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    And also note the bad economy.. for which was THE reason they reduced thr order in the first place.

    That the Airforce want more toys.. a real shocker..
    Thanks

  5. #1985
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    It isn't a matter of wanting more toys, rather meeting the minimum of defense needs. 68 aircraft would be bare minimum to fill three active squadrons (RNLAF F-16 squadrons have ~15-16 aircraft). 37 aircraft wouldn't even fill two squadrons considering training and support airframes (four aren't even going to leave US.... or I should say the OT aircraft aren't going to be based outside of US as they were recently in Netherlands)
    Last edited by FBW; 7th July 2017 at 17:01.

  6. #1986
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    Quote Originally Posted by haavarla
    And also note the bad economy.. for which was THE reason they reduced thr order in the first place.

    That the Airforce want more toys.. a real shocker..
    First people complain that the Netherlands aren't buying enough F-35s, then they complain when they talk about buying more...

  7. #1987
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    Lol! That was amusing hops.

    @FBW
    The Required number of jets for any Airforce is not carved on Stone. Its a vuage and dynamic prosess. Ofcourse any Airforce will tell you this is THE minimum amount of jets we can have.. but come on! Look back from the 80'S. The figures has dropped. Now do you think it was the Airforce that went;
    - Hey we don't need 120 jets! Lets reduce��

    Its more about funding than Threat assessment. Its the Politicians whom decide how many jets.

    But hey! I'm sure both LM and US "knows" just the right figure for every other airforce out there��
    Last edited by haavarla; 7th July 2017 at 23:40.
    Thanks

  8. #1988
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    LRIP-11 Contracting Activity 7/7/17

    Lockheed Martin Corp., Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Co., Fort Worth, Texas, is being awarded a $5,577,714,486 modification to a previously awarded F-35 Lightning II low-rate initial production (LRIP) Lot 11 advance acquisition contract (N00019-16-C-0033). The LRIP 11 contract contains requirements for the Air Force, Marine Corps, Navy, international partner nations, and foreign military sales (FMS) customers. This modification provides for the procurement of 74 fiscal 2017 aircraft, comprised of 48 F-35A aircraft for the Air Force, 18 F-35B aircraft for the Marine Corps, and eight F-35C aircraft for the Navy and Marine Corps. In addition, this modification adds funding to previously awarded fiscal 2015 and 2016 aircraft contract line item numbers for the U.S. Services. Work will be performed in Fort Worth, Texas (55 percent); El Segundo, California (15 percent); Warton, United Kingdom (10 percent); Orlando, Florida (5 percent); Nashua, New Hampshire (5 percent); Baltimore, Maryland (5 percent); and Cameri, Italy (5 percent), and is expected to be completed in December 2020. Fiscal 2015, 2016, and 2017 aircraft procurement (Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corps) funds in the amount of $4,491,634,930 will be obligated at time of award, $275,641,724 of which will expire at the end of the fiscal year. This modification combines purchases for the Air Force ($3,428,766,751; 61 percent); Navy ($1,444,492,090; 26 percent); and the Marine Corps ($704,455,645; 13 percent). An undefinitized not-to-exceed contract modification to fund procurement of 50 F-35 Partner and FMS aircraft for $2.2 billion is anticipated within the month of July 2017. The Naval Air Systems Command, Patuxent River, Maryland, is the contracting activity.
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  9. #1989
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    A Closer Look at Stealth, Part 5: Nozzles and Exhausts
    F135 Engine

    In designing the nozzle of the F135 engine that powers the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, Pratt & Whitney aimed to rival the low signature of the nozzles on its previous F119, while beating it on maintenance costs. The F135 nozzle comprises two overlapping sets of 15 flaps, offset so outer flaps are centered on the gaps between the inner flaps. The inner flaps are thin, have metallic exteriors and straight sides and terminate in inverted “V”s. The sides create rectangular gaps between them with the nozzle fully diverged. The outer flaps, which Pratt calls “tail feathers,” are thicker and covered in tiles with blended facets. They terminate in chevrons that overlap the ends of the inner flaps to create a sawtooth edge. Toward the fuselage, the tiles end in four chevrons and are covered by additional tiles (not attached to the engines in this photo) that terminate fore and aft in chevrons and interlock with adjacent tiles in sawtooth-fashion.

    The F135 nozzle likely suppresses IR signature using multiple methods. The trailing-edge chevrons create shed vortices, shortening the plume, while their steeper axial angle likely directs cooler ambient air into the exhaust flowpath. The inner surfaces of both sets of flaps are white and covered in minute holes similar to those on the F119, which might supply cooling air. The space between the tail feathers and the trailing chevrons may also contain ejectors to provide even more cooling air. The tiles and inner flap surfaces are likely composed of low-emissivity, RAM composites."
    http://aviationweek.com/defense/clos...images-1655211
    P/S:
    Bypass ratio and infrared


    Serrated nozzle
    Last edited by mig-31bm; 9th July 2017 at 00:28.

  10. #1990
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    Quote Originally Posted by haavarla
    But hey! I'm sure both LM and US "knows" just the right figure for every other airforce out there
    Where did you get the idea that LM or the US was telling the Netherlands how many to buy? I think you know LM will happily sell them as many F-35s as the Dutch decide they want.

  11. #1991
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    It wasn't long ago that our resident (and now thankfully departed) trolls were shaking their tiny fists and insisting that IR stealth was simply impossible.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere
    There are absolutely zero indications about the F-35 having lower IR signature than others.
    http://forum.keypublishing.com/showt...ake-III/page77

    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere
    I have never claimed those types have fielded any magical IR suppression technologies.. Heat is there and it can't be simply dissipated without a notice.. If you concentrate on deletion of thermal hot spots, then you get a larger warmer object. What have you achieved? What can an IR missile detect first? A 0.1 sqm area of 1000K or a 3sqm of 250K?

    All types with AESA radars field some form of internal cooling, usually using fuel as heat exchange medium.. Nothging new here, either, it's only the F-35 gang who are screaming IR STEALTH !!!
    http://forum.keypublishing.com/showt...ake-III/page76

    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere
    An effort to use fuel to effectively cool the aircraft to the extent that it cannot be detected or that the detection range will be reduced by a meaningful figure equals to an effort to hide an elephant on a Times Square by dressing it up in a red pyjama. There is a reason why producers do not talk about IR stealth anymore and instead focus on DIRCM.
    http://forum.keypublishing.com/showt...wn-risk/page28

  12. #1992
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    i could look at F-35 from a Mistral visor during PAS 17, and flame is well hidden.

  13. #1993
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    It isn't a matter of wanting more toys, rather meeting the minimum of defense needs. 68 aircraft would be bare minimum to fill three active squadrons (RNLAF F-16 squadrons have ~15-16 aircraft). 37 aircraft wouldn't even fill two squadrons considering training and support airframes (four aren't even going to leave US.... or I should say the OT aircraft aren't going to be based outside of US as they were recently in Netherlands)
    Agree (yes! it CAN happen)

  14. #1994
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    So once all the extra jets Congress added in FY15 and 16 are factored in it comes to 91 US Aircraft in Lot-11, and 50 aircraft for Partners and FMS customers for a total of 141 aircraft. this is 50+% higher than the 90 Aircraft lot-10.

    DOD awards Lockheed $5.5B F-35 Lot 11 undefinitized contract action


    The Defense Department has awarded Lockheed Martin a contract worth up to $5.5 billion to deliver 141 F-35 aircraft as part of the 11th low-rate initial production lot. The F-35 joint program office confirmed it is an undefinitized contract action.

    "The U.S. Department of Defense will continue to negotiate the LRIP 11 contract with Lockheed Martin and expects to definitize by the end of the year," F-35 spokesman Joe DellaVedova wrote in a July 7 statement. "We are confident the final negotiated Lot 11 aircraft unit prices will be less than Lot 10."

    The per-unit price for Lot 11 is not yet settled.

    Lot 11 includes 48 F-35A jets for the Air Force, 18 F-35B aircraft for the Marine Corps, eight F-35C aircraft for both the Navy and Marines and 50 jets for international partners and foreign military sales. Seventeen additional aircraft are included for the United States because of a congressional mandate.


    The award is the first of two to provide initial funding for Lot 11. The first award is for U.S. aircraft, while a second award is anticipated later this summer to provide UCA authorization for F-35 international partners and foreign military sales customers, according to Lockheed Martin spokesman Mark Johnson.

    "We appreciate the actions taken by the JPO to ensure delivery of F-35s to our warfighter customers," Johnson wrote in a July 7 statement.

    Concurrently, the JPO is negotiating a Lot 11 propulsion contract with Pratt & Whitney. The Pentagon anticipates completing negotiations and definitizing both the LRIP 11 contract with Lockheed Martin and P&W by the end of 2017, according to DellaVedova.
    Last edited by bring_it_on; 8th July 2017 at 10:58.
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  15. #1995
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    And also note the bad economy.. for which was THE reason they reduced thr order in the first place
    No it wasn't.
    The amount of money budgeted for the replacement of the F-16 was way before the economic crisis.
    Besides we are talking about The Netherlands here and not some third world country.
    They did not take into account the delay in development of the JSF and the inflation rates.
    They still don't, but with the socialist (finally) out of the equation and Trump clearly stating that there will be no free handouts and with added tensions in Europe and the World, governments (including yours) feel the urge to invest in defence.
    When there is room for 2 billion, surely some of that can go to the Air Force, although others want to get a piece of that too (submarines).
    With prices of the F-35 coming down and Block Buy impending, I am pretty sure we will procure more aircraft than 37.

  16. #1996
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    four aren't even going to leave US
    Five will stay in the US. One of them is a test aircraft. Rest for training.
    But who knows. Dutch and Italians are planning together to get some sort of training facility for partners of JSF in Italy.
    Some of the F-35 training aircraft might me based in Italy (if not all).
    Also expect the announcement of the purchase of a new basic trainer soon.

  17. #1997
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    Four are part of the JOTT fleet at Edwards currently. Whether some of those are reassigned for training in U.S. or not, they will need more than four training airframes.

    The 2018 beddown plan shows only one staying at Edwards and one at Luke. So they may be on the move soon.
    Last edited by FBW; 8th July 2017 at 13:24.

  18. #1998
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    F-35Bs at Nellis for Red Flag 17-3 which kicks off on Monday. The Air Force's F-35As will also be there marking the first time the two types have been together at Red Flag -





    Last edited by bring_it_on; 8th July 2017 at 16:51.
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  19. #1999
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBW View Post
    Four are part of the JOTT fleet at Edwards currently. Whether some of those are reassigned for training in U.S. or not, they will need more than four training airframes.

    The 2018 beddown plan shows only one staying at Edwards and one at Luke. So they may be on the move soon.
    I remembered incorrectly, 323 squadron at Edwards has two F-35's. The next lot of 8 ordered by the Dutch aren't due until 2018-19.

  20. #2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by bring_it_on
    F-35Bs from at Nellis for Red Flag 17-3 which kicks off on Monday. The Air Force's F-35As will also be there marking the first time the two types have been together at Red Flag -
    It is strange to think that in the space of 3-4 years the F-35 is going from a relatively rare aircraft to a relatively common one.

  21. #2001
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    It is strange to think that in the space of 3-4 years the F-35 is going from a relatively rare aircraft to a relatively common one.
    Yes and at 70+ aircraft deliveries per lot to the US services starting pretty soon things are going to grow very very fast.
    Last edited by bring_it_on; 9th July 2017 at 11:55.
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  22. #2002
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    But still a LRIP. This add to the natural state of confusion.
    How easy was it when "Mark" where what characterized every growth of the aircraft (think of the British Lightning for ex.).
    We have now a total LRIP order that will surpass the total production of the Rafale or Gripen.

  23. #2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomcatViP
    But still a LRIP. This add to the natural state of confusion.
    How easy was it when "Mark" where what characterized every growth of the aircraft (think of the British Lightning for ex.).
    We have now a total LRIP order that will surpass the total production of the Rafale or Gripen.
    With 141 F-35s in LRIP 12 that annual production lot alone will nearly equal the entire Rafale production run to date. (though by the time LRIP 12 is produced the Rafale will have climbed somewhat)

    That gives a sense for just how different the scale of the F-35 program is relative to many other recent projects. The Rafale, Gripen NG, F-22... all have order books/production runs of 200ish aircraft. (obviously the total numbers of Rafales and Gripen NGs remain to be seen)

    The F-35 meanwhile is heading toward producing 150+ aircraft per year.

    That they still consider this "LRIP" is more than a little bit silly. Personally I would have moved straight into multi-year buys right after IOC was declared for the USAF. By that point it was obvious that no major show-stoppers were going to emerge. Obviously all early production jets will need some upgrades to bring them to the full 3F standard, but there are plans in place to do exactly that and there aren't going to be any orphaned planes.

  24. #2004
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    Very interestoing document about F-35 flight testing (thx stephen)

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B30...h6UHFPOTQ/view

  25. #2005
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    With 141 F-35s in LRIP 12 that annual production lot alone will nearly equal the entire Rafale production run to date. (though by the time LRIP 12 is produced the Rafale will have climbed somewhat)
    141 is in LOT-11, For LOT-12 we are currently looking at 147 plus whatever the NDAA adds in FY17 and FY18 which could be anywhere from 10-30 aircraft. Come to think of it, there will be more F-35s delivered per lot starting with LRIP-11 than there are combat coded F-22As.

    Very interestoing document about F-35 flight testing (thx stephen)

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B30...h6UHFPOTQ/view
    Why test pilots are a special bunch..
    Last edited by bring_it_on; 10th July 2017 at 14:16.
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  26. #2006
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    Uploaded to YouTube for ease of use & compatibility

    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

  27. #2007
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    That Youtube video reinforced my bias that computers are better pilots than humans, even better than highly skilled test pilots.

  28. #2008
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    The F-35 meanwhile is heading toward producing 150+ aircraft per year.

    That they still consider this "LRIP" is more than a little bit silly.
    Indeed. Along with "Oh, that's just the LRIP price', as if it's some sort of hand-crafted pre-production test batch.
    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
    Justinian

  29. #2009
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    The "LRIP Price" issue is that it's an annual contract instead of a Multi-Year Buy which in and of itself can save billions for the contract when used on an F-35 scale.
    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

  30. #2010
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    Indeed. Along with "Oh, that's just the LRIP price', as if it's some sort of hand-crafted pre-production test batch.
    LRIP price is relative to FRP price i.e. as production increases with these lots the closer you get to the target FRP cost. As things stand, the first hybrid Lot 12-14 deal will show the procurement trend as a result of the change in status (international aircraft purchased under Block buy, while US under EOQ) while the one following that will reflect an additional change of status (all aircraft under MYP). I think RAND estimated $1.5-$2 Billion saving over Lot 12-14 as a result of this arrangement. How low (compared to Lot-11) the unit price gets will be known once negotiations for these are completed through the end of 2018. LRIP 9 to LRIP 10 and LRIP 10 to LRIP 11 has and will show (10 to 11) as well as they establish higher production.

    Also, LRIP and FRP are milestone driven program production distinctions of production lots hence LRIP is used for pre M-C production lots. Internally the suppliers and the PO just refer to them as Lots.
    Last edited by bring_it_on; 11th July 2017 at 15:04.
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

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