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Thread: VTTS Hard Facts Finally Coming Home To Roost?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Boyle View Post
    I'd be curious how a 60 year old bomber is supposed to inspire future generations to technical careers...
    Strangely, I'm always inspired by the older designs; I look at what was achieved in designing a Vulcan, for example, and marvel that it was all achieved without all the computer processing power that modern designs rely on and that it was all designed by relatively small design teams working with drawing-boards and slide-rules...

    ...just think what those people could have done with the technology literally at my fingertip!
    WA$.

  2. #62
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    So what do people think the solution to the long-term preservation of XH558 is because it would be a shame to lose it now; it may not be the most representative Vulcan to reflect the service of the type but it is undoubtably the Vulcan that is in the best condition for preservation surely?

    To me what VTTS really need is a venue (under their control) as well as a Vulcan; one of the few assets XH558 still has is its ability to do a fast-taxi (at a time that one of the few other 'live' Vulcans is under serious threat).

    Unfortunately there isn't much chance of VTTS getting such a venue so, for me, the only real hope is giving-up XH558 to some other entity that both has a long-term secure (fast-taxi) venue.....but also doesn't have a Vulcan!

    Not many of those around!
    WA$.

  3. #63
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    Put it out of it's misery - lets not see the slow decline - break it up now & save all this speculation, wishes & hot air.

  4. #64
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    'It' isn't experiencing any misery, being an inanimate object!
    WA$.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by rochford View Post
    Put it out of it's misery - lets not see the slow decline - break it up now & save all this speculation, wishes & hot air.
    Is that the best you have got ? For insight, imagination, effort, and commitment to preservation - nil points

  6. #66
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    Maybe Maurice Kirk could ferry it somewhere. Less paperwork guff needed.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by rochford View Post
    Put it out of it's misery - lets not see the slow decline - break it up now & save all this speculation, wishes & hot air.

    This was a suggestion I made in another thread, half jokingly. The strongest argument I've seen against the scrapping route, beyond the emotive, is that the Heritage Lottery Funding requires the aircraft to remain in one piece. However I'm not sure exactly what would happen if VTTS, strapped for cash, decided to part 558 out to raise funds. My thoughts, as per elsewhere, is that VTTS can prove their usefulness post-flying-era by helping to keep other ground-running and static Vulcans in good nick. They apparently helped out with the white Vulcan at Woodford, so the precedent is there. Presumably they have quite an impressive cache of parts, tools and knowledge, so why squander it all away on one example of a ground-runner that his largely hidden from the public gaze? My other suggestion was to quickly but carefully dismantle 558. Firstly this saves on space, keeping overheads down. Secondly it gives you even more parts and materials to assist the other remaining Vulcans with. Everything else can be flogged to Vulcan obsessives (the type that stalk ex-Vulcan pilots at the VTTS stand at air displays to get all their signatures in wee books). Would they pay £200 for a presentation-mounted compressor blade from an Olympus? There must be any number of small, dispensable parts in XH558 that could be tarted up and sold off as decorative merchandise.

    Naturally I've copped a lot of flack for these opinions, but surely it isn't that much dafter than taking on a Canberra project and then quickly giving up on the whole charade.

    This page in particular smacks of desperation: http://www.vulcantothesky.org/how-to-help.html Recycle your old mobile phones and printer cartridges to keep a Vulcan languishing away in a shed in Doncaster? Sign me up!

  8. #68
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    Beyond the emotive?

    Is there anything other than the emotive when preserving old aeroplanes?
    WA$.

  9. #69
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    re:

    If VTTS goes into administration would the receivers have to abide by the rules of the lottery funding ie find her an owner that will keep her under cover?

    Its all very well saying ferry her, the question is where has a spare hangar, a nice big runway and easy access?
    pb::

  10. #70
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    To be clear - there is no suggestion that VTTS is going into administration, either now, or in the near future.

    Don't ever talk things like this up - rumour and gossip has caused so much damage to heritage projects in the past.

  11. #71
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    re

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce View Post
    To be clear - there is no suggestion that VTTS is going into administration, either now, or in the near future.

    Don't ever talk things like this up - rumour and gossip has caused so much damage to heritage projects in the past.
    I never said it was - I asked about the lottery conditions. These relate to whoever owns the aircraft?
    pb::

  12. #72
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    The problem I see is the location they chose to put it, if it was on the likes of Brunty or Elvington to a certain extent costs can be factored in and controlled, but to base a Historic aircraft on a growing commercial airport is financial suicide.

    If the likes of Doncaster grows and becomes popular then the strain on facilities at the airport will become critical, hangarage will be at a premium for those commercial companies wanting to operate from the site, and an old RAF bomber, no matter how popular, utilising those facilities will either have to foot the increasing leasing charges or give them up to those that will.

    That of course also then brings the "we plan to fast taxy it up and down" scenario to the fore, and with increased traffic at the airport, shutting the runway to allow them to carry out this pipe dream, as has already happened in the past, where the heck are you going to put the paying punters who come to see this? the plods and airport already vetoed those wanting to see it land for the last time, can you imagine the airport with the best will in the world allowing it to happen again???? and of course the policing bill would also need to be paid.

    As a destination for the final Vulcan resting place, it appears my concerns I stated at the time are playing out........ I still cannot get it out of my head that they are still paying one person £70K when they have a rapidly diminishing revenue stream. That's a lot of donations and tin rattling for what is just another grounded Vulcan now. As the facilities get smaller and they reduce staffing to save monies, one would have thought the logic would be to cut the higher salaries, not the lower ones to get more bang for your buck, be it black or any other colour.
    Last edited by TonyT; 9th January 2017 at 13:12.

  13. #73
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    I recall that many years ago when this was all starting up, there was talk of XH558's final destination being Duxford. Yes, I know they already have a Vulcan there, but it made sense to go there for fast taxi runs etc as there is a daily audience in an a highly regarded and popular museum. I do not know if this was the plan for sure, but it seemed logical. Far more then being stuck on an airfield which may, or may not grow, and require the Vulcan to move or leave, by whatever means.
    The grumbles about one person's salary has always been there, and could be the tipping point for the end of all this...........

  14. #74
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    Hi All,
    Please before getting mad at me I must apologise for regurgitating this article from the now defunct jets magazine. I only present this as I have heard nothing since the article was published. I have wrote to Mr Plemming concerning the article and if there had been any movement with the outlined suggestion within the article, as expected I received no reply sadly. It is an article concerning the outside chance of a possible return to flight after her last landing.

    Again I apologise as for some reason I cannot download the original Jets Magazine article via the editing suite the forum has... Anway her is another article basically outlining what the Jets version did. http://airsoc.com/articles/view/id/5...-vulcan-fly-on

    Above article courtesy of VTTS forum member Mac :- http://www.vulcantothesky.org/smf/in...p?topic=7514.0

    To conclude just one question really relating to the thread:- Has anybody come across the result of last years August meeting to discuss the feasibility ?

    Geoff.

  15. #75
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    I believe Rolls already extended the life of the engines, comparing it to a B-17 is a rather unfair comparison, yes they thing might be old, but it is in a different league. Now I do not know if the engines on the B-17 are on extension so to speak, but with a radial you can change pots etc and extend the life that way and there are companies still overhauling the engines.
    The Vulcan is a different matter, have you ever seen a jet engine let go... Its a bit like Brexit remainers, they have seen the writing on the wall, but still haven't got the message.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creaking Door View Post
    Beyond the emotive?

    Is there anything other than the emotive when preserving old aeroplanes?
    Educational purposes, allegories for 20th Century conflict, testaments to man's ingenuity, all that sort of cobblers...

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by rutley View Post
    I recall that many years ago when this was all starting up, there was talk of XH558's final destination being Duxford.
    If my memory is functioning correctly, the main issue with this was that nobody had actually consulted Duxford?

    Moggy
    "What you must remember" Flip said "is that nine-tenths of Cattermole's charm lies beneath the surface." Many agreed.

  18. #78
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    Akin to fly tipping on a grand scale !

  19. #79
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    Whatever happens to XH558 now, I would like to give a big thank you to all those involved in giving me and others, so much enjoyment over the years.
    I will treasure the memories of seeing her fly, for many years to come.
    Engine Failure:.... A condition which occurs when all fuel tanks mysteriously become filled with air.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~Alan~ View Post
    I would like to give a big thank you to all those involved in giving me and others, so much enjoyment over the years.
    I will treasure the memories of seeing her fly, for many years to come.
    Yep, me too, but I still cannot help but think the lack of planning a seemingly sustainable "end game" for '558 in her retirement risks taking the gloss off their engineering achievements to date? As has been said, the final chapters of the VTTS plan always seemed to stretch the imagination in terms of chances of a successful outcome, even more so than the continued operation of her (against all the odds) as a flying example...

    No one could fault the logic behind why they chose Finningley/Robin Hood in terms of access to hangar space (in short term at least)and runway servicability for the hoped for fast runs etc, it was the funding (and likely issues with commercial pressure on hangar space/runway time) of keeping her on a live airport that was harder to understand.

    I haven't followed progress on the 'engineering academy' side of the VTTS retirement plan - has that training organisation actually got off the ground yet (pardon the pun) i.e. with students and apprentices already undergoing teaching, or does it still only exist as a plan for the future? With a move to smaller hangar, and need to fit out the new smaller building before it can be used, I fear the delay may hinder any chances of getting the academy up and running in a sustainable fashion? I doubt many prospective trainees/students will gamble on booking a place at a non-existent but "coming soon" seat of learning if they can find an established college/tech already offering the same course on an established campus?

    I wish I could be more positive, as I feel the engineers who put in the hours restoring/maintaining her, and the public and benefactors who funded her return, deserve better than to hear/read so many negative comments, but it is what it is, and they can and should be proud of what they achieved up to the point that she was 'retired' to the hangar.

    The responsibility for lack of a suitably robust game-plan to ensure her longevity in retirement probably lays elsewhere within VTTS?

  21. #81
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    We spent the early years of the Vulcan flight programme criticising nearly everything they proposed, and did. They confounded most of their critics, and got the thing off the ground, then successfully operated it through to retirement.

    Lets not write them off just yet.

  22. #82
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    Looking at the web page the news on the Canberra is good, basically not a project which has been shelved...
    http://www.vulcantothesky.org/smf/in...9.msg79165#new
    The web page forum of VTTS does have some useful posts from people actually involved with engineering and does mention the frustration of having misleading and incorrect posts appearing on other forums in particular UKAR.

  23. #83
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    The aircraft should have and still could pass into the ownership of the club rather than the operating company.
    If the 'hop' is possible then Scampton has a runway and hangars that are protected. It has / will have The Bomber Command Museum.

    I could get all angry but it would be nothing me and others have not said for years. They had us over a barrel to pay their wages. We enjoyed it while we could. Its over and one day it will be scrapped at DSA.

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    Yes RAF Scampton is another idea they announced big heritage plans for lincolnshire ...what a good idea

  25. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creaking Door View Post
    Strangely, I'm always inspired by the older designs...
    Granted, but by the very fact you're on this forum sets you apart from most would-be engineers/designers.
    Would the Flying Scotsman inspire future intercity rail designers?
    Possibly, but the technology carryover is darn near nonexistent...they'll ask where's the carbon fibre and web interface?
    Likewise, the Vulcan's 1950s technology won't be of much use in designing the next generation of plastic, electric, efficient transports.

    True, seeing old aircraft might inspire them to go into aircraft instead of say, autonomous self-driving transport pods, but there are plenty of museums around for that.

    Without some professionally designed education plans, the idea of keeping an old jet around to "inspire" unborn youths looks to me more like a rationalization for keeping a large metal doorstop around than a pragmatic rationale.
    Last edited by J Boyle; 12th January 2017 at 23:07.
    There are two sides to every story. The truth is usually somewhere between the two.

  26. #86
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    For the Aeroplane readers amongst us, there is a long interview with Robert Pleming in the latest edition.

    Very interesting, and well worth a read, whether you are a critic or fan of the Vulcan to the Sky project!

    Cheers

    Paul
    The most usless commodity in aerobatics is the amount of sky above you!

  27. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Boyle View Post
    Without some professionally designed education plans, the idea of keeping an old jet around to "inspire" unborn youths looks to me more like a rationalization for keeping a large metal doorstop around than a pragmatic rationale.
    I agree; all these worthy education plans sound like they were something put in place to justify the public funding.

    My question is why should the Vulcan project, for example, be made to jump through these hoops, even for a relatively modest, and certainly short-term period of public funding?

    Do all the publicly funded art collections have to justify their huge expenditure by inspiring future artists? Do the publicly funded orchestra, opera and ballet organisations have to justify their expenditure by inspiring future performers? Does the Natural History Museum have to justify its existence by inspiring future zoologists? Do the many, many publicly funded historic buildings have to justify their existence by inspiring future architects? Or do the various pre-historic collections of museum artefacts have to justify their existence by inspiring future archaeologists?

    Now I'm sure in most of these cases the answer is 'yes, they do' and I'm not for a second suggesting that any of these endeavours aren't worthy and deserving of their public funding but I certainly feel that preservation of, for example, a Cold-War Vulcan, has to work extra hard at justify their 'importance' for preservation by the nation.
    WA$.

  28. #88
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    Waste of money? On what grounds? And compared to what?

    Do you think that the BBMF, for example, is a 'waste of money' too?

    I'm not sure what the split was between public and private funding for the VTTS project was but surely any objection by you can only be over the public funding.
    Last edited by Creaking Door; 12th January 2017 at 09:46.
    WA$.

  29. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~Alan~ View Post
    Whatever happens to XH558 now, I would like to give a big thank you to all those involved in giving me and others, so much enjoyment over the years.
    Unfortunately those primarily responsible, at Marshall Aerospace, seldom receive any thanks for their hard work and for the vast sums of money they poured into the project without hope of repayment.

    In 2015 they wrote-off £1.292 million owed to them by VTTS. That puts volunteer contributions into perspective.

  30. #90
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    I very much agree ! Without the input of MA none of it would have happened!

    As to funding -why should the project get preferential treatment? There is no need for an academy to be formed round her. There is the BAe Systems training academy just up the road at Humberside. Why would young people wish to training on a 1960's jet when they can train with BAe on Hawks and get paid for it
    with a career ahead of them.

    All I see at Finningley is a museum which cannot in any way pay for itself ! If I wish for any public funding to be spent - it can go to the already established museums in the area which run on small budgets and need more hangarage.

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