Key.Aero Network
Register Free

Page 1 of 14 1234511 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 411

Thread: VTTS Hard Facts Finally Coming Home To Roost?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    8,240

    VTTS Hard Facts Finally Coming Home To Roost?

    I did wonder why this never got a mention, has the cash cow finally dried up? It does sound like and excuse to explain the move... how long until she is parked outside??

    http://www.vulcantothesky.org/Transformation.html

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Chester Le Street, Co Durham
    Posts
    932
    Was mentioned at the time but not much commented on

    http://forum.keypublishing.com/showt...58#post2352028

    Maintaining aviation heritage assets at Commercial airports is very difficult when hangar space and land has a commercial market

    Lottery grants are a great idea but do come this conditions, one of which for XH558 was keeping the aircraft under cover.

    Unfortunately static aircraft do not generate the cash required to pay commercial rates for a hangar and full time staff

    Now that XH558 is grounded it has the same significance as XM655 at Wellesbourne and XL426 at Southend.

    Perhaps the Trust should have talked to the Lottery long before retirement so that a more realistic long term home could have been found for the aircraft with out the restriction of keeping it under cover

    Setting all of this aside what was achieved was quite fantastic and way beyond my expectations
    Dave Charles
    Historian 607 (County of Durham) Squadron
    Vice Chair North East Land Sea Air Museums (NELSAM)

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Stamford Lincs
    Posts
    9,652
    Adding further aircraft to the mix at Finningley will add little to the visitor experience. Within a fairly short distance there are three well established museums that already do heritage well.

    What the trust need to grasp is the days of a salary operation are over if they think they can make any success of the operation !

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    1,542
    This was entirely predictable. And yes, she will end up outside as the funding dries up and the operations at the airport expand. There was only ever one reason why she ended up staying at Doncaster - VTTS making money.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    East Sussex, UK
    Posts
    1,086
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderbird167 View Post

    Now that XH558 is grounded it has the same significance as XM655 at Wellesbourne and XL426 at Southend.
    Based on the fact that, as I understand it, many systems were removed etc as part of the return to flight, it might be argued that, apart from being the "Last flying Vulcan" and as such an example of dogged determination to overcome the naysayers, she may actually be historically less significant than the more "operationally representative" examples at Wellesbourne and Southend?

    Yep, hats off to all who helped get her back into the air, but the 'end-game' was always the seemingly less well thought-through aspect of the whole enterprise. If VTTS could not meet their goals in terms of income from hangar utilisation post-grounding, then they should be asking whether "downsizing" will really make much difference. Large or small, perhaps it is the location as a whole that is the problem in terms of attracting income from "Vulvcan hangar" rentals. Unknown income, and the threat that hangar space on a live airport was always at risk of being in demand for other enterprises that would generate more cash income for the airport owners....it never made for a sound business plan.

    Wherever '558 ended up, her long-term preservation exposed to the elements would be a major challenge, but use of hangar space on a live airport, whilst welcome, was always going to be at risk of being withdrawn, or of facing increasing rental costs due to commercial pressures.


    Maybe she should have gone to Elvington alongside the Victor (from memory they don't have a Vulcan there?), or back to Brunty, but I don't think either of those locations has available hangar space at peppercorn rent either. However, they may have been less problematic in terms of availability of runways for "fast taxi-runs" etc, whoch may have generated income for VTTS, and kept her in the public eye a little more. From memory I don't think '558 has moved under her own power since her final taxi-in at Finningley has she - I don't recall seeing news of any fast taxi runs t Finningley in the media?

    I wish them well in the new, smaller, hangar, but cannot help but wonder how sound/secure that move will prove to be in the longer term.

    Paul F

    - Presumably the newly restored Supermarine Swift will be relocated to a new indoor site somewhat sooner than '558?

    I hope so, we can afford to lose '558 to corrosion (we do, after all, have a number of other Vulcans in UK museums/collections etc), but IMHO the long term preservation of that Swift is more important.

    (Ducks and runs for cover)

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Chester Le Street, Co Durham
    Posts
    932
    It is easy to be suspicious of the motives behind VTTS

    The choice of Doncaster was driven by the requirement to have the aircraft under cover

    There are few other locations that could accommodate the Vulcan Operation. It could not operate from an RAF airfield as it was principally a weekend activity and our RAF seem to close on a Friday lunch time

    Which of the UK Aviation museums could have put the aircraft inside that did not already have a Vulcan ?

    If the requirement to have it inside had been relaxed on retirement it could have been flown to Bruntingthorpe or Elvington where it would have been looked after and still had the opportunity to be kept live.
    Dave Charles
    Historian 607 (County of Durham) Squadron
    Vice Chair North East Land Sea Air Museums (NELSAM)

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Reading
    Posts
    1,067
    A well-publicised funding drive, started early enough, and the aircraft could have been loaned to eg. Elvington together with a ring-fenced sum to pay for a new hangar large enough to take it, plus Victor XL231 and some of the various other Cold War runners already on site. Win-win for both parties I'd have thought, and the Vulcan would have sat outside for no more than a few months at most. Ho hum.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    54
    Well that didnt take long who is going to travel all the way to doncaster to see a vulcan do a static engine run,should have gone to a museum with a live runway ie.Elvington ,theres plenty of attractions in near-by York for the rest of the family lol.Here goes another iconic piece of UK history thats still living and breathing.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Just S of Stansted TMZ Fairsted
    Posts
    3,092
    Could XH558 do one more hop?
    SMOKE SMOKE GO!
    TA out

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    canada
    Posts
    12,416
    Was wondering the same thing.. maybe fly her out top Elvington
    Cheers,Peter
    "Merlins always drip oil, when they don't....worry!"

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    8,240
    Last edited by TonyT; 5th January 2017 at 16:27.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    WORCESTER
    Posts
    347

    last hop!

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    Was wondering the same thing.. maybe fly her out top Elvington
    well good luck on this one! ,I mean i'm only a used car salesman, but when I mentioned that 558 should go somewhere so she could be 'live' with other examples of the V force I was hammered down by the know alls and apparent specialists on here. VTTS were always on a downward slide once the bomber was grounded. it was obvious from the outset that putting what is now just a museum piece in the middle of a commercial airport wasn't going to last.so I agree, get it up once more. take it to Brunty, (if they'll have it) to be honest I would say NO now, we weren't good enough 18 months ago so stick it! , but that's just me, The Canberra was a pipe dream, beautiful aeroplane but would never attract a crowd like the Vulcan nor the interest. a bit like comparing a Yak11 to a spitfire, both beautiful aircraft but which would pull a crowd or an individual to travel 200 miles to see it? The swift needs a good home too. no shortage of takers there I bet? easily transportable, a manageable project for even the most cash starved organisation. how much time and cash needs throwing at 558 NOW?, to get it up one more time for a final flight into a place where it has a future as a taxiable aircraft, not one that will be pushed out into the weeds once the money runs dry and the staff go off and find new projects to pay their mortgages.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    1,542
    Presumably a ferry flight wouldn't be out of the question? Subject to much bureaucracy and testing of course. The reason she cannot continue flying is due to no manufacturer support, but why would that be needed for a single ferry flight?

    I'd love to see her at Elvington, alongside the Victor, Nimrod and hopefully a Mirage IV

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Posts
    9,904
    As long as it has been appropriately maintained over the past year, there should be no reason why not.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Close to the last operational 11 Grp 'B of B' airfield
    Posts
    1,987
    Quote Originally Posted by Tin Triangle View Post
    A well-publicised funding drive, started early enough, and the aircraft could have been loaned to eg. Elvington together with a ring-fenced sum to pay for a new hangar large enough to take it, plus Victor XL231 and some of the various other Cold War runners already on site. Win-win for both parties I'd have thought, and the Vulcan would have sat outside for no more than a few months at most. Ho hum.
    Exactly.......I said that (as did many others) some 18 months ago.

    No way was RH Airport the right place for it to land for the last time.

    But.......VTTSH know better, or rather, they thought they knew better....
    I was with it all the way until letting the brakes off..........

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    54
    If the cash is the only problem cant there be one last fund raise to pay for either ferry flight or hauled out in bits to the final destination its surely one you could justify the end result.If the enthusiats of the aviation world could give one last donation or to me it will end up being a rotting pile of scrap that should of been saved.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Where you wish you were.
    Posts
    8,996
    At the risk of sounding like a heretic....

    Is there anything in XH558's history (aside from being the last airworthy example) that makes it special?
    If not, perhaps any funds should be allocated to preserve or cover a more historic example?
    There are two sides to every story. The truth is usually somewhere between the two.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Posts
    9,904
    No, there isn't. As has already been said, it was extensively modified for civil operation. On the flip side, it is in much better condition than most of the others..

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    8,240
    Quote Originally Posted by J Boyle View Post
    At the risk of sounding like a heretic....

    Is there anything in XH558's history (aside from being the last airworthy example) that makes it special?
    If not, perhaps any funds should be allocated to preserve or cover a more historic example?
    I totally agree and have always said so, the only difference now to the other Vulcans scattered the world over is condition and the exhortant amount of money they are paying themselves as custodians from public donations that would fund a normal sized museum.
    Last edited by TonyT; 5th January 2017 at 20:48.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Close to the last operational 11 Grp 'B of B' airfield
    Posts
    1,987
    Quote Originally Posted by J Boyle View Post
    At the risk of sounding like a heretic....

    Is there anything in XH558's history (aside from being the last airworthy example) that makes it special?
    If not, perhaps any funds should be allocated to preserve or cover a more historic example?
    Well, 607 surely deserved that decades ago.............but it can't be too far off almost being too late for that one now, rumours are it's quite bad now.
    I was with it all the way until letting the brakes off..........

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Posts
    2,448
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce View Post
    No, there isn't. As has already been said, it was extensively modified for civil operation. On the flip side, it is in much better condition than most of the others..
    A couple of years ago, someone VERY senior on the engineering side of VTTS told me- while we stood under the thing in her hangar- 'It looks like a Vulcan but it ain't'.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Black Six
    Posts
    20,180
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul F View Post
    the long term preservation of that Swift is more important.
    I doubt anyone would argue with that statement.

    Moggy
    "What you must remember" Flip said "is that nine-tenths of Cattermole's charm lies beneath the surface." Many agreed.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Just S of Stansted TMZ Fairsted
    Posts
    3,092
    When you put people in charge of such things as the Vulcun and they get paid vast sums of money to make decisions then decisions they will make, normally the wrong ones as it does not matter to them they have been seen to of done their job, years later you find out what a crap job they make of things.
    It was banded around many a forum that Robin Hood was the wrong place, did they listen? No of course not, we are all idiots.

    Now where is my cup of tea
    SMOKE SMOKE GO!
    TA out

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    big sky country
    Posts
    1,107
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebird Mike View Post
    A couple of years ago, someone VERY senior on the engineering side of VTTS told me- while we stood under the thing in her hangar- 'It looks like a Vulcan but it ain't'.
    I cannot believe that very much was changed, if anything. The cost and bureaucratic process of raising modifications to cover alterations would have been impossible and why change something that worked for years in RAF service.
    We in the UK do not have the experimental category that the Americans have, they can make major alterations without difficulty, Reno race aircraft being good examples where engines from a different manufacturer are often fitted.

    Richard
    "Where are you from?"
    "America" Somebody laughed politely.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Preston, Lancashire
    Posts
    212
    I'm sure it's not a case of what may have been modified, but what has been removed to turn it into an 'Airshow Vulcan'. I'm thinking particularly of the Navigation and Bombing Sytem which includes H2S Mk9.

    Andy

  26. #26
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    608
    One way to deal with the matter once and for all might be to break it down into spares and make relevant parts available for the upkeep of other existing examples (that wouldn't pay peoples salaries though). Imagine that in the furutre there could be people discussing the composite nature of this or that Vulcan airframe and what was the "real" identity. It would seem strangely normal.

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    726
    Quote Originally Posted by AndyY View Post
    I'm sure it's not a case of what may have been modified, but what has been removed to turn it into an 'Airshow Vulcan'. I'm thinking particularly of the Navigation and Bombing Sytem which includes H2S Mk9.

    Andy
    Back in the day it was said that would be returned to cold war standard at the end of display flying. However that would of course ground it for good.

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    35
    Quote Originally Posted by smirky View Post
    Back in the day it was said that would be returned to cold war standard at the end of display flying. However that would of course ground it for good.
    558 was converted to a tanker in 82 and had all of its ECM gear removed to accommodate the house drum unit and also had many systems deleted during the restoration back to flight so she is a bit of a dog when it comes to originality in my view and no longer represents a cold war era Vulcan. Her only claim is that she was the first B2 delivered to the RAF but thats about it really. If it can be moved it should be done sooner rather than later or I fear it may well end up in the bin when the trust folds due to lack of funds.

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    darn sarf
    Posts
    1,337
    I saw 558 many times over the years at Bruntingthorpe, It was great to see it fly, but where it is now, I doubt I will ever see it again sorry to say, I must admit I just didn't get it at all why they put it there

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Stamford Lincs
    Posts
    9,652
    If it had landed at Bruntingthorpe or Elvington - VTTS would have lost the ability to run an operation around her . Therefore no academy or jobs from that.

    The only viable place for her is Elvington -however that would involve a ferry flight and the costs of making her airworthy again.

    Whether VTTS can realise that Robin Hood won't work and make a decision that will give her a future remains to be seen!

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

- Part of the    Network -

KEY AERO AVIATION NEWS

MAGAZINES

AVIATION FORUM

SHOP

 

WEBSITES