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Thread: Spitfire Query.

  1. #1
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    Spitfire Query.



    Can anyone identify this Spitfire for me please?
    pb::

  2. #2
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    Now that is a very interesting Christmas puzzle. I wonder if we can solve it.

    Looks to be a Mk XVI.

    Tired camouflage but with the fuselage painted silver between the tail and the fuel bay. That is very unusual.

    The underside of the wing is carrying the RAF serial. Looks to be TE or possibly TD. Higher resolution might reveal more.

    So post WWII in the UK. Damage cat 5.

    Why has the front screen been removed.

    When I can access my library and the guests are awake I'll home in on the unit codes then trawl through the post WWII accidents.

    Bah humbug.

    Merry Christmas,

    Mark
    "...the story had been forensically examined and was deeply impressive. I knew that the whole story was a load of myth and baloney…"

  3. #3
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    Odd damage to the fuselage aft of Frame 5. The tail looks as if it comes from a different aeroplane, as the pattern change is abrupt at Frame 19.

    Might be a bitsa.


    Bruce

  4. #4
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    Well, I give up after a few seconds trying! Just out of curiosity, why a XVI versus a IX, Mark? Logic, or some visual clue?

    Merry Christmas!
    bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce View Post
    Odd damage to the fuselage aft of Frame 5. The tail looks as if it comes from a different aeroplane, as the pattern change is abrupt at Frame 19.

    Might be a bitsa.


    Bruce
    Is that break at Frame 19 precise?

    'F' for Flying Training Command, 'CR' or 'GR' the unit and 'B' the individual letter.

    None of these combinations are recorded in 'Combat Codes' by Flintham and Thomas.

    One would have expected to see the post WWII roundel, but no.

    I wonder if this was just a practice piece for trainee re-finishers.

    Mark

    "...the story had been forensically examined and was deeply impressive. I knew that the whole story was a load of myth and baloney…"

  6. #6
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    Thanks for the information Mark12.

    Closer inspection of the wing does not reveal if it is TE or TD.

    Not to say that they are related but identifiable photo's (Non Spitfire) in the pack, indicate that it may have been at 22 A/S, Vereeniging, South Africa. (1944-45).
    pb::

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    Is the reflection in the window a Harvard?

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    I would say that the reflection is of the same Spitfire. The Harvards in SA had numbers.
    pb::

  9. #9
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    There are two visible reflection in the window - one is the Spitfire

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    I can only see one? The Spit and the wing alongside it. Then again my eyesight is rubbish :-)
    pb::

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mpacha View Post
    Thanks for the information Mark12.

    Closer inspection of the wing does not reveal if it is TE or TD.

    Not to say that they are related but identifiable photo's (Non Spitfire) in the pack, indicate that it may have been at 22 A/S, Vereeniging, South Africa. (1944-45).
    I Believe 22SFTS Vereeniging Air School was at Thornhill, Southern Rhodesia, operating Harvards and with a support Hurricane. Disbanded in September 1945.

    Although at this stage no unit can be attributed to FCRB, the codes are applied in the typical Flying Training Command style.

    Mark



    Last edited by Mark12; 25th December 2016 at 20:04.
    "...the story had been forensically examined and was deeply impressive. I knew that the whole story was a load of myth and baloney…"

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mpacha View Post

    Closer inspection of the wing does not reveal if it is TE or TD.
    Looks like TB to me.
    Daren Cogdon

    Spitfire fanatic

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    The spinner looks to be undamaged.... Hmmmmmm.........

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark12 View Post
    I Believe 22SFTS Vereeniging Air School was at Thornhill, Southern Rhodesia, operating Harvards and with a support Hurricane. Disbanded in September 1945.

    Although at this stage no unit can be attributed to FCRB, the codes are applied in the typical Flying Training Command Style.

    Mark
    Vereeniging is the name of a place in South Africa. The major types used by 22 Air School were the Hind, Miles Master II and the Harvard. The station was handed over to 15 AD early 1946.
    pb::

  15. #15
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    Let me re-phrase that.

    22 Service Flying Training School was at Thornhill and part of the Rhodesian Air Training Group.

    Some reference refer to this as the Air School.

    My mistake.

    Mark
    "...the story had been forensically examined and was deeply impressive. I knew that the whole story was a load of myth and baloney…"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark12 View Post
    Let me re-phrase that.

    22 Service Flying Training School was at Thornhill and part of the Rhodesian Air Training Group.

    Some reference refer to this as the Air School.

    My mistake.

    Mark
    22 Air School was at Vereeniging, South Africa and was part of the Joint Air Training Scheme.
    pb::

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by DazDaMan View Post
    Looks like TB to me.
    Yes I agree. The third digit is difficult but with what looks like a horizontal bar above the base line may well be a '4'.

    If it is a '4', TB4** brings the possibilities down to just four Spitfires, three in RSU's in Germany and one returned to 6MU in UK in 1946.

    So, a question for the Airfield structure guys. What can you tell us about this Hangar/Shelter type? Where used etc?

    Mark

    "...the story had been forensically examined and was deeply impressive. I knew that the whole story was a load of myth and baloney…"

  18. #18
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    Brize Norton. Wiki says:-

    No. 6 MU RAF Brize Norton between 10 October 1938 and 31 December 1951.
    Sub site at RAF Barnsley Park between 1 July 1941 and 19 Aug 1942.
    Sub site at RAF Barton Abbey between February 1943 and February 1945.
    Sub site at Woburn Park between 1 July 1941 and 25 February 1943.
    Sub site at Woburn Park between Jan or Nov 1944 and May 1945.
    Sub site at RAF Watchfield between December 1940 and October 1941.
    Sub site at RAF Chipping Warden between 6 January 1946 and 11 December 1949.
    Sub site at RAF Market Harborough between 28 April 1947 and 5 October 1949.

    Airspeed Horsas, Airspeed Oxfords, de Havilland Dragon Dominies.[1]
    Bristol Blenheims, Handley Page Hampdens, Supermarine Spitfires and Fairey Battles.[2]
    Last edited by Mark12; 29th December 2016 at 16:08.
    "...the story had been forensically examined and was deeply impressive. I knew that the whole story was a load of myth and baloney…"

  19. #19
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    Hi
    might it be a forces joke
    CRB = career review board ?
    the spitfire to me does seem to be a mix of spare bits
    cheer
    jerry

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    It's a blister hangar [ looks like a Miskins steel frame type ] but that type of hangar was used at so many airfields - fighter and maintenance in particular - that I don't think it's any help in identifying the aircraft.

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    Quote Originally Posted by papajuliet View Post
    ...hangar was used at so many airfields - fighter and maintenance in particular - that I don't think it's any help in identifying the aircraft.
    It does help if it eliminates Germany circa 1946 and even more if it eliminates South Africa.

    I have run these codes past respected historians Andy Thomas and Vic Flintham, authors of the best work written on RAF Codes...'Combat Codes' and drawn an absolute blank, but yes, they say some may have slipped through the net.

    Until we get higher resolution to play with, which should be forthcoming, I am still with an Engineering Officer at an RSU or MU, receiving the new 1945/6 painting instructions, all silver aluminium, together with new four digit codes instructions and him wondering how he is to accommodate four digit codes when it is hard enough getting three digits on a Spitfire. Simple solution - partially paint the side of that tired camouflaged belly landed and scrap Mk XVI in silver and see if the codes fit, does the roundel have to be moved or made smaller and does the serial have to be moved. The officer will be painting a substantial number aircraft in the coming months. Note that part of the silver paint adjacent to the 'B' appears to drop well below the fillet line locally suggesting it was painted in this dismantled state

    Mark

    Last edited by Mark12; 28th December 2016 at 10:54.
    "...the story had been forensically examined and was deeply impressive. I knew that the whole story was a load of myth and baloney…"

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    Why are we not eliminating 22 FTS at No. 22, Calveley, Ouston and Syerston ?

    based on list here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...squadron_codes
    Weather - Fair with cloudy patches, clear by early evening.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulmcmillan View Post
    Why are we not eliminating 22 FTS at No. 22, Calveley, Ouston and Syerston ?
    Not sure I fully understand the question.

    The '22' referred in post 6 was 22 Air School at Vereeniging, South Africa. My understanding being that other images in this batch, same size same Velox marks on the rear, had shots of Harvards at this School. The inference is that an RAF pilot or ground crew trained there and returned to the UK as Spitfires in Southern Africa at this time are not on record.

    Mark
    "...the story had been forensically examined and was deeply impressive. I knew that the whole story was a load of myth and baloney…"

  24. #24
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    Of the two men in the photo., the one on the left has pilot's wings and the other seems to have a flying brevet of some type - my guess is also pilot's wings. Isn't the likely scenario that one man was flying the aircraft when it crashed, he's then visited the wreck, with his mate, to have a souvenir photo. taken ?
    Do either of the men appear in the other photos. associated with this one ?

  25. #25
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    I mention 22 FTS in Uk as the wiki list of codes has FCM at 22 FTS and FCT at empire central flying school

  26. #26
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    Higher resolution to hand now but no improvement on that third digit of the under-wing serial.

    Sod's Law that the window on the far left of the image in post 1 was broken and partially missing. For if not broken it would have revealed more of the under-wing serial.

    Here is a crop that has been mirror flipped.



    Looking at just the broken pane, I see part reflection but also the possibility of a fuselage, wind screen, canopy or even a roundel. Three quarter front or three quarter rear?

    Grasping at straws. Any takers?



    Mark
    Last edited by Mark12; 28th December 2016 at 19:07.
    "...the story had been forensically examined and was deeply impressive. I knew that the whole story was a load of myth and baloney…"

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    Would Critall metal windows have been used overseas or only in the UK?

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    Can I suggest another approach?

    We know it a TB Serial machine which is only 899 possibilities without black outt blocks and any non Spitfire aircraft in this range

    Can we work out what mark it is and eliminate any that say went to USSR as did a number of mk IX) or anywhere else outside the uk and also "lasted post 1945" and were in some sort of fighter command training capacity and were written off in this timeframe ? How many "candidates" would that leave?

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    Quote Originally Posted by paulmcmillan View Post
    Can I suggest another approach?

    We know it a TB Serial machine which is only 899 possibilities without black outt blocks and any non Spitfire aircraft in this range

    Can we work out what mark it is and eliminate any that say went to USSR as did a number of mk IX) or anywhere else outside the uk and also "lasted post 1945" and were in some sort of fighter command training capacity and were written off in this timeframe ? How many "candidates" would that leave?
    Then using Andrew Pentland's production list...

    665 actually (eliminate blackout blocks and non-spittys)

    Removed All USSR and all Mk IX Left with 293 TB serialled Spit XVIs

    Removed all "Shot Down", "Killed", transferred to RHAF.. I am left with 258

    Removed all SOC 1945 - still ended up with 163..

    :0)

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulmcmillan View Post
    Can I suggest another approach?

    We know it a TB Serial machine which is only 899 possibilities without black out blocks and any non Spitfire aircraft in this range

    Can we work out what mark it is and eliminate any that say went to USSR as did a number of mk IX) or anywhere else outside the uk and also "lasted post 1945" and were in some sort of fighter command training capacity and were written off in this timeframe ? How many "candidates" would that leave?
    Paul,

    I did this with just TB4** and it whittles down to just four Mk XVI's, three at 411RSU in Germany and one at 6MU at Brize Norton.

    However you have to look wider and include all the 'TB' MK IX's and XVI's that belly landed in the 1945/6 period. That is a large number, if, as I believe at this time, these Flying Training Command and possibly spurious markings may have been applied after the accident.

    That is why trying to link the clues of the hanger and local geography and that further aircraft type through the broken window may narrow the search.

    Mark
    "...the story had been forensically examined and was deeply impressive. I knew that the whole story was a load of myth and baloney…"

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