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Thread: Chinese air power thread 18

  1. #1
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    Chinese air power thread 18

    ok last thread got closed because people got too obsessed with length which I warned.

    I'd like to continue the conversation back to my questions about the j-31
    on first glance it looks like a reasonable airplane, but a few people here seem very unimpressed with it.

    this article
    http://us.blastingnews.com/world/201...001146327.html
    claims it'll be a better air superiority fighter than the j-20 which is more focused on long range strike

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    No doubt it could become a highly capable mid-size VLO fighter, but by all accounts the Chinese armed forces aren't interested. And that's that.

    As for why China isn't interested in J-31, my hypothesis is that they don't believe that they will require a manned combat aircraft smaller than J-20 going forward. Or rather, what requirement remains can be filled by J-10s. Of course there are other possible interpretations.
    Last edited by Rii; 8th October 2016 at 11:06.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evastun View Post
    ok last thread got closed because people got too obsessed with length which I warned.

    I'd like to continue the conversation back to my questions about the j-31
    on first glance it looks like a reasonable airplane, but a few people here seem very unimpressed with it.

    this article
    http://us.blastingnews.com/world/201...001146327.html
    claims it'll be a better air superiority fighter than the j-20 which is more focused on long range strike
    i don't know how they came to the conclusion the j-20 is a long range strike aircraft. it seems to be an interceptor.
    the j-31 has poor engine performance to be an air superiority fighter. its a heavier mig-29 with the same engines.

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    The article is nonsense. You're better off forgetting everything it says and start from scratch.

    J-20 is a heavy air superiority fighter, J-31 a mid weight air superiority fighter. The best analogy is Su-27 and MiG-29. Yes the J-20 does have much more range and payload and therefore has more growth potential as a strike aircraft.

    For a geographically large country with distant threats it makes more sense to invest in the heavy fighter. Exactly the reason the Russians have negelected the Fulcrum for so long in favor of the Flanker. This had nothing to do with the Flanker being inferior at air combat maneuvering, quite the opposite.

    The J-31 is unimpressive for one reason: its an early tech demonstrator. AFAIK Shenyang never built a real prototype. The YF-22 isn't all that impressive compared to LRIP J-20s. It certainly has great potential. It is essentially what Lockheed Martin would have designed for the F-35 project if there was no VTOL requirement forcing major compromise on the design. But for it to reach its potential there is a very long road ahead and right now there's no apparent domestic interest to keep it going.
    Last edited by Multirole; 8th October 2016 at 11:19.

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    As far as future air wars go it's not clear why anyone would need two types of stealth fighters. Just having one type VLO fighter with sensor superiority would give an air force a force multiplier by using legacy fighters as deep magazine operating from behind. The money for J-31s would be far more than that required to upgrade and link China's entire fleet of J-10s and J-11s as arsenal fighters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Multirole View Post
    As far as future air wars go it's not clear why anyone would need two types of stealth fighters. Just having one type VLO fighter with sensor superiority would give an air force a force multiplier by using legacy fighters as deep magazine operating from behind. The money for J-31s would be far more than that required to upgrade and link China's entire fleet of J-10s and J-11s as arsenal fighters.
    you have a good point. the days of hi-lo may no longer be about size and range.

    j-20 and j-10s seem good. but how will shenyang survive beyond flanker clones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Multirole View Post
    The article is nonsense. You're better off forgetting everything it says and start from scratch.

    J-20 is a heavy air superiority fighter, J-31 a mid weight air superiority fighter. The best analogy is Su-27 and MiG-29. Yes the J-20 does have much more range and payload and therefore has more growth potential as a strike aircraft.

    For a geographically large country with distant threats it makes more sense to invest in the heavy fighter. Exactly the reason the Russians have negelected the Fulcrum for so long in favor of the Flanker. This had nothing to do with the Flanker being inferior at air combat maneuvering, quite the opposite.

    The J-31 is unimpressive for one reason: its an early tech demonstrator. AFAIK Shenyang never built a real prototype. The YF-22 isn't all that impressive compared to LRIP J-20s. It certainly has great potential. It is essentially what Lockheed Martin would have designed for the F-35 project if there was no VTOL requirement forcing major compromise on the design. But for it to reach its potential there is a very long road ahead and right now there's no apparent domestic interest to keep it going.
    that is sad that j-31 got so far, only to die a death with no funding

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evastun View Post
    that is sad that j-31 got so far, only to die a death with no funding
    We will know more next month at the Zhuhai Airshow. Might not be dead yet but it's been read last rites.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rii View Post
    No doubt it could become a highly capable mid-size VLO fighter, but by all accounts the Chinese armed forces aren't interested. And that's that.

    As for why China isn't interested in J-31, my hypothesis is that they don't believe that they will require a manned combat aircraft smaller than J-20 going forward. Or rather, what requirement remains can be filled by J-10s. Of course there are other possible interpretations.
    The J 31. Who wants it ? Anyone ? Even the China fans fully admit the 31's short comings. The concept is a good one. 2 engine F 35 sized fighter. But its reputation is in the gutter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KGB View Post
    The J 31. Who wants it ? Anyone ? Even the China fans fully admit the 31's short comings. The concept is a good one. 2 engine F 35 sized fighter. But its reputation is in the gutter.
    What reputation, combat record? Has it been caught sleeping around? ��

    Lots of countries want it. Want and affordability aren't the same thing. I want a Ferrari and a Porsche. China's fortunate enough to buy one, but maybe not both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KGB View Post
    The J 31. Who wants it ? Anyone ? Even the China fans fully admit the 31's short comings. The concept is a good one. 2 engine F 35 sized fighter. But its reputation is in the gutter.
    Rumor wise PLAAF and PLAN DOES NOT want J-31. It is now said to be purely an export product designated FC-31. Even the JF-17/FC-1 is made by Chengdu (CAC) and not Shenyang (SAC). Confidence in SAC among PLAAF/PLAN is rumored to be pretty low, but SAC is said to have a lot of high-powered people including former military top brass supporting them. The fact that they got themselves in to the J-20 program as a subcontractor after handsomely losing out the J-XX competition is scary. Don't forget even with the Russians, the relationship with CAC and SAC are complete opposites. CAC has had long-term and apparently good relations with Russian industry including access to AL-31FN series 3 engines (~138kN). Compare that to SAC who has an embargo imposed by the Russians for engines. Some J-20 design & tech might have been absorbed by SAC when producing J-31. You can see multiple similarities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Multirole View Post
    What reputation, combat record? Has it been caught sleeping around? ��

    Lots of countries want it. Want and affordability aren't the same thing. I want a Ferrari and a Porsche. China's fortunate enough to buy one, but maybe not both.
    what countries want it besides Pakistan?

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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantumFX View Post
    Rumor wise PLAAF and PLAN DOES NOT want J-31. It is now said to be purely an export product designated FC-31. Even the JF-17/FC-1 is made by Chengdu (CAC) and not Shenyang (SAC). Confidence in SAC among PLAAF/PLAN is rumored to be pretty low, but SAC is said to have a lot of high-powered people including former military top brass supporting them. The fact that they got themselves in to the J-20 program as a subcontractor after handsomely losing out the J-XX competition is scary. Don't forget even with the Russians, the relationship with CAC and SAC are complete opposites. CAC has had long-term and apparently good relations with Russian industry including access to AL-31FN series 3 engines (~138kN). Compare that to SAC who has an embargo imposed by the Russians for engines. Some J-20 design & tech might have been absorbed by SAC when producing J-31. You can see multiple similarities.
    can't blame the Russians. SAC pirated their design.

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    You are into rumors too much.
    Just wait for awhile.

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    China

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    Quote Originally Posted by vario2012 View Post
    You are into rumors too much.
    Just wait for awhile.
    so you don't think Pakistan is interested in the J-31? ok

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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantumFX View Post
    The fact that they got themselves in to the J-20 program as a subcontractor after handsomely losing out the J-XX competition is scary.
    Why? SAC and CAC are strategic assets. You don't let one of them fall behind the other to the point of being non-competitive in future endeavours. China has the resources and internal market to support both, and therefore should do so.

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    Hongdu is falling behind Chengdu and Shenyang. They are strategic assets, but China is anything but a strict union. Regional centers are all playing against one another jockeying for influence no different than MiG, Sukhoi, Yakovlev, Tupovlev, etc
    Go Huskers!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MadRat View Post
    Hongdu is falling behind Chengdu and Shenyang. They are strategic assets, but China is anything but a strict union. Regional centers are all playing against one another jockeying for influence no different than MiG, Sukhoi, Yakovlev, Tupovlev, etc
    Hongdu (HAIG) is doing quite well. They have a very successful product in K-8/JL-8. L-15 has one international order and more likely to follow plus the major thing is the JL-10 entering service in 2015. Hongdu-Yakovlev CJ-7 also made its first flight this year.

    When it comes to major strategic projects that has full support/priority of the PLAAF, we have,

    CAC: J-20
    XAC: Y-20, H-20

  20. #20
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    J-20 vs J-31 difference in the flight characteristics of the aircraft is negligible, 5 - 9%

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    Quote Originally Posted by paralay View Post
    J-20 vs J-31 difference in the flight characteristics of the aircraft is negligible, 5 - 9%
    flight characteristics of what? how did you find 5-9%?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evastun View Post
    flight characteristics of what? how did you find 5-9%?
    its just paralay being parlayay

    he thinks the inside of the pakfa looks like this

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    J-10B with WS-10B: Its unclear whether this is either #154 or #155. If it is not, then could mean WS-10B for J-10 is maturing.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Quote Originally Posted by Y-20 Bacon View Post
    its just paralay being parlayay

    he thinks the inside of the pakfa looks like this
    what are you implying here ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Y-20 Bacon View Post
    its just paralay being parlayay
    This is one of the options, it was made in 2010. Catch up, we in 2016

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evastun View Post
    flight characteristics of what? how did you find 5-9%?
    http://www.paralay.com/paralay_tab.xls

    Line 194 - 261

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    Quote Originally Posted by paralay View Post
    you'd be great friends with this guy

    http://forum.keypublishing.com/membe...21126-topspeed

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    Quote Originally Posted by KGB View Post
    what are you implying here ?
    don't shoot the messenger. I am not the one who created that. You should direct your anger or non-anger to the person who made it.

    but it seems that he has since updated this W duct to an M duct.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Y-20 Bacon View Post
    you'd be great friends with this guy...
    If you can objectively compare these two aircraft, we will be friends

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    It kind of got lost in the last thread but I was wondering if anybody here knew anything about alleged PESA radar mounted in the Zambian L-15Z? What sort of range and compatibility does it have? Do we even have a name?

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