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Thread: Dunkirk film - Merged For General Updates And Chat

  1. #31
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    Originally Posted by snafu View Post

    It wouldn't matter, the monitor was not a WWII type of ship...
    Bizarre statement: also see Terror and Erebus!!! How soon we forget...

  2. #32
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    I see people are already getting their knickers in a twist and dismissing the film already.
    I think people have taken that picture of an Fw 190 too literally. We certainly won't be seeing one of those in the finished production. And again people getting upset because they think the Yak will be playing a Spitfire.
    Considering the production is using 2 Mk. I's and a Buchon, I think they at least a little bit of credit. Or at least for people to wait to see the finished movie before drawing their knives.

  3. #33
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    A pedant writes;

    Technically we have established that a Yak IS playing a Spitfire. Mark Jeffries calls it a 'Yakfire'.

    The conversation was about how - close up or wide shot, from the inside or the outside.

    I know a lady who played Kate Winslet's feet.

    What breed of Yak was that? Whatever it was, money talks with the CAA!.
    Last edited by Beermat; 9th June 2016 at 11:07.

  4. #34
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    Can we start talking about the name of the dog yet? - oh sorry wrong film.

    Surely this is wild speculation. Modern CG (there I said it) can remove the need for crashing an aeroplane or for those who don't like CG then you can 3d print one a la James Bonds DB5 which was destroyed at the end of Skyfall (and you could see where the two halves were joined together) and throw it out the back of a Hercules or something.

    Why is it every time a film made about aeroplanes gets mentioned on this forum it descends into rivet counting and measuring of roundels?

    I'm afraid the general public who will pay millions (collectively) to go and watch this film will not be interested if the aeroplane or ship they are seeing isn't entirely authentic. They might however deride the pointless waste of crashing an aeroplane in this day and age to make it even more authentic.

    From what I've seen some considerable effort is being made to make this authentic so is it possible to leave the film critic reviews until anyone has actually seen it?
    Last edited by tomward; 9th June 2016 at 09:36.

  5. #35
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    Some video from the set here - including Spitfire in close formation with helicopter camera ship: http://www.denofgeek.com/uk/movies/d...lan-s-new-film
    Last edited by Beermat; 9th June 2016 at 10:07.
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  6. #36
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    The "WW2 Battleship" is, in fact the post-war French destroyer Maillé-Brézé which has been towed from Nantes, where it has been a museum ship since 1988.

    It stopped enroute at Saint Nazaire to have its dazzle camouflage replaced by an overall grey and some equipment removed to enhance its vague similarity to a 1930s destroyer.

    I suspect the crashing plane bollox is about as accurate.

    A feature on the filming coming up in the next issue of Britain At War

    Moggy

    Last edited by Moggy C; 9th June 2016 at 10:18.
    "What you must remember" Flip said "is that nine-tenths of Cattermole's charm lies beneath the surface." Many agreed.

  7. #37
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    Just to broaden the discussion a little...

    ...has any film actually 'shot down' (not crash-landed) a full-scale (or large-scale) 'model' (or real) aeroplane?

    I think about this a lot when watching 'The Battle of Britain' and noticing the difference between the (now) lamentable 'special-effects', where the exposed film of flying aircraft was doctored, and the pretty good use of large-scale flying models.

    Yes, I know some of the model work isn't that good, the colliding Stukas and the Bf109 that just 'pops' into an engine, two wings and a fuselage, but some of the rest isn't too bad, for example the last He111 that crash-lands into the sea.

    Anyway, I was wondering what it would take to manufacture, say, a convincing Stuka, and actually shoot it down with live 303 ammunition and 'shoot' really good high-definition gun-camera footage of it at the same time?

    Now I know this isn't going to happen over Duxford on a Sunday afternoon but technically it is possible and it would be nice to see something original in a re-make rather than just the same story being trotted-out with current actors...

    ...I mean if you just want to make money then the obvious choice for the crew of Guy Gibson's Lancaster...

    ...are 'One Direction'! (Whoever the hell they are?)
    WA$.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moggy C View Post
    The "WW2 Battleship" is, in fact the post-war French destroyer Maillé-Brézé which has been towed from Nantes, where it has been a museum ship since 1988.

    It stopped enroute at Saint Nazaire to have its dazzle camouflage replaced by an overall grey and some equipment removed to enhance its vague similarity to a 1930s destroyer.
    I suppose if you wanted a real ship that is about as good as it is possible to get, apart from the gun turrets, radars and towed-sonar (?), she is pretty much a WW2 technology hull. And I'm encouraged by the fact that she is being repainted and towed onto location; that shows a fair commitment in terms of cost alone.

    You're absolutely right about the usual media warship / battleship confusion!
    WA$.

  9. #39
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    Nolan is very anti-CGI, hence the small fleet he has assembled in Dunkerque Harbour, and his use of real aircraft.

    Myself I'd think taking his commitment as far as crashing a real WW2 aircraft goes? I can't see it.

    Moggy

    The fleet includes a rather weird looking corvette, which on closer examination turns out to be a wooden fake. Possibly headed for destruction.
    "What you must remember" Flip said "is that nine-tenths of Cattermole's charm lies beneath the surface." Many agreed.

  10. #40
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    Nor I. But I was wondering if the media reports had confused large-scale models for real WW2 aircraft?

    It would be nice if some of the real 'small ships' got to return to Dunkirk for the film.
    WA$.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creaking Door View Post
    Just to broaden the discussion a little...

    ...has any film actually 'shot down' (not crash-landed) a full-scale (or large-scale) 'model' (or real) aeroplane?
    Plenty of real aircraft were intentionally crashed during the early Hollywood days, although they were often modified so that the pilot did at least have some kind of protection.

    As for "shooting down" - I suppose it's feasible, but the problem is the expense and time. How much for, say, a thousand rounds of .303? And a convincing scale replica? And the amount of takes to get it right?
    Daren Cogdon

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  12. #42
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    I was just thinking about 'Aces High'. Do you remember the rather moving scene where the SE5a glides down to crash into the trees (not the typical fireball behind the trees shot) with the pilot dead at the controls; I'll have to watch it again but that seemed a pretty convincing model to me and that wasn't a huge budget film?
    WA$.

  13. #43
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    That's actually one of my favourite sequences in the film.

    Yes, it wasn't a huge budget, but the model work in it was pretty decent, and there was a number of large-scale RC models used.

    Speaking of models, the effects work on the likes of The Flying Tigers and The Bridges of Toko-ri was fantastic!
    Daren Cogdon

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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creaking Door View Post
    Well.....I know what you meant, but check-out HMS Roberts and HMS Abercrombie.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberts-class_monitor#

    Anyway, neither would be appropriate for 'Dunkirk'.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sabrejet View Post
    Bizarre statement: also see Terror and Erebus!!! How soon we forget...
    Sorry - what I meant was that monitor(M33) wasn't a WWII ship.

  15. #45
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    I would think that the public is less knowledgeable about WWII ships than aircraft...that fewer people would be able to spot an incorrect ship than aeroplane.
    There are two sides to every story. The truth is usually somewhere between the two.

  16. #46
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    I think the British Public are less knowledgeable about WW2 full stop. I was born in 1945 so it was close to my memory growing up.So what are today's children taught about it. From what I have seen and heard,very little.
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  17. #47
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    Funnily enough I was talking about the Dunkirk film with a twenty year old colleague yesterday. Educated and clever chap, he nevertheless told me with confidence that we wouldn't have got away with Dunkirk if it wasn't for the US air force.

  18. #48
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    I hope you punched him....?
    Daren Cogdon

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  19. #49
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    Perhaps they're going to crash the Maillé-Brézé into the beach?...
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  20. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul178 View Post
    I think the British Public are less knowledgeable about WW2 full stop. I was born in 1945 so it was close to my memory growing up.So what are today's children taught about it. From what I have seen and heard,very little.
    To be fair, and I don't think you are being completely fair or generous to young people today, they actually are taught a good amount. Ive visited lots of schools where they've been quite informed and been on group visits to museums where they've engaged in studying the first and second world wars but even if their knowledge isn't incredibly indepth then there is a lot of history to cover. When does something stop being a priority? How far back does something need to go to stop it being the prime focus?

    The Holocaust? Napoleonic Wars? Cold War? Boer War? Ancient Greece? Roman Empire? Great War? WW2? You could go on and on. I bet it's a thankless task setting the national curriculum. So much to study.

    I actually think children in this country arn't all as uniformed about WW2 as you think.

  21. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by DazDaMan View Post
    I hope you punched him....?
    Or maybe just put the same effort into putting him straight and explaining where he'd gone wrong?

  22. #52
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    I had someone tell me they are going to fly in a two seat spitfire that took part in the Battle of Britain, Im guessing the film of 1969 not the battle of 1940
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  23. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wings43 View Post
    Or maybe just put the same effort into putting him straight and explaining where he'd gone wrong?
    Now where is the fun in that? Physical assault all the way.

  24. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wings43 View Post
    I actually think children in this country aren't all as uniformed about WW2 as you think.
    Thank you 'World of Tanks'!

    By the way did you notice your little typo / slip / pun in the quote above?
    WA$.

  25. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beermat View Post
    ...he nevertheless told me with confidence that we wouldn't have got away with Dunkirk if it wasn't for the US air force.
    I hope you told him that the US Air Force didn't shoot down a single aircraft during the whole of WW2...

    ...and then you punched him!
    WA$.

  26. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moggy C View Post
    The fleet includes a rather weird looking corvette, which on closer examination turns out to be a wooden fake. Possibly headed for destruction.
    For me this is the image that sums-up the desperation of the Dunkirk operation...

    ...for years I couldn't understand the men jumping off right into that bow-wave of the speeding destroyer!

    And then I figured out that the ship is actually stationary and the bow wave is painted-on (to fool submarines into misjudging the correct speed of the target in a torpedo attack) and that part of the 'bow-wave' is the splashes made by men already hitting the water.
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  27. #57
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    It's not that there's no awareness, its more that there has been a lot of US-centric distortion through movies and gaming.

    Without pre-judgement I doubt the Dunkirk movie will show the US government sitting back and watching how the 'Europe thing' pans out before making any decisions. I imagine we'll not see US Ambassador to the UK Senator Joe Kennedy proposing meetings with Hitler to seek out an 'understanding', with the words 'Democracy is Finished'.
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  28. #58
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    A correction: Joe Kennedy was an ambassador, but he wasn't a Senator.

    I wouldn't hold my breath for anyone in "Hollywood"...The film industry...to say anything bad about a Kennedy...even Joe.

    But don't overlook the fact that by the time of Dunkirk, the US was already a de facto ally...with arms shipments so no one paid much attention to Kennedy.
    Those statements led to FDR losing confidence in him and ultimately, to his resignation...so the US isn't as bad in this case as you seem to imply.

    Remember, Lend Lease (I.e. free airplanes) and training of RAF pilots in the U.S. were only months away.
    Last edited by J Boyle; 10th June 2016 at 15:54.
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  29. #59
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    Was that before or after the US cleaned us out of our gold reserves ? As for de facto ally, that didn't start until we'd sunk a goodly portion of the French fleet at Mers el Kebir then, the U.S got the message !

  30. #60
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    Yes, it was a slip to call him 'Senator'. I stand corrected.

    Everything was paid for until way after the Battle of Britain. The Lend-Lease act only happened when it looked like Kennedy might have been wrong and the US Government had decided to end a show of non-intervention in European affairs that they had been putting on to the American people.

    They did not weigh in to defend any part of Europe or democracy therein until then (Although the President clearly wanted to for all the right reasons) - and that was a matter of policy. And the materiel was not free - the UK gave up a lot of territory to the US military in strategic locations around the world.

    I am not standing in moral judgement - the US Government was first and foremost looking after the interests of its citizens throughout, which is surely the right thing for any government to do. It's the 'US saves the world' narrative that I often encounter that needs qualifying. I hope the Dunkirk film makers don't try to squeeze it in there too.
    Last edited by Beermat; 10th June 2016 at 20:47.

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