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Thread: Sískin

  1. #1
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    Sískin

    I thought that a thread with this title would make finding other Sískin threads easier. The cornerstone thread, for me, was 'Identifying this wreck' from 2008. Anyone know how to link one thread to another so that the original 'wings in a barn' thread can be easily found through this thread?

    Working sporadically on drawings for the Siskin starting by compiling fuselage information from a handfull of original AW drawings. After the flurry of posts from last fall and some PM coms, I think people's interests have been diverted to other fascinating pursuits. If any of you can assist with additional drawings, engineering reports etc, it will be appreciated. Probably the greatest lack is undercarriage information. I have drawings for the compression leg and undimensioned GA, but specifics as to geometry, articulated joints etc would be a great help.

    Regards
    John

    Johnw at vintageaviationteam dot com

  2. #2
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    John, unfortunately I am unable to help in any way but please keep us updated on progress with this project. Are you intending to build a flyer or a static? Do you have a Jaguar engine? Anyway, the very best of luck with it.
    Work! You don't know what work is. When I was a boy...

  3. #3
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    Hello sideslip, the intent is to create drawings that will facilitate the building of either static or flying aircraft. As I am currently working on one project, have plans for a second, a Sískin would depend on what can be uncovered to make the aircraft a reality. I know of one engine in a Canadian museum and persistent rumours of another appear promising but no one seems to have actually seen it. I have enough experience building to realize "solve the most difficult problem first" which, invariably with historic aircraft reproductions, is the engine.

    Considering that no Sískin or substantial Sískin remnants are on display, a good static build would be a great step forward.

    Regards,
    John

  4. #4
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    Siskin Drawing List

    Attached is a PDF of the Siskin III & IIIa drawings acquired so far which is, I trust, of interest to some of you. Also on hand are another 40+ drawings covering marks from the Deasey Siskin to the Mk 5 and FF16. These additional drawings have detail not on the III-IIIa drawings which may, after some future research to validate their applicability, be of use. If anyone has any other drawings that would help to fill in the rather large holes in this list, don't hesitate to contact me.

    Regards
    John
    Attached Images Attached Images

  5. #5
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    John,
    You could always ask the RAF Museum if you could "borrow" their substantial Siskin wingsections. I believe an almost complete top wing.
    Cees

  6. #6
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    Hi John,

    What a good idea of yours.

    Out of interest, has anyone recovered those Siskin remains and brought them indoors for preservation?
    David Collins
    The de Havilland Hornet Project

  7. #7
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    https://www.flickr.com/photos/ajw1970/23146488583

    Midland Air Museum at Coverntry has half an upper wing on loan from the RAFM.
    Cees

  8. #8
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    There were rumours of a fuselage in one of the Canadian museums, bot no one has confirmed this.

    Saw some of the RAFM's wings at Stafford last Friday.

    Bob T..

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxim08 View Post
    the original 'wings in a barn' thread can be easily found through this thread?

    http://forum.keypublishing.com/showt...is-Wreck/page2
    Dave Charles
    Historian 607 (County of Durham) Squadron
    Vice Chair North East Land Sea Air Museums (NELSAM)

  10. #10
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    Bob, there are two rumours floating around eastern Canada regarding Siskins. The first re a fuselage and the second being an A-W Jaguar engine in a farmer's private collection. So far I have yet to meet anyone who has ever met anyone who has seen either, but ever optimistic.

    The last RCAF Sískin became an instructional airframe with a cadet squadron circa 1947. It is long gone and as yet no records of the final disposition have appeared. This may be connected to the first rumour of a museum fuselage.

    Regards
    John

  11. #11
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    Good list

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxim08 View Post
    Attached is a PDF of the Siskin III & IIIa drawings acquired so far which is, I trust, of interest to some of you. John
    John, a great list and a good start.
    My take on the Siskin III is 'materials' as much as 'motor'.
    The cost of re-engineering an aerostructure will exceed the savings of using available materials, so you may as well use the original materials. The original design has a massive invested cost of computations and also has a history of safe use, so is actually the most conservative path to follow.

    But of course the original materials are no longer available.

    Siskin III I understand is strip steel construction and pin jointed tube.

    I suspect the pinjointed tube is 3% nickel alloy T50 tube.
    I suspected the strip steel was DTD 99-100-54a but have seen Bristol Bulldog drawings, completed in 1928, showing BS S40 used, later overwritten with DTD 99-100-54a.

    Now I am thinking that the Siskin III being a 1926 (?) design, might be S40 in the fuselage....
    Do any of your drawings detail material specifications and gauge of the strip steel or tube materials.

    I am looking at these materials and their availability for various strip steel designs. It would be good to know what the material requirements are for a flying Siskin III.

  12. #12
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    Maxim-

    There were 2 Jaguars in a museum in Canada, they are now in NZ but are in poor condition if what I have been told is correct.

    P+P-

    IIRC I think the Siskin had a fuselage of steel tube, and wing spars/ribs of drawn strip.

    Whilst making accurate wings is a possibility due to the surviving sections, the rest would probably be fairly hit and miss as to it's accuracy.

    An interesting note- Apparently the wings of the III had different spar end fittings where they mount onto the fuselage etc, than those of the IIIA.

    One possibility is to make a repro of the early prototype Siskin, which I seem to recall, was mainly wooden construction.

    I wish you all the best in your endeavours John, we need more like you and P+P, and less of the "YOU CAN'T DO THAT-ER'S".

    Bob T.
    Last edited by sopwith.7f1; 11th May 2016 at 12:26.

  13. #13
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    This shows the structure


  14. #14
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    ON THE ARMSTRONG-SIDDELEY "SISKIN": 1. General view of the undercarriage, which is of the oleo type, with long wheel travel. 2. Attachment of lower rear spar to fuselage longeron. The fuselage joint shown is typical of the construction employed. 3. The inter-plane struts go to fittings on the neutral axis of the wing spars, so that no twisting stresses are caused by the pronounced stagger. Inset, 4, shows the very neat wirelocking device.
    both from

    http://aviadejavu.ru/Site/Arts/Art7476.htm

  15. #15
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    I've got an original Jaguar maintenance manual somewhere...must find it!

    Why was I thinking we had a Jaguar in the Rebel Air Museum...or was it a Cheetah? Memory isn't what it used to be!

    Good luck with the project. I would certainly love to see a Siskin. It's been a firm favourite ever since I built the Matchbox 1/72 Siskin as a kid.

    Best regards;
    Steve

  16. #16
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    I gave an opportunity to search through a collection of early Palmer aircraft wheels with the intent of finding a pair suitable for a Sískin. The Sískin used Palmer '77' wheels using a tire of 700 x 100. This is an asymmetric spoked wheel having the rim offset to one side of the hub centreline. The question; can anyone provide information to identify type 77 wheels? Ideally a part number that could be located on the wheel or a specification of rim width and diameter as well as hub dimensions.



    Regards
    John

  17. #17
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    Steve, if you do find the manual be prepared for me attempting to relieve you of it!

    Regards,
    John

  18. #18
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    Thank you to all that have posted. It is this type of dialogue that I was hoping for.

    Instead of cluttering the thread with a lot of short replies, I will try to recognize everyone.

    Tony, nice images. First I have seen of the uncovered airframe on display. The line drawings are similar but complementary to the AP.

    Dcollins103, if the wing actions are recovered I hope the owner will consider this project when thinking of disposal.

    Bob T, I only have fuselage and wing GAs for the Siddley Deasey Sískin with the ABC Dragonfly engine.

    P&P, the only reference to steel is for T5 tube.

    Hopefully I remembered everyone.

    Regards,
    John

  19. #19
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    I have a poor copy of an Air board drawing, A6424, which shows a 700 x 100mm "standard wheel". The drawing suggests that it was used on the RE8, RE8A, BE12, BE9A, TE1, FE9 and BE2C.
    Would this be of interest?

  20. #20
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    Aircraftclocks, it could very well be the same wheel. Your drawing is of interest. It would at least tell me whether any of the 'box of wheels' are of this type. Please let me know what would be required to acquire a copy of your drawing.

    Regards
    John

  21. #21
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    John;

    I will get looking for the manual for you. Now! Where to start looking!

    Best regards;
    Steve

  22. #22
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    Maxim08
    Just had a look at other information I have, and I have found the Palmer 77. Here is all the different size wheels made by Palmer in the 700 x 100mm size.

    Wheel No Hub length Hub Bore Track Line. m./m.
    92 185 55 135/50
    95 185 55 Central
    77 178 44.45 132/46
    93 150 40 Central
    33 150 38.09 Central
    99 178 38.89 132/46
    96 178 55 132/46

    Not sure what it all means but I am sure with the few examples you have, you will.

    I would be interested to see what you make of my "standard wheel" and what wheel number you find it to be.

  23. #23
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    I'm sure the more erudite will already know this, but taking the 77 wheel data the track line is the vertical centre of the wheel (head on) the hub is 178 mm long with it projecting 46 mm inboard of C/L and 132 mm outboard of C/L
    with the axle bore at 44.45 mm

  24. #24
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    John Aeroclub, you were faster than I on a response. Thank you. In automotive parlance, the 'track line' would be 'wheel offset'.

    Regards
    John

  25. #25
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    Of interest there are quite a number of line illustrations in Metal Aircraft Construction by M. Langley (Pitman's 1934) of A.W joints and spar fittings. It would be of interest to know where Alf Granger got his information from when he drew the drawings for his Siskin Data Plan 3 as the fuselage construction page is very highly detailed. Could I also suggest that you might find a lot of commonality with the AW Atlas airframe.

    Regards

    John
    Last edited by John Aeroclub; 18th May 2016 at 14:27.

  26. #26
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    There is a Siskin propeller in the U.K -in the early 1980's a project was mooted in the U.K and a part of that was a Siskin rudder.

    On the engine side of things -the reported number and actual number are different . Hopefully I can play some part in putting a Jaguar on the front of a Siskin in the future.

  27. #27
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    It's always fun to learn something new, in this case some insight into Palmer aero wheels.

    The 178mm hub seems to have been popular as evidenced by aircraftclocks list. Even in the posted, abridged, list the same track line was used on wheels 77, 96 and 99 with the only difference being bore size. The bore size refers to the inner diameter if the hub bushing not the hub itself. I will assume same hub for different axle diameters. Just because the hubs are the same does not mean that the wheel rim diameter is.

    The 77 wheel was used with 700x100 or 750x125 tyres.

    Regards
    John

  28. #28
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    John Aeroclub, I do have the 1934 volume and one or two others in early metal aircraft construction. An interesting text is a US Navy training manual from the late 1930s on roll forming steel strip. When I look at the detail in 'Data Plan 3', I suspect that the author had the same fuselage GAs that I have. Does anyone know if the author is still alive?

    Regards
    John

  29. #29
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    Maxim08
    I did not notice that about the type 77 being able to fit 2 different sizes of tires.

    In fact looking at the information I forwarded to you, all the 7 types of wheel I previously listed can also fit the 750 x 125mm size tires as well.

  30. #30
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    A little 'bump' to keep things going. Behind the scenes aircraftclocks has provided great information on Palmer Aero wheels which will help (hopefully) isolate a pair of type 77 wheels.

    powerandpassion, I trust that this drawing segment will be of interest. It shows a cross-section of the wing rib perimeter structure. This will give many a sense of how complex this aircraft was to build. No simple channel, but a complex rolling exercise only .4" wide and 0.387" high.



    powerandpassion you will note the call out for 'GE100' specification steel. Do you have any reference to what this is? The tubular (but not tubes, rolled shapes) rib bracing call for 'GE100' or 'S43' which infers interchangeability.

    Comments welcomed.

    Regards
    John

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