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Thread: BREXIT - Merged thread.

  1. #61
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    A jarring and relatively recent innovation is the expression of distances in kilometres (note spelling!!) rather than miles in many documentaries - usually BBC home grown affairs on almost any subject.
    Charlie

    Keep smiling - it's never as bad as you think!!

  2. #62
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    I'm voting 'Leave.'

    I don't get why so many people are split, it's pretty obvious. Vote to 'Remain', and you're/we're bound by European Union laws and legislation that have been determined by un-elected Eurocrats often without knowing until they're firmly in place and even when we are aware we don't have a say in the matter, so much for "democracy". We'll also be bound by laws and legislation on trade with the rest of the world meaning we're limited on what we can and can't do, again by unelected Eurocrats. Etc., etc., etc., and so forth. Basic jist, really. Just a tip of an already melting iceberg. Basically, vote to stay and be weak and have no faith in the UK's real potential.

    Or, 'Leave' and be independent without Eurocrats having a say on what the UK does, be bound by our own laws and legislation, have a wider influence on trade with the world including with Europe, control our own security, borders, whom we want to come in from non-EU countries (yes, under EU laws and legislation non-EU citizens are discriminated against unless of course, you're aged between 19-30, have your own iPhone, be well fed, clothed as you've fled neutral countries from a dangerous one where your wife and kids still are to reach one that offers the best benefits, obviously), have a much broader communication and influence on the World Trade Organisation among many other beneficial points.

    If being a member of the European Union was about security and being "together" then maybe, just maybe, it would be a good reason to remain. But the simple fact of the matter is, the EU is a 'politico-economic union', they're not an 'intergovernmental military alliance' and they're not, ironically, a "union" that keeps nor promotes international co-operation. That's why we have and are members of NATO and the United Nations. Who remembers when the EU were trusted in sorting out the issues in Yugoslavia and the Ukraine? Yeah... Look how well those places turned out, but that's what happens when a politico-economic union is sent in to do a job of an intergovernmental military alliance, in the Ukraine's case you just give the people a bunch of EU flags to wave in front of the worlds' media and proudly announce one wishes them to be a member of the EU, that's not going to provoke Russia next door at all, oh no-no. And I not need to add the current situation with the desperate [lack] of security on the European continent at the moment.

    When it comes to trade, no country needs to be a member of the European Union in order to trade with Europe, every other [non-EU] country trades with Europe and given what the UK and Europe have to offer to one another there's absolutely no reason why that relationship has to stop, and given that Europe sell more to the UK than the UK sell to Europe there's no reason why Europe would stop that altogether, approximately 55%-45% in Europe's favour, according to the OBR it's 60%-40% in Europe's favour as of 2015. Considering several years ago that figure was in the UK's favour and is forecast to decrease further, one must wonder why the UK is paying approximately £360 million per week and was approximately £3.1 billion higher, annually, than expected in 2015. Net contribution in the EU budget (membership fee) was some £10.4 billion in 2015. Over the next five years that annual figure is expected to rise by at least £3.1 billion, forecast (as of mid-2015) to rise by £1.3 billion by the end of 2016 alone. Clearly, going by those very basic figures alone, they don't quite add up do they, and that's before we bring the afore mentioned into equation. Is it all worth it? No! We're not on a good deal here.

    That's just the tip of the situation.

    Personally speaking, am I anti-European Union, am I a Euro-sceptic, do I dislike it? Yes, yes I am and I do. Have I attempted to give it the benefit of the doubt and at least try to work it all out and see how it might be best for the UK to remain without being biased in any way? Absolutely, and I've came to the conclusion that the UK will be better off out of it. Am I anti-European, do I dislike Europe, do I dislike it's people? No, absolutely not, and I firmly believe the UK can have a healthy and flourishing relationship with Europe, and the rest of the world, without being a member of the European Union.

    I could very easily write an essay about all this, but I think one or two "remain lots" on here would just cherry pick it anyway, in which case it's probably best to keep it simple yet, hopefully, effective. Voting Leave. I don't want unelected Eurocrats I've never heard of before deciding on "what's best" for my country.

  3. #63
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    EELightning

    Spot on ! You make all the right points.

  4. #64
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    It's simple.
    If you think things are messed up vote leave.
    If you're happy with the way things are going...vote stay. But then you should quit griping about how messed up things are.
    There are two sides to every story. The truth is usually somewhere between the two.

  5. #65
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    Greece is not the problem, the problem is that the way the EU is governed is deeply flawed. Whether Greece stays or leaves doesn't fix anything. The EU is not a union, its nothing more than a free trade zone made up by independent states. There is no unified/democratic monetary policy, basically Germany controls everything. Germany is not a world banking power like the UK and US, Germany is an industrial power. In the culture of Germany debt is considered a bad and shameful thing. Germans have never had any scruples about being a predatorial lender and purposely lending with the intention of driving the borrower to default and then looting the debtor's assets which is exactly what has happened with Greece. The fact that Greece has a corrupt government and that half the money lent was looted by Greek bureaucracy was completely overlooked and in fact played upon. This has allowed Germany and other european banks to go in and loot the Greek budget and take ownership of government owned land properties. EU bank bureaucrats had free reign to go in and plunder Greece for debt repayment. The fact that Greece defaulted on its debt had nothing to do with ability to pay but was rather the fault of lending banks mishandling the debt (I can't remember the exact cause of the mismanagement, it had to do with trading speculation, Im too lazy to look up the details). For Greece their economy can not be sustained if they leave the EU but their economy will never recover if they stay in the EU and allow their banking system to keep getting plundered. There is no solution except to make the ECB a real central bank that is democratically run and has unified monetary law that treats all states equally.

    edit: whoops!! Brexit, not Grexit. Well I have to learn to read better. Still my post covers topics that will affect Britain. The main point being that Britain has probably the largest banking industry in the world and is not going to let the bureaucratic buffoonery in Brussels ruin it.
    Last edited by arquebus; 6th March 2016 at 04:50.

  6. #66
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    I thought Boris gave a very good performance on the Andrew Marr show this morning.
    Just a shame that he wasn't allowed to answer questions without being interrupted.

    Whatever people might say about Boris, he's a clever man. In a one to one debate, I reckon he'd
    run rings around Cameron.
    Engine Failure:.... A condition which occurs when all fuel tanks mysteriously become filled with air.

  7. #67
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    Excellent article by Andrew Rawnsley about the standard of the debate in the in and out campaigns so far, which, for those who have a aversion to reading Guardian articles can be boiled down to:

    If you’re whingeing, you’re losing
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...ign-whingeing-
    Last edited by trekbuster; 6th March 2016 at 14:43.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~Alan~ View Post
    I thought Boris gave a very good performance on the Andrew Marr show this morning.
    Just a shame that he wasn't allowed to answer questions without being interrupted.
    I fear your views were not universally shared. I didn't see the show so can't comment personally but here is an alternative perspective:
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a6915191.html

  9. #69
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    I have no aversion. I wrap my fish and chips in it.

  10. #70
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    Marr's position and that of the BBC were made abundantly clear - as if we needed to know !

  11. #71
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    How interesting! Now I would characterise the In campaign's utterings as a series of entirely unsubstantiated dire warnings of the dangers of leaving. Having said that the Out campaign are doing little better.

    The problem is of course that neither side can actually KNOW what the implications will be so it is all speculation and hyperbole. And so the mind will not play a major part in the decision making process. Which is of course why the In campaign is threatening disaster inas many forms as it can muster and the Out campaign is complaining about the conduct of the debate.

    Neither side is adding much of value for the undecided third to place their tick against. To date, with a few exceptions, an unedifying experience all round.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Green View Post
    Marr's position and that of the BBC were made abundantly clear - as if we needed to know !
    Yes, entirely neutral of course. It is all a matter of perspective.

    Neither side is adding much of value for the undecided third to place their tick against. To date, with a few exceptions, an unedifying experience all round.
    I entirely agree
    Last edited by trekbuster; 6th March 2016 at 16:19.

  13. #73
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    In/Out ? For your answer think Euro.

  14. #74
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    Strange (or maybe not ?) that John Longworth has been forced to resign as director general of the British Chambers of
    Commerce. The argument being, that he is supposed to remain neutral.

    This didn't seem to apply to the military top brass, who apparently penned a letter saying we should stay in Europe.
    Although it later emerged that this letter composed in Downing street, included names of those who had not agreed to
    it's wording, and at least one declined to be associated with it.
    Engine Failure:.... A condition which occurs when all fuel tanks mysteriously become filled with air.

  15. #75
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    I agree that it is odd - and indeed I believe he stressed that it was a personal opinion. I don't think there has been any 'leaning' done on the organisation by the government though - this is a typical corporate over reaction.

  16. #76
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    Well I have just watched Cameroon on the news bleating on about how the U.K. as not part of the Shengen agreement do not have to accept the migrants that every other country are having to.......

    It of course manages to skate nicely over the fact that when they are given EU citizenship in whatever country accepts them, the Shengen agreement will not then stop them legally upping sticks and moving here.

  17. #77
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    I was logging on to the forum to assess the howls of rage that surely should have been here about the Sun dragging our monarch out of neutrality into the debate with a flimsy and unsubstantiated piece of reporting, in a similar way to the comments about the head of the BCC, but No!

    Perhaps it is because the alleged remarks are in line with their view?

    I do find it amusing that as far as the Fail and other tabloids are concerned it is OK to bash the Prince about alleged Pro views and subsequently run disparaging storylines about his workrate over the next few weeks ( just coincidence?I don't think so) but not see the double standards in the above.

  18. #78
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    Could it be that no one here reads the Sun ?

    We like our news neutral and unbiased as per the Daily Mail and the Telegraph.

  19. #79
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    OK I'll bite, even though I suspect, deep down in your soul, you don't believe your own statement:

    Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha HA Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha....takes a breath... Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha
    Last edited by Deano; 29th March 2016 at 23:34. Reason: CoC Rule 14

  20. #80
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    News flash - it was Pob!!

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...legg-2011.html

    Although, of course it's in the Daily Wail so.... Sorry Can't really believe it and will have to look elsewhere for the culprit. If of course the whole story has any semblance of truth, which is doubtful.

    Jacob Rees-Smugg apparently said the following:
    'One of the great things about the Queen is that we all believe that she is on our side regardless of which side we are on and that's actually quite the right position for a constitutional monarch,' he said. 'I like to think she's a Brexiter.'
    Well he would say that, wouldn't he. However he is right about the constitutional position, and whoever has overegged this story should be suitably chastened.

    I happen to think she is a Stayer, but To be honest I have no idea, and neither does he.
    Last edited by trekbuster; 9th March 2016 at 16:51.

  21. #81
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    The latest to have the finger pointed as leaker is Gove. To my mind whoever is responsible is beyond stupid and Brexit deserve all they get.

    Yes he would but that is the point as you say - we all believe she is is on our side. That's her strength and that special position she has upheld for 70 years will probably die with her.
    Charlie

    Keep smiling - it's never as bad as you think!!

  22. #82
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    She exists always to protect her position - at all costs.

  23. #83
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    On a different note.

    "what has the EU ever done for us?"

    Well, it seems to have ensured that flags are fireproof, or at least very fire resistant

    http://youtu.be/Vae11y-9AX0

    And before any one says so, Yes, I am aware that it is a spoof........probably.
    Last edited by trekbuster; 9th March 2016 at 20:54.

  24. #84
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    Cameron's latest pronouncement in "Project Fear"...

    If we leave Europe, gloves and socks could cost more !!.... no comment.
    Engine Failure:.... A condition which occurs when all fuel tanks mysteriously become filled with air.

  25. #85
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    When I read that it pretty much determined me to do an about turn and vote to stay In. Then I read Mario Draghi's latest desperate announcement ( is the 56th or the 57th?) to save the Eurozone and I decided on balance to sacrifice dearer hosiery in favour of an economy over which we will have a measure of control in the future as opposed to remaining hitched to the biggest economic and fiscal disaster story in the developed world.
    Last edited by charliehunt; 11th March 2016 at 12:50. Reason: Typos
    Charlie

    Keep smiling - it's never as bad as you think!!

  26. #86
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    How about this for thought.


    In an era of unprecedented information and connectivity.... do we still need a representative democracy to take care of absolutely everything about the country? [This extends to local councils as well as parliament.]

    A simple example would be a decision to go to war - this could fairly easily be done with an eVote.

    Obviously, with increasing complexity of decision comes increasing complexity of voting. Taxes and spending would take some thought.


    [Or are there still too many people who aren't online and wouldn't be able to have their say?]

  27. #87
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    [QUOTE=Amiga500;2300051]How about this for thought.


    In an era of unprecedented information and connectivity.... do we still need a representative democracy to take care of absolutely everything about the country? [This extends to local councils as well as parliament.]

    A simple example would be a decision to go to war - this could fairly easily be done with an eVote.

    Obviously, with increasing complexity of decision comes increasing complexity of voting. Taxes and spending would take some thought.


    [Or are there still too many people who aren't online and wouldn't be able to have their say?][/QUOTE

    I assume you are being serious. A recipe for disaster I would have thought. It might have worked in Athens over 2,000 years ago with a small population and even then there were checks and balances. And in Switzerland there are many nationally important subjects on which the Swiss do not vote in a referendum. A referendum on whether or not to go to war at the click of a mouse by 35 million people - doesn't bear thinking about....

    Notwithstanding you last point which, unless every single voter was equipped, would not be democratic. Maybe it all will have changed in a couple of generations but then might so much else!!!!
    Charlie

    Keep smiling - it's never as bad as you think!!

  28. #88
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    A simple example would be a decision to go to war - this could fairly easily be done with an eVote.
    The first EMP wave would wipe that little idea out, and prior to that at three minutes warning of impending doom, the whole system would crash ...

    You do realise that is how they attack institutions by bombarding them with millions of emails etc, you would be in effect doing their job for them..

    I could imagine a civil servant sitting in a little office with a swingometer on the screen and a big red button on the desk awaiting the swingometers decision prior to banging the launch button, though the launch signal would'nt get through to the subs, as all the lines would be jammed with the crew voting.




    ..
    Last edited by TonyT; 11th March 2016 at 15:13.

  29. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~Alan~ View Post
    Cameron's latest pronouncement in "Project Fear"...

    If we leave Europe, gloves and socks could cost more !!.... no comment.
    ****** I went out today to try and buy a couple dozen pairs of gloves and socks in Somerset and low and behold i was told in one store there has been a run on both lots of items and i will have to wait until after the referendum before they can get any more,so I am spending hours looking for them on the tinternet but apparently some wide boy from the tory party (I heard on the grapevine his name is Boris has bought all the UK stock just in case!!).

  30. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by EELightning View Post
    I don't want unelected Eurocrats I've never heard of before deciding on "what's best" for my country.
    Your main reason for voting leave is based on a (wilful?) complete and utter lack of knowledge of the thing you criticise.

    There's no such thing as an unelected eurocrat.

    MEP's are elected by the European population, if you can be bothered to vote.

    Members of the commission are appointed by the national governments as elected by their population.

    These are both supported by an administration which is the same as the UK government being supported by the civil service.

    The EU is not perfect and requires work. Once upon a time the Brits would have stepped up and provided the leadership that requires.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
    Bertrand Russell

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