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Thread: BREXIT - Merged thread.

  1. #2161
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    Meanwhile, a centrist victory in La France suggests the EU will live to fight another day.

  2. #2162
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    Yes. But will they take this 'not so near miss' as an opportunity to significantly reform? or will they simply refuse as they have until now?

    The evidence suggests the only way the EU ever reforms is by taking more powers, in which case even Macrons election will do little to help.

    I'm glad Le Pen wasn't elected, but it is a hollow victory for the French. They've avoided Islamophobia, Xenophobia, and antisemitism. Instead, they're going to lose a swathe of workers rights, conditions and protections, have their pensions cut, work longer hours, and have their public services trimmed. Knowing how the French hate all of that, and strike at the first opportunity, there should be plenty of drama to come.

  3. #2163
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    I haven't followed the French elections much with everything that has been going on over here, so apart from knowing that he isn't the socialist reformer they were looking for, I don't know much about the man. It looks, on the surface as if they suffered from a slew of poor candidates, and the least worst won.

    The EU have shown their colours this week. Very poor show IMHO. I know it's their right, but even so.

  4. #2164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce
    Meanwhile, a centrist victory in La France suggests the EU will live to fight another day.
    I can't understand why people claim the French elections as a success for the EU. Nearly half the electorate either didn't vote or entered a blank ballot, and 35% of those who did were so desperate to leave the EU that they voted for the French equivalent of the BNP.

  5. #2165
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    Meanwhile, back in the UK..

    Corbyn has taken on two assistants to help Diane Abbot with those difficult maths questions.

    Attachment 253215


    Picture from
    http://news.sky.com/politics

    and I really wish these loathsome creatures would stop using school kids and toddlers to sell their bile.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by TonyT; 8th May 2017 at 12:14.

  6. #2166
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    Because it is better to be safe than be trumped.

    Their advantage is a tissue, a house of cards. In the real world beyond such superficialities they have nothing in the bag. Absolutely nothing - apart from a compliant media and a convinient foreign enemy. Both could evaporate, leaving them with nothing to say. In unspun policy terms Labour have all the cards - simply by being in opposition to an austerity government. So they use what they have - 'everybody hates Jeremy', filthy foreigners and any PR machination they can apply - like this sad use of illness as political capital.
    LOL. Did you see the local elections? Labour got murdered. Conservative gains everywhere, England, Scotland and Wales. You only need to conspire to change the status quo but they don't.

  7. #2167
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    I can't understand why people claim the French elections as a success for the EU. Nearly half the electorate either didn't vote or entered a blank ballot, and 35% of those who did were so desperate to leave the EU that they voted for the French equivalent of the BNP.
    Only in that the President elect is a strong supporter of the EU.

  8. #2168
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    I can't understand why people claim the French elections as a success for the EU. Nearly half the electorate either didn't vote or entered a blank ballot, and 35% of those who did were so desperate to leave the EU that they voted for the French equivalent of the BNP.
    The EU couldn't care less about those people. There are enormous, growing numbers of people across the EU who want out, and if you include those who want major EU reform, I would say a massive majority. Yet, all you ever get from the EU is its ideological obsession with forming a United States of Europe, and that it's 4 freedoms can never be seperated.

    Who, exactly, decided on these 4 freedoms? I've never been asked. All of todays issues with the EU were predicted a long time ago by politicians of the left and the right, and contrary to the opinion of a lot of 'remoaners', leave doesn't equal fascism. On the contrary, the greatest British socialist in recent memory was vehemently opposed to the political structure and neoliberal ideology of the EU.


  9. #2169
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    Correct ! Nothing at all will ever be allowed to even slow, much less halt, the drive towards a federal EU. Altho' no one can predict with certainty the outcome, if it comes to pass, I am pleased, as we all should be, that GB is now excluded.

  10. #2170
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    Only in that the President elect is a strong supporter of the EU.
    But if they'd had someone like UKIP running the leave the EU side, how many of the non-voters would have voted?

    Macron promised to reform the EU. We'll see if he delivers on that, my money is on not.

  11. #2171
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    Thing is, Ryan, what would you do? Sit back complacently, or make sure you'd covered off all of the angles? For example, what if Labour swapped out Corbyn for Andy Burnham or the drummer from Blur?

    At the moment the chief eĺection strategy is avoiding policies and telling everyone Corbyn can't argue strongly. (May isn't debating with him on TV so as not to blow the gaffe on either of those ideas).

    But what if Corbyn goes, and they can't put together a playgound taunt list for the new guy in time? I'd take all the backup I could get to shore up the house of cards until this election is won, for that is what it is.

    Just keep on chanting. 'Strong and stable, strong and stable, strong and...'

    Political parties of all colours have strategists who are highly paid not to be as smug and stupid as the 'front men', the politicians, often are. They would tell you that maintaining any status quo in politics takes effort and yes, even a little conspiracy - even if it is to undermine or diffuse dissent. I am sure you recognise that 'strong leadership' is near the bottom.of the pile - while nationalism is the fumes of the reserve tank. After resorting to that there's nothing left within the bounds of democracy.

    So yes, I'd back it all up with whatever I could.
    Last edited by Beermat; 8th May 2017 at 15:27.

  12. #2172
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    There's more chance of Corbyn being replaced by Daniel Craig at this late stage. Corbyn isn't one for stepping aside in case you haven't noticed. After the election is another matter.

  13. #2173
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    I think they might struggle to get him out - there's a reasonable chance that May will get her landslide based purely on UKIP switchers, and the Labour vote will hold up - although there is talk of Labour working to support the vote in their heartlands, and not worry about the marginals they know they will lose, so that the overall national vote remains much the same. Bit of conspiracy for you there BM.

    Well worth a read if you are as cynical as me is 'How the Tories won', which covers the period surrounding the 2015 election. The most interesting thing in that is that the Tories carried out regular private polling which was MUCH more accurate than the polling companies. They knew where they had to work hardest to win, and did - and they also knew roughly what margin they could expect to win by. They were out by 2 seats. They also relied heavily on Facebook, which was able to specifically target the voters they wanted - down to individuals within a constituency.

    Not sure if the Labour party are using a polling 'Guru' this time around. They seem to be relying on door knocking and leaflet waving.

  14. #2174
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    I've often wondered whether knocking on doors does any good. Usually my mind has been made up at least a month in advance.

  15. #2175
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    Leaflet posting and bothering me at home is a complete turn off, only one up from the Jehova Witnesses calling.

    I to think they will struggle to shift him even if he does lose, he has with the aid of the unions and momentum secured an anchorbase that wll be difficult to break, the only thing that would probably force the issue is if he was unable to form any resemblence of an opposition due to no support from his fellow labour MP's, and as shown in the past, you will always get the also rans and lackies that know it is their only chance to ever be in a shadow government by taking up those positions and the salaries that go along with it. I mean no offence to the woman, but could you ever see the likes of Diane Abbott ever holding down a job out of governement? let alone one with such responsibility.

  16. #2176
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    Further to the above

    Mr Corbyn has also insisted he will stay on as Labour leader even if the party loses at the general election.
    He told BuzzFeed: "I was elected leader of this party and I'll stay leader of this party."
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39852719

    Rather like the turd that refuses to flush away lol.

    My worry is his we will scrap carpark fees at Hospitals, we will increase spending on this... that.... social benefits and the rest..... all have to be paid for and the only way he can do that is either tax rises or borrowing and neither are palatable.
    Last edited by TonyT; 9th May 2017 at 10:24.

  17. #2177
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    In that case the Tories will win in 2022 as well.

  18. #2178
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyT
    I really wish these loathsome creatures would stop using school kids and toddlers to sell their bile.
    I didn't realise that proposing to renationalise the railways was considered 'bile'!

  19. #2179
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    You would if you ate on the old British Rail....
    There are two sides to every story. The truth is usually somewhere between the two.

  20. #2180
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    If you anticipate good food on a train then you deserve whatever you get!

  21. #2181
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    There is still no money, and Labour are still making promises we cant afford. No change there then.

  22. #2182
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    I didn't realise that proposing to renationalise the railways was considered 'bile'!
    The things that should be under Government control or at least under UK ownership are the transport infrastructure, our fuel storage and energy supplies, power generation (gas electric nuclear ) our water suppliers, these basics should not be in foreign ownership.
    Last edited by TonyT; 9th May 2017 at 19:46.

  23. #2183
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    Why?

  24. #2184
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    Because the core infrastructure of the UK needs to be protected in case of the run up to war etc. Say we had a fall out with France and were building up to war, as the owners of EDF Energy what is to stop them introducing software into the generating systems that would cause the grid to shut down on the eve of war.... I know far fetched etc, but plausible, the same goes for the Chinese building our nuclear power stations, and you dont want the control systems on them failing during a crisis..

    You already in a way see the effects on the UK's gas supplies, lack of investment in storage means cheap gas is pumped abroad and stored to be sold back to us at higher prices during the winter periods. It is in the interests of the foreign companies and their shareholders that the UK storage capacity isn't addressed
    Last edited by TonyT; 10th May 2017 at 09:42.

  25. #2185
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    Absolutely agree with TonyT on this one! There is nothing less 'strong and stable'* than putting control over essential national infrastructure in the hands of foreign-based and multinational corporations. It is verging on insanity.

    I guess Bruce you missed the bit about how stuff will be paid for - nothing 'wild and wacky', just a slight tax increase for the super-wealthy and a hike on taxes against profit (not income) for businesses that pay corporation tax. I guess your worries would come true there, Tony.

    I am not sure it's all that unpalatable for many, though, so best keep the fake news and character assassinations up for a bit longer, eh Theresa?

    *Other candidates for 'not all that strong and stable' are: A U-turn on her position on Brexit, a U-turn on giving parliament a vote on Article 50, a U-turn on her National Insurance hike within a week (leaving a £2 billion black hole in her first budget as Prime Minister), and a U-turn on her repeated pledges not to hold an opportunistic snap election.

    Theresa May had 9 months to call a General Election before she triggered Article 50, but she refused to do it when she had the time and instead waited until three weeks after she'd set the clock ticking on the most complex and risky set of diplomatic negotiations in UK history. Neither strong nor stable.
    Last edited by Beermat; 10th May 2017 at 15:47.
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    It's all good. Probably.

  26. #2186
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    One of the worries in Germany in the military was the introduction of the likes of LSD into the water supplies by those friendly to the opposition on the ramping up to hostilities, imagine the cause and effect it would have soldiers armed with weapons and high on LSD..

    Now think of the recent scares in the UK with the Chlorination issue where hundreds of thousands were without drinking water, scale that up and introduce legionaries disease or worse into the water supplies. Shut down the national grid so there is no power and the masses would not be aware that the water was unsafe. The country would be on its knees before the first round was fired.

    Ohh and I am NOT for Labour, the Greens ( they should only be a side dish at lunch) the Lib Dems, and nor UKIP (their job is done) Simply pointing out what I see as threats to the UK.
    Last edited by TonyT; 10th May 2017 at 14:07.

  27. #2187
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    Maybe a step too far, but would you add broadband infrastructure to your list? It is increasingly regarded as a critically essential service, especially in remote areas.

  28. #2188
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    In case everyone here is filtering news through the Daily Torygraph I would like to point to something that didn't get past their censor - the Labour plan to make one uk public-owned provider for each utility available to all, in competition with the private companies.This might give options, though I can see it getting complicated where the public company has to buy your leccy from a private Chinese power station.

  29. #2189
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    I've just received an e-mail from Lawyers for Britain,. The content of the e-mail is a report titled: "The European Court of Justice is not an impartial court and has no role to play in post Brexit". I've asked Lawyers for Britain for their permission to further quote.

    The author of this report is a Dr. Gunnar Beck, Reader in Law at London University. Without breaching copyright, here is a tasty little morsel:

    The ECJ in their deliberations employ a useful little device called 'purposive interpretations'. These are legal artifices designed to enable far ranging interpretations of ECJ judgments than text based interpretation.

    This obscure practice enables lots of 'wriggle room'. Interpretation becomes a matter of perspective and, interestingly enough, the ECJ is not bound by the principles of treaty interpretation laid down in the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties.

    I've often hinted, but Is it really possible that the imaginative and entertaining works of Lewis Carroll have had some imput into the construction of the EU ?

  30. #2190
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    If anyone would like an e-mailed copy of the above report let me know.

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