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Thread: BREXIT - Merged thread.

  1. #2131
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    I know the figure of 57% is wrong, because only 44% go to Europe in total and 5% head on to other global destinations from EU ports. And JFC, just because the wheel gets invented during a period it doesn't mean the EU takes credit.

    Security co-operation pre-dates the EU.

    Since we joined the EU the manufacturing portion of GDP has dropped from 20% to 10%. The class formerly known as working is now unemployed. The EU's the sort of thing I'm not sure I'd want to be part of even if it were free.

  2. #2132
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    The test for wheel invention is where do people start using wheels? If it's across the European Union, then it's an EU invention. If it was just in the UK, then it's logical to say it would have happened anyway.

    The initiatives mentioned were pan-European.
    Last edited by Beermat; 5th May 2017 at 06:48.

  3. #2133
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    You're making assumptions. E.g. if X individual hadn't invented the wheel so many years ago, does that mean we still wouldn't have a wheel today?

  4. #2134
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    No, that's true. But unless you are suggesting that we spontaneously adopted all those things coincidentally with them becoming EU policy the facts remain what they are. The EU introduced them and we didn't. Saying 'yes, but we could have, might have, in an alternate universe' doesn't really cut it. It would be like one of the Judean People's Front in that scene saying 'Well, we COULD have introduced wine and plumbing on our own, if it wasn't for those bloody Romans doing it first, the *******s'.

  5. #2135
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    Well actually it does cut it. And the original paragraph is hopelessly Europhillic. 'Funding to areas hit by industrial decline.' Funding using our own money. A recycling culture? Does this not exist in North America and Australia also? Removal of commission on currency exchanges. Last I looked, summer last year, you still had to pay more than 20 Euros in £s for 20 Euros. Smoke free workplaces? Again this exist in North America too, without intervention from the EU. It's just a whole list of stuff that naturally happened due to social evolution that he's deciding to credit to the EU. Perhaps if these things hadn't happen outside the EU around the same time or earlier, then the argument might have a leg to stand on.

    Freedom to live across Europe? That's one of the problems, not the benefits. Free access to EU health services? All paid for by taxpayers and we pay £700m more net for UK citizens abroad than we get for taking care of EU citizens here, even though there's 3 times as many. Is the bloc negotiating really beneficial? 28 different interests. 29-way conversation vs 2-way conversation. Vastly different economies that the other party has to take into account.

  6. #2136
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    Personally my freedom to live and work across Europe in my job within a global business hasn't been a problem and has definitely been a benefit. I've found waking up in a sunny and warm Spain in the middle of the European winter most beneficial to my health and wellbeing.

  7. #2137
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    I lived through it and I disagree. Social evolution my ****.

    We live in a country where we, ordinary working people, vote for councillors belonging to a party that is ideologically bent on screwing us and our families over. Why? Because the leader of that party shouts at foreigners. How socially evolved is that, exactly?

    You think a succession of right-of-centre South-centric Governments since 1979 would have put taxpayer's money into regenerating our ex-industrial cities like the EU did? Whether or not you agree with it is a different argument. I agree we voted for a series of malevolent sods who would sooner their Eton mates got tax breaks than see yours truly get his first job in a cafe on the Albert Dock funded by Europe - which is what happened.

    You really think we are capable of any kind of spontaneous reform with this ever-decreasing level of sophistication? I despair - many do.
    Last edited by Beermat; 6th May 2017 at 07:04.

  8. #2138
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    Personally my freedom to live and work across Europe in my job within a global business hasn't been a problem and has definitely been a benefit. I've found waking up in a sunny and warm Spain in the middle of the European winter most beneficial to my health and wellbeing.
    Maybe so, but you are in a minority.

    I lived through it and I disagree. Social evolution my ****.

    We live in a country where we, ordinary working people, vote for councillors belonging to a party that is ideologically bent on screwing us and our families over. Why? Because the leader of that party shouts at foreigners. How socially evolved is that, exactly?

    You think a succession of right-of-centre South-centric Governments since 1979 would have put taxpayer's money into regenerating our ex-industrial cities like the EU did? Whether or not you agree with it is a different argument. I agree we voted for a series of malevolent sods who would sooner their Eton mates got tax breaks than see yours truly get his first job in a cafe on the Albert Dock funded by Europe - which is what happened.

    You really think we are capable of any kind of spontaneous reform with this ever-decreasing level of sophistication? I despair - many do.
    Nonsense. The Conservatives are good if you have a job and bad if you haven't, or perhaps have disabilities. The problem in the case of the latter is various people scamming the system, difficult to sort the wheat from the chaff. But their income tax policies have benefited the lowest income working people.

    Nobody shouts at foreigners except for a teeny-weeny minority. Most people recognise the benefits of controlled immigration but also see the problems of a free-for-all.

    What you have to understand is that tax is a funny thing, when you increase certain rates, the actual total amount of tax collected can go down or up with subsequent economic effects. As regards malevolent sods, are you referring to Communist-infiltrated 1970s trade unions, which were successfully smashed during the 1980s but only after they'd destroyed the British automotive sector?

    What decreasing level of sophistication are you referring to? On social evolution, it was actually the Conservatives who legalised gay marriage and the current not so Liberal Democrat leader refuses to confirm that gay sex isn't a sin. So when presented with the choice between a Marxist, a homophobe and the Tories, which is the most socially evolved?

  9. #2139
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    You think that the EU facilitated your comfort zone ?

  10. #2140
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    More than think, I know. Also when a poster makes a blanket statement that the freedom to live across Europe was a problem I'm simply suggesting it's more complex than that.

    As for Europe, who knows what will be possible in the future, still no visibility of a plan a year on.....
    Last edited by Agent K; 6th May 2017 at 16:35.

  11. #2141
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    Not in terms of the net picture. For most in the UK it was a problem. Hundreds of thousands of people landing on a country looking for work, automatically able to claim benefits after 3 months. If it was simply a matter of goods transportation, tourism, business travel and people with jobs paying >£30kpa moving around, there never would have been a problem. In its present guise, freedom of movement is really freedom of residence and residence isn't free, ergo it's a problem.

  12. #2142
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    I'm afraid that you don't know. In the knowledge that 'one swallow does not a summer make' I was swanning happily around Europe engaged in both trade and leisure well before the EU had got past the planning stage. In both cases, completely without let or hindrance. Within my network of both trade and the leisure industries, I knew of no one who had ever encountered a problem.

    The only temporary hiatus I came up against was when the French Govt. temporarily and arbitrarily imposed a tax against resident foreign recreational yacht owners called the 'deux par mille'. Reaction was swift and in short order the harbours and ports along the Cote d'Zure rapidly emptied. The tax was rescinded.

  13. #2143
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    You seem to believe you know more about my employment than I do.... however I am happy that I am 100% correct in my statement.

  14. #2144
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    Ryan I think you've summarised things well there in terms of movement of people. The original EU was balanced and I think migration was a 2 way thing where, for example, as many French came to the UK as the UK to France. The countries were economically similar and mature. Pan European businesses such as motor vehicles, aerospace, pharmaceuticals, chemicals etc. benefitted from this.

    On expansion it created a one way traffic flow whereupon laws and entitlements should have been changed.

    This was I believe one of Cameron's biggest failures to not go to Europe and influence/negotiate change to reflect the new multi level EU.

    I do however think Beermat strikes the right note I n terms of European funding and that no way would a lot of funding have been spent directly by a U.K. Government as it has been by Europe, I also think that a lot of legislation in conservation and other initiatives would not have happened.
    Last edited by Agent K; 6th May 2017 at 20:28.

  15. #2145
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    Theresa May is basing her entire shoddy and content-free election strategy on her new willingness to shout at foreigners. Ryan, have you not heard her 'bloody difficult' statement?

    Oh, and out of those three, the answer is probably the Marxist. But we weren't discussing the ideologies of leaders, I thought we were talking about the 'voting public' who's beliefs and prejudices they hope to both guide and then apparently reflect.
    Last edited by Beermat; 6th May 2017 at 20:52.

  16. #2146
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    When you get shouted at the tendency is for you to shout back. The Blessed Theresa is confronting another version - equally unsubtle - of Project Fear. She knows how to deal with it.

  17. #2147
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    She knows how to look like she's dealing with it for a month or so, to people who think 'being difficult' is a negotiation technique in itself.

    ..the socially unevolved, perhaps.
    Last edited by Beermat; 6th May 2017 at 21:15.

  18. #2148
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    Oh nice. The public-issue-free royal family unusually highlight mental health issues and a week later the only election pledge from the manefesto-free tories is more money for mental health.

    Why have the news organisations not remarked on this remarkable coincidence?
    Last edited by Beermat; 7th May 2017 at 12:13.

  19. #2149
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    Ryan I think you've summarised things well there in terms of movement of people. The original EU was balanced and I think migration was a 2 way thing where, for example, as many French came to the UK as the UK to France. The countries were economically similar and mature. Pan European businesses such as motor vehicles, aerospace, pharmaceuticals, chemicals etc. benefitted from this.

    On expansion it created a one way traffic flow whereupon laws and entitlements should have been changed.

    This was I believe one of Cameron's biggest failures to not go to Europe and influence/negotiate change to reflect the new multi level EU.

    I do however think Beermat strikes the right note I n terms of European funding and that no way would a lot of funding have been spent directly by a U.K. Government as it has been by Europe, I also think that a lot of legislation in conservation and other initiatives would not have happened.
    How much Cameron tried I can't say but I doubt the EU would have changed because it basically has a quasi-religious belief in what it calls its core principles. And religions don't really lend themselves to adaptation.

    It's debatable how much would have happened without the EU. Similar changes were occurring outside the EU in many cases.

    I think another over-looked area of impact of the EU has been trade with Commonwealth partners. Interesting story on beef and lamb and New Zealand here. The EU destroyed many pre-existing trading relationships.

    http://beefandlambmatters.blogspot.c...w-zealand.html

  20. #2150
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    Theresa May is basing her entire shoddy and content-free election strategy on her new willingness to shout at foreigners. Ryan, have you not heard her 'bloody difficult' statement?

    Oh, and out of those three, the answer is probably the Marxist. But we weren't discussing the ideologies of leaders, I thought we were talking about the 'voting public' who's beliefs and prejudices they hope to both guide and then apparently reflect.
    She had no alternative given that the EU started asking for ridiculous sums of money whilst also refusing to discuss a trade deal. They forced her to present that stance in front of the public. I'm also highly curious as to what makes up this £100bn. The current MFF lasts until 2020, we leave in 2019 and we only pay £10.8bn/year, or at least that's what we've been lead to believe. But the £100bn figure makes it look like the EU has been taking more than that.

    Yes, Marxism has worked wonders throughout the world, hasn't it?

    She knows how to look like she's dealing with it for a month or so, to people who think 'being difficult' is a negotiation technique in itself.

    ..the socially unevolved, perhaps.
    Is asking for what you want whilst refusing to consider what someone else wants a negotiating technique? Because that's been the EU's technique so far.

    Oh nice. The public-issue-free royal family unusually highlight mental health issues and a week later the only election pledge from the manefesto-free tories is more money for mental health.

    Why have the news organisations not remarked on this remarkable coincidence?
    You do know that The Queen's speech isn't actually written by The Queen right?
    Last edited by Ryan; 7th May 2017 at 13:02.

  21. #2151
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    You do know I wasn't talking about the queen's speech, right? I am guessing you don't read or watch the news.

  22. #2152
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    I was making a general point, most of what the Royal Family say doesn't come directly from them.

    But when you have headlines like this, naturally the government may respond, and that's not a bad thing really.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ildren-illness

    On mental health, the royal family is doing more than our government

  23. #2153
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    The Guardian were not with the program - they rarely are. Any PR agency would do the same, given the right connections. A royal, aparently from a clear blue sky (but more likely from a tory blue script) says 'we should do more for mental health'. The sycophants all say 'yes, it's SUCH a serious issue, you are so right, your nobbiness'. The press are full of that and the public tell themselves they too care about mental health, just like everyone cared about landmines for a season. And then right in the middle the party of goverment makes this announcement as part of the election campaign - against an opposition leader with republican sympathies.

    As I say, the Guardian headline wasn't quite on-plan. I suspect they suspect.
    Last edited by Beermat; 7th May 2017 at 17:07.

  24. #2154
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    The petition on mental health has been strong and constant for some time. I know because I get e-mails about it from Change.org. So has it ever occurred to you that just maybe the royals decided to raise the issue, and maybe the government responded to that? It's not like the Conservatives need to play complicated games to win this election, all they need to do is not say or do anything totally ridiculous within the next 4-5 weeks.

  25. #2155
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    And would you trust the current crop not to do or say anything ridiculous? May has already sailed close to the wind with 'they're all picking on me'.

    It's not complicated compared to many things which take place routinely. Also, the idea may have come from the spin team who work for the palace, who probably have far less faith than central office.

    Look, I'm not big on conspiracy theories generally, but when you stand back and look at it in the round it is rather an odd niche thing to announce in isolation, no matter how worthy, when whole NHS is crying out for help. And then when you look at it further it was a peculiar sudden emphasis and thus public awareness raising in advance from the royals (over and above any Change.org petition, of which there are many). If it barks like a dog, etc.
    Last edited by Beermat; 7th May 2017 at 18:03.

  26. #2156
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    The EU are bullying. I'll bet even you can't figure out where that £100bn figure comes from.

    So you believe the Royal family are Tory agents?

    It isn't the only initiative they're involved in. They come up with initiatives all the time.

    http://www.royalfoundation.com/our-work/

  27. #2157
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    No, not party political. But they might have something against the election of openly republican PMs if you think about it.

  28. #2158
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    Nobody needs to interfere to insure Corbyn and Abbot don't win. All they have to do is exactly nothing. Why would the Royals or any other Tory interest risk snatching defeat from the jaws of victory?

  29. #2159
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    Because it is better to be safe than be trumped.

    Their advantage is a tissue, a house of cards. In the real world beyond such superficialities they have nothing in the bag. Absolutely nothing - apart from a compliant media and a convinient foreign enemy. Both could evaporate, leaving them with nothing to say. In unspun policy terms Labour have all the cards - simply by being in opposition to an austerity government. So they use what they have - 'everybody hates Jeremy', filthy foreigners and any PR machination they can apply - like this sad use of illness as political capital.

  30. #2160
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    And to put it another way - which is less likely? A brief conversation over breakfast coffee between two PR professionals with a clear mutual interest, or a remarkable coincidence?

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