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Thread: BREXIT - Merged thread.

  1. #1
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    BREXIT - Merged thread.

    So, stay in or leave?

    With reasoning please!

  2. #2
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    Personally, I'm split.


    Leave:
    - Reduced red tape.
    - Removal of unelected (in this case foreign) beaurocrats making legally binding decisions that adversely affect millions.
    - Can negotiate own trade deals, may be advantageous for some.
    - The bloc is too big, local decision tailored to local needs.
    - Reduce money flow to EU that is spent on foreign countries.


    Stay:
    - Have to negotiate own trade deals, may be disadvantageous for some.
    - No common market.
    - No guaranteed freedom of work.
    - Altrustic to try and raise overall standard of living across continent (which will have long term benefits for us too).


    I'll think of others and add them as and when I get the chance.

  3. #3
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    I can just imagine the responses but here goes anyway.
    We need a reasoned debate on this very important subject. I know on another thread I have been dismissive of some of the personalities for which I am perhaps a little sorry ( but only a very little....). I fear, however, that the EU referendum debate will make the Scottish referendum debate seem well-informed - which would be a massive achievement by any standards.
    We only really hear about the negatives of EU membership, promoted more often than not by the right of centre press. The headlines to do with Brussels are always sensationalist.
    in the vast majority of cases our laws and policies are in line with and in many cases ahead of Brussels. The idea the the EU controls every aspect of our lives and meddles in everything is a complete fallacy. Many EU laws are standardisation between states, so we can afford the same protections in whatever state we wish to travel to.
    But, that is not to say some laws are not bonkers, but then so are some of our home grown ones- bedroom tax anyone?
    Again because of the lack of positive press coverage, I think the general population are completely unaware of the amount of money the EU contributes to big projects. Those on the fringes of the UK away from the metropolitan areas are well aware of how the infrastructure has benefited from EU funding.
    It always has made me smile when I hear the phrase "unelected Brussels Bureaucrat". They are civil servants in the same way we have "unelected London Bureaucrats" in the Home Office, DEFRA, etc.
    This chance may never come again in our lifetimes, which is why I will take the opportunity this referendum provides to vote to stay within the EU and not get mired in the longing for a fictional rose tinted past of empire and embrace a better future within an (even marginally reformed) EU
    Last edited by trekbuster; 23rd February 2016 at 20:57.

  4. #4
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    Leave.

    I agreed in the European common market in the beginning, but somewhere along the way something insidious grew out of it. Something that went far beyond the remit of what was agreed to when we voted to join.
    As for the horse cp*p about not being able to trade etc, what utter ballcocks, there is no way the likes of BMW, Audi and Mercedes would simply watch a major market disappear, they would be hammering on Merkel's door.
    If we do leave and I hope we do, one could see the EU self implode as I do not believe it could survive, that and I think other countries may well follow.

  5. #5
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    None of the above at #4 really matters very much. It is - quite simply - opinion. The writer mentions the 'EU big projects'. These projects are paid for by the British taxpayer. We have no control over how this capital is spent in terms of value. A typical example is the EU obsession with man made global warming. According to the EU, this is now an article of EU faith. Global warming might be taking place or, it might not, we have no way of knowing. But, willy-nilly, we are, thru our taxes, paying vast amounts of cash to subsidise renewal energy projects in what seems to be a bottomless pit with little connection to reality.

    I'm aware that these matters and others such as immigration, benefits, borders, defence etc., attract as many differing opinions as there are days in the year. These opinions are influenced by political affiliations and sincere beliefs as much as any thing. All that matters in any debate of Britain's future in the EU is this question:

    WHO GOVERNS BRITAIN ?

    Do you want a Britain governed by our own elected MPs, as good or as bad or as indifferent as they might be or, ruled by the EU from Brussels or Strasburg with all the scandalous waste and expense inherent in that ridiculous charade which is such an unnecessary testimony to the profligacy of the EU ruling elite ?
    Last edited by John Green; 23rd February 2016 at 22:16.

  6. #6
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    I was an ardent supporter of the Common Market and voted yes in 1975. I remain an ardent European having travelled in most of it and worked in some of it for much of my life. But I intensely reject the insidious march to a federal Europe. As do a large percentage of Europe's electorate but unlike here they will never be given the chance to express their view.

    Linking the desire to leave with a xenophobic nationalism for the UK is misleading. I just want my government in London, not Brussels.

    John - you are mistaken about the climate change legislation. Yes there are European targets but the UK has independently set its own far more stringent targets!! My feelings about the utterly discredited science driving the mad religion of AGW are well known but in our case the finger of blame should be pointed at Ed Milliband and those who followed.

    I will vote leave but in the end I think we will remain and I am not convinced it will be that close run. But I hope I am wrong. I agree with Tony - if we do leave it will precipitate the end of the EU. Although I think it will wither and die over the next 25/30 years anyway.

    Reading the latest statement from a group of ex-military commanders it seems even they are unable to distinguish the EU from NATO. But the military is by nature conservative and dislikes change and upheaval so their support for the status quo comes as little surprise.
    Last edited by charliehunt; 24th February 2016 at 08:52.

  7. #7
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    It's a difficult one, as I personally feel the EU is now too big and its straining at the seams in so many ways, but I also think staying is probably better for us at the moment. By this I mean we have easy trading between all EU partners, we have a lot of international companies based here employing 1000's of people and easy trading helps this. We have collective employment laws which allow any of us to work in any of the member states under the same conditions, it's easier to travel between other EU countries Etc.

    Having said all this I do not like how the "Stay in" campaign is using scare tactics and if anything is likely to make me vote NO it would be that.
    Martin
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  8. #8
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    Re: #6
    None of it matters very much as it is quite simply opinion

    In reply to the writer who asks the question "who governs Britain?"

    The answer is that the elected British government governs Britain. The British government is elected by the electorate. As I said it is a fallacy to claim anything else.

    In very simplistic terms, questions as to who governs a country may be diluted to whether it can define it's own position in the world order and if it can unilaterally wage war to defend that position.

    In both cases, it is possible for our elected government to make those decisions. Ergo it governs Britain

    The very fact that the decision to hold a referendum and by its result a possible exit from the EU was made by this Governement shows it has ultimate sovereignty.

    What percentage of UK law that is determined by EU statute is a very difficult one to answer figures between 10-50% can be justified according to this document-it all depends on the definition
    https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-law-w...influenced-eu/
    Last edited by trekbuster; 24th February 2016 at 10:41.

  9. #9
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    In an ideal world a country linked to the European common market as first envisaged, but free from the excess baggage the rest of the EU has become, that would be the best result, one cannot understand why Europe could not have such.

  10. #10
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    Because its raison d'etre from Monnet onwards has always been a federal republic. If the previous Labour government had not kowtowed to Brussels so emphatically and we had been given a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty I wonder where we would be now....
    Charlie

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  11. #11
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    Well.. technically, without ratification of the Lisbon Treaty we'd have no mechanism to legally leave the EU.

    Though that's a bit circular, as exit from the EU is only 'legal' or 'illegal' if you recognise EU law.
    Last edited by Beermat; 24th February 2016 at 15:21.
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  12. #12
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    Quite true. But the Lisbon Treaty would not have passed, if we had voted no, as it required unanimous approval from every member so......Nice only passed because the EU "refused" to accept the French and Irish "no" and their governments were sent scurrying back to their electorates to obtain the "correct" vote, with sufficient blandishments, of course!! If at first you don't succeed - keeeeeeep trying!!
    Charlie

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  13. #13
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    Re 9

    "What percentage of UK law is due to the EU?"

    At least 61% and rising (OECD). But if I'm referring to the OECD that will never do. That statistic is about as reliable as their analysis of British State education. Remember ? Bottom of the international league tables !

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehunt View Post

    Reading the latest statement from a group of ex-military commanders it seems even they are unable to distinguish the EU from NATO. But the military is by nature conservative and dislikes change and upheaval so their support for the status quo comes as little surprise.
    Not only the Brass Hats have this problem.
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  15. #15
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    Leave.

    There appear to be no solid, factual arguments for either side, just a load of propaganda and scaremongering.

    So, I will rely on my gut instinct, which is that the EU commission appears to be a another version of FIFA. How does Jean Claude Juncker get his position without any sort of public electioneering? no one voted for him outside Brussels. One of the most powerful people in Europe, and he was put on his throne through backroom deals. It all stinks of corruption.

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    Quote Originally Posted by j_jza80 View Post
    One of the most powerful people in Europe, and he was put on his throne through backroom deals. It all stinks of corruption.
    This - and maneouvres like it - are pretty much the largest reason as to why I'd vote exit [not saying I will - just that if I will - this will be the primary driver for deciding to.]

    The EU has unfortunately seemed to morphed into a means for a political class to further entrench themselves in power without anything in the way of accountability.

    If there was the option of an EEC, where rules on trade within the EEC - in terms of goods, services and workforces - were established and agreed, I'd vote for that. But a European Court would defer to a national court (except in a case of international issues) etc etc.

  17. #17
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    I wonder what today's scare story will be ?

    "...Cameron says that British football clubs could be excluded from European competitions if we leave..."
    Engine Failure:.... A condition which occurs when all fuel tanks mysteriously become filled with air.

  18. #18
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    Would many of us care....?
    Charlie

    Keep smiling - it's never as bad as you think!!

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    I hope the UK leaves because it makes for better drama and, as a certain butler played by Michael Caine once said, some people just like to watch the world burn. As a student of history, the slow pace of the present in the context of my own limited lifespan is often rather vexing. I'm tired of living in the shadow of the Cold War and the American unipolar moment! Bring on the next chapter!

    P.S. Once the UK leaves the EU I hope Scotland leaves the UK too. Drama, delicious drama!
    Last edited by Rii; 25th February 2016 at 16:15.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehunt View Post
    Would many of us care....?
    I doubt it Charlie, I certainly wouldn't

    The stay in campaign does seem (up until now) to be based on fear. A little light on facts though.
    Engine Failure:.... A condition which occurs when all fuel tanks mysteriously become filled with air.

  21. #21
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    No, indeed, Alan.

    "The stay in campaign does seem (up until now) to be based on fear." Running scared, I should imagine and with some justification...!! And I read that the Generals are back-pedalling rapidly...

    And I hope that Gove is given the lead part in the Leave campaign, to which he will bring clarity and conviction, and not Boris, who's bombast will add little to the debate.
    Charlie

    Keep smiling - it's never as bad as you think!!

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    The stay in campaign does seem (up until now) to be based on fear. A little light on facts though.
    The same is true for the leave campaign.

    And I hope that Gove is given the lead part in the Leave campaign
    So do I as he'll frighten the waverers into the stay camp. His comments yesterday show he has some lack of understanding of the law, which is surprising for a Justice secretary. Oh, I forgot he has a 2:1 in English so is not a lawyer after all. However it appears at the moment that none of the usual suspects want to head up a leave campaign, not even Nige as far as I can tell. Which is the official campaign- has it been decided yet?

    That statistic is about as reliable as their analysis of British State education.
    We can at least agree on that! GIGO
    Last edited by trekbuster; 25th February 2016 at 14:36.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by trekbuster View Post
    The same is true for the leave campaign.



    So do I as he'll frighten the waverers into the stay camp. His comments yesterday show he has some lack of understanding of the law.
    True but whereas the future in staying in should be crystal clear and full of facts, leaving is a step into virgin territory so facts are few and far to come by.

    At least Gove tells it as it is as opposed to the PR flummery we are getting from Cameron et al. And I wouldn't be so certain to dismiss his remarks on the legal aspects of what has been agreed. He will have taken good legal advice and I set rather more store by that than the blandishments from Mr Tusk.
    Charlie

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    And I wouldn't be so certain to dismiss his remarks on the legal aspects of what has been agreed
    OK, how about the Attorney General's opinion?
    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/polit...-a3187941.html

    Regarding the OECD, If one is sure their research is alway correct, then of course one would have to endorse their opinions on migration:
    http://www.oecd.org/migration/OECD%2...Numero%202.pdf

  25. #25
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    A government minister wheeled out by Cameron as the report says, has expressed his opinion. A political rebuttal and to be expected. The battle lines have been drawn so we'll see how it plays out. I'll stick by my original comment.
    Charlie

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  26. #26
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    And I mine!

    Pob is a vote loser
    As I have stated before, the main problem that I see with Gove and that other bastion of truth and light that is IDS, is that they are willing, like Jeremy Hunt, to continue to ignore sound statistical and evidence based information that repudiates their position purely on ideological grounds. If that can do this with things that I have personal experience of and can recognise how the truth is ignored then how can I trust them on matters that I am less well versed in? Such as the Law.
    Last edited by trekbuster; 25th February 2016 at 17:20.

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    As you emphatically said - you'll stick with your view. You and I are among the 35odd% who know how we are going to vote. It's the remaining two thirds who need convincing to your camp or mine! Let battle commence.....
    Charlie

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    Quote Originally Posted by trekbuster View Post
    The same is true for the leave campaign.



    So do I as he'll frighten the waverers into the stay camp. His comments yesterday show he has some lack of understanding of the law, which is surprising for a Justice secretary. Oh, I forgot he has a 2:1 in English so is not a lawyer after all. However it appears at the moment that none of the usual suspects want to head up a leave campaign, not even Nige as far as I can tell. Which is the official campaign- has it been decided yet?



    We can at least agree on that! GIGO

    Your grasp of sarcasm is rather excellent ! That's a bit more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trekbuster View Post
    And I mine!

    Pob is a vote loser
    As I have stated before, the main problem that I see with Gove and that other bastion of truth and light that is IDS, is that they are willing, like Jeremy Hunt, to continue to ignore sound statistical and evidence based information that repudiates their position purely on ideological grounds. If that can do this with things that I have personal experience of and can recognise how the truth is ignored then how can I trust them on matters that I am less well versed in? Such as the Law.
    Don't be modest and confine yourself to the Law !

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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehunt View Post
    Would many of us care....?
    Charlie I should think the TV audience of 4.7bn for Premier League games shown in 212 countries care quite a bit. LOL

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