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Thread: BREXIT - Merged thread.

  1. #2251
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    She should be thinking of 'the greater good'.

  2. #2252
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    Having watched the lecture I would suggest the greater good was on balance to stay in the EU.

    An interesting survey over the weekend suggested that 58% of the population Who voted to leave in the referendumwould PAY up to £1000 to retain EU citizenship if Britain leaves. 68% of the population would pay to retain citizenship. That must scare those who believe as set out in the lecture in the sovereignty of the people.

    It certainly shouldn't encourage any one thinking the UK has a strong negotiating hand, far from it
    Last edited by trekbuster; 2nd July 2017 at 16:20.

  3. #2253
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    I'm not too bothered about 'interesting surveys'. I'm more concerned about maintaining belief in democracy via the ballot box.

    I'm more concerned about interesting surveys that suggest that a clear majority would suffer any hardship including financial if it means escaping from the totalitarian clutches of the EU.

  4. #2254
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    The concept of 'greater good' is as archaic to most main-party politicians as that of a flat earth. 'Greater vote' is the only guiding principle, so its up to us to vote for what we percieve as the greater good if that is what we wish. This often means placing our X next to those we are told by the 'mainstream' are unelectable - whether that was Farage if your peception of the 'greater good' is John's, or Corbyn if it's that of many others. One thing it will never be is a modern Conservative. It is philosophically anathemic to 'New Tory" to pay attention to what might be the 'Greater good'.

  5. #2255
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    Did you actually watch it all the way through John? A lot of what he said was not encouraging for Brexshyters

    A number of points he made were explaining that the very people who voted leave because they were anti-globalisation and anti-immigration due to their perceived understanding that the EU migrants were taking their jobs and depressing wages were the ones most likely to suffer in what he describes as Thatcher's 4th term.

    If you are arguing that a clear majority all those who voted leave on the basis they were happy to be poorer because they had 'taken back control' I think you are deluding yourself.
    If you agree with him as he said in the lecture, the sovereignty of the electorate is paramount, if the electorate changes it's mind in the reality of the outcome.......

    I am assuming you saw the bit where he was explaining why he believed triggering article 50 was only providing a route to the start of negotiations to leave, not the final act of leaving, thus allowing for the process to end in a decision to stay as a possibilty?

    Not that it is likely, but he also explained how the current composition of the Commons and the Lords could make the process of getting legislation theough quite difficult as there is no mandate as TM wanted for her vision.
    Last edited by trekbuster; 2nd July 2017 at 21:10.

  6. #2256
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    She should be thinking of 'the greater good'.
    I couldn't agree more, far from now working from a strong power base she has royally screwed it all up and making compromises to pander to other parties is just a disaster in the making, how the heck the guy is supposed to fight for the best deal for the UK when she has tied his hands behind his back is beyond me, She is now thinking of the "Greater Me" and NOT THE "Greater Good" for the Country.

    Not that it is likely, but he also explained how the current composition of the Commons and the Lords could make the process of getting legislation theough quite difficult as there is no mandate as TM wanted for her vision.
    End of the day she did win the election even if she tried to lose it and has the largest majority of MP's returned so she does have a mandate, all be it a weakened one. The House of Lords wants reforming and scrapping as they are not fit for purpose, they are neither elected nor needed in this day and age.
    Last edited by TonyT; 3rd July 2017 at 09:54.

  7. #2257
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    I was convinced of three things by that lecture:

    a) The main point that there is little to negotiate, it has to be a hard Brexit because we have nothing to bargain with. His tennis club analogy is perfect - we announce we are leaving the tennis club because we don't like the fees or the rules, then on our way to the door try to negotiate being let back on to the courts to carry on playing tennis. It just doesn't work.

    b) Negotiations therefore don't need to take very long - we are only supposed to be discussing the mechanisms for exit anyway, not the terms.

    c) Once we have done that the totality of Brexit - everything that it actually will mean in concrete terms because that is the agreement - is put in front of the British people and a second referendum - this time with honest terms of reference - is held. After that, with the mechanism already agreed and nothing else to argue about, it then happens quickly and cleanly, or it doesn't.

    We went about this in completely the wrong order, but only because no-one who called the vote expected the result. If May were to put that simple plan in front of the nation she would do wonders for her position.
    www.whirlwindfighterproject.org
    It's all good. Probably.

  8. #2258
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    Seems that some people have had a change of heart
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7820286.html

  9. #2259
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    Beermat,

    It is simply wrong on every understanding of democracy to vote and vote again until you get the result you want. The EU are - as you know, renowned for this ploy.

    There is at play in this country a very worrying tendency to suggest replaying events, if you didn't like the original decision then have another go.

    If the Referendum vote had gone in the favour of Remain do you honestly - honestly now - think that the Leavers would have uttered a squeak ? No.

    All of which tends to confirm my belief that the protests squeezing from the Remainers are the protests more usually associated with the 'far left' and their totalitarian instinct to try to re-write political history.

  10. #2260
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    Surveys depend on who they talk to.
    I read an article a couple of days ago about a journalist who trotted off to Rotherham, I think that's where his mum was from, to interview all the people who'd changed their minds since the referendum.
    He couldn't find anybody who had...

  11. #2261
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    Yep, she needs to let the guy have a free reign to get the best he can so we can all move on.. Bloody politicians and Civil servants just make things complicated, agree what is happening with fishing, borders, immigration and trade, Write the rest of the EU laws into UK law ( which they probably already are) and then post Brexit take your time and ditch the parts we do not want or need.

    Subsidies is another one that for me is confusing, they say we owe XYZ to the EU, but surely part of those monies will be in effect what the EU pays to the UK, so in effect if you pay the EU, you will not need to be shelling out XYZ to replace those subsidies to farmers etc until after the cut of date for our payments into the EU budget, and that will be past the 2 year date if that is what they are saying.

  12. #2262
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    No, John, you misunderstand, perhaps deliberately. You are determined to see a left-wing plot in everything, aren't you?

    It's not about getting the 'right' result, you are setting this up as confrontational when it's not meant to be. This would be about getting an INDISPUTABLE result, as no one - not either side - could argue that people didn't understand what they were voting for.

    The last vote was on 'do we want to leave the European Union' and the whole 'Go for it Theresa, now get us a nice deal that'll stuff it to those foreigners' school of Brexit suggests that many - including a lot of people who should know better - didn't actually understand the consequences of what they were voting for.

    It's not May's fault (ok, the pre-election plastic-Thatcher posturing was) - 'Brexit means Brexit' is not just an empty phrase - she was pointing out that it's already all or nothing, we have announced we are leaving the tennis club and all she is really discussing is how we disengage in all areas (whether we get to keep the rackets), not how much or in what areas (what club courts we can still play on).

    It's just that her more stupid cheerleeders aren't getting the message. What she can achieve in terms of cherry-picking the best bits to keep is a fat zero. Did you not follow the chap - I'm guessing you didn't sit through it all, understandable if you haven't had the practice in receiving an hour's lecture that higher education gives you.

    The point is when we see what we are voting on we can have a vote on it. My understanding of democracy is that this is a preferable way of doing things. What is wrong with one vote to trigger the negotiations and then another on the negotiated deal? It's just a two-stage approval process, not a hunt for a particular result.

    I honestly don't know which way that second vote would go.

    Your disapproval suggests you would rather the result of a less well informed vote stood without the more informed (ie 'deal on the table') second stage.
    Last edited by Beermat; 3rd July 2017 at 15:33.
    www.whirlwindfighterproject.org
    It's all good. Probably.

  13. #2263
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    I cannot see any reason why a second vote is needed, we had a referendum to come out and that then puts the onus of the Government of the day to negotiate the best deal possible while abiding to the will of the people to leave.
    Why on earth we need another vote is beyond me, what happens if people are not happy with it as it will be at the end of the two year period, and how the hell would you vote on it?
    Say 99% were happy with the immigration part, but 0% with the trade deal, would you then split the referendum up to vote on every individual part? Of course not, but if you had a second vote on the deal in total and the trade deal part vetoed it, you would not know that the immigration bit was acceptable, so you would end up having to renegotiate that part too. And then what, the two year period is up so we are out and no deal is in place.
    Last edited by TonyT; 3rd July 2017 at 21:44.

  14. #2264
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    True, but then again the vote would be on the whole package, it would be for each individual to decide the relative importance of the positives and negatives to them and decide whether the whole thing is worth doing or not. As all the factors will be known this balanced judgement will be possible in a way it wasn't before or at the time of the last referendum. I am not suggesting people needed 'educating', that's a vile conceit. What I mean is people didn't know what real life Brexit IS, because it hadn't been shaped by negotiation, and let's face it some of us were under all kinds of illusions about it - me included. A second referendum would be appropriate - and not a second vote on the same thing, a first vote on a different thing - a solid proposition, not a sampling of public feeling blown on the winds of all kinds of misinformation from both sides.
    Last edited by Beermat; 4th July 2017 at 10:23.

  15. #2265
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    "What is wrong?"

    You're giving yourself two bites of the cherry on essentially the same subject. Predictable left wing greed !

  16. #2266
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    True, but then again the vote would be on the whole package, it would be for each individual to decide the relative importance of the positives and negatives to them and decide whether the whole thing is worth doing or not. As all the factors will be known this balanced judgement will be possible in a way it wasn't before or at the time of the last referendum. I am not suggesting people needed 'educating', that's a vile conceit. What I mean is people didn't know what real life Brexit IS, because it hadn't been shaped by negotiation, and let's face it some of us were under all kinds of illusions about it - me included. A second referendum would be appropriate - and not a second vote on the same thing, a first vote on a different thing - a solid proposition, not a sampling of public feeling blown on the winds of all kinds of misinformation from both sides.
    But that is what I am saying it wouldn't work, OK say they vote on the package, 99% as I said think the immigration deal is great but not the trade deal so they vote no on the whole package, those then having to renegotiate it do not know that the public like the immigration deal so will have to renegotiate it, the same as all of the other parts, next time 99% might like the new trade deal but reject it because of the new immigration deal is terrible... and so it goes on.. without voting on individual parts you would be on a roundabout to hell... and still the clock has expired because this vote will only happen close to the cut off deadline, and if you vote no, then there is NO DEAL, END OFF.
    Last edited by TonyT; 4th July 2017 at 11:53.

  17. #2267
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    Re:#2265
    It is typical right wing greed that got us into this mess.

    But seriously, as most sensible commentators have pointed out, including our Chancellor of the Exchequer, no deal would be a disaster.
    Last edited by trekbuster; 4th July 2017 at 12:20.

  18. #2268
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    One would hardly call Hammond a sensible commentator ! He's a Remainer and The Blessed Theresa should move him on by promoting him. Quite where you'd put him I know not.

    The far left's attempts at referendum mischief making can be seen as just that. Get used to it - we're leaving.

  19. #2269
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    Sorry, is this the same Theresa who called an unnecessary election, lost the majority, sold her soul to the DUP, who has tied the hands of key negotiators (although to be fair there's nothing much to negotiate, GB is leaving the EU and will progress quickly to the status of minor player in the world) and will be gone by the year end.

    Blessed?, I think not, cursed is a more appropriate word I feel.

  20. #2270
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    You've been eating too much cheese before going to bed !

    GB's exit from the paternalistic totalitarian clutch of the EU was, always, simply a matter of time. With Germany and France, both of them possessing the totalitarian instinct in abundance as the prime motivators of the EU - altho' that could be changing - it was plain that any association with GB at any but the most distant level was bound, eventually to fail.

    I've always thought that the most workable system was the simplest. A Europe dominated financially by a demilitarised Germany with the French hopefully having rediscovered their elan after the debacle of WW2, exercising a moderating influence.

    Freed from any close involvement with continental Europe, GB pursues its internationalist vision and awakens dormant trade contacts with its former Empire.

    Ambassador to the former Empire - that's a grand title - could be a new job for Hammond.

    AK.
    Don't read this before going to bed. I don't wish to be responsible.

  21. #2271
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    JG, good observation, I am rather fond of those tasty cheeses our wonderful European friends provide to us, Camembert, Edam, Goada, Brie, I best make the most of them before import duties make them prohibitively expensive and we have to survive on stale bread and hard British cheese......

    .... I am (thankfully) partial to Wensleydale too.....

  22. #2272
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    C'mon AK

    The King/Emperor of cheeses ? Stilton eh ! Followed of course by mature cheddar. However this is an interesting line. The thought of losing all those excellent continental cheeses you listed turns me into a confirmed Remainer. I'd launch an invasion of France to maintain a supply of runny Brie poured into a baguette.

    You're not such a bad lad after all !

  23. #2273
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    Brie and cold Bacon on a crusty baguette...... washed down with a nice chilled white........ life does not get much better.

  24. #2274
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    Tony,

    May I join you ?

  25. #2275
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    I have no idea what you think the left in particular would get out of a rejection of Brexit. Sometimes your reasoning is clouded by your hatred of progressive politics.

    Have you not noticed the anti-EU membership stance of Labour's left for many decades? Or the confusion in the tabloid press as they wished to paint Corbyn a hypocrite for saying his party would follow the referendum result - and then couldn't as 'leave' was his view too?

    Someone pointed out on the radio the irony of remainers pinning their hopes on leaver JC sabotaging Brexit, which he won't, while leavers are pinning their hopes of a good Brexit on remainer TM getting some kind of 'deal', which she can't.

    Tony, perhaps you're right. One referendum was enough to make nothing make sense any more.
    Last edited by Beermat; 4th July 2017 at 19:25.

  26. #2276
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  27. #2277
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    QueasyJet is just doing an AOC really to make sure they can operate in the EU, they will still fly in and out of the U.K. RyanScare remember operate from Eire, so will probably have similar in place if not already.

  28. #2278
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    Working in the airline industry I fully understand what EZ are doing and FR will always be FR. Nonetheless it's additional expense and cost and is taking some jobs out of the UK.

  29. #2279
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    Mmmmm, again not looking good....

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/vc-fir...ampaign=buffer

  30. #2280
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    So we're readjusting our expectations from wonderful times ahead to survival?

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ampaign=buffer

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