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Thread: RuAF News and development Thread part 15

  1. #3001
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isengard View Post
    PAK-FA will supercruise over Mach 2 just like MiG-31 and can carry large long range missiles like izd 810 so it can take the MiG-31 role. PAK-DP can just use variant of PAK-FA T-50.
    its MIG31 replacement 6G fighter .so it is highly mach 4 class.

  2. #3002
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isengard View Post
    We're talking about PAK-FA not Su-27. PAK-FA with bigger wings and more powerful engines can easily supercruise at 2000+km/h like MiG-31. PAK-FA can also climb and defend itself much better and can climb at 384 m/s. See around 8 minute mark.
    "Easily supercruise at 2000+km/h like MIG-31"

    ?! Thats news!

    Do you have any source stating that the MiG-31 can fly at "2000 km/h+" without using reheat?

  3. #3003
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSR View Post
    its MIG31 replacement 6G fighter .so it is highly mach 4 class.
    Why not mach 5..? Its just sounds so much stronker.
    Thanks

  4. #3004
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    I saw the debate in State Duma for Mig-31 replacement , They seem to suggest that restarting Mig-31 production line with all the associated infra and engine will end up getting as costlier then rebuilding a new one , The difference was not much hence building new design would be better. The speed mentioned was closer to Mach 4.

    The top speed would be between Mach 3 and 4 not much different compared to Mig-25 that flew at Mach 3.2 like 3-4 decades back
    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

  5. #3005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkut View Post
    You are right regarding supercruise but wrong re F-22. It is not overhyped and yes MiG-31 has longer range while being supersonic by bruteforcing it. But with F-22 USAF had a choice between more fuel or better maneuverability. F-22 ended up with more maneuverability.
    It's not the F-22 to being overhyped, just the supercruise capability i.e. being able to get supersonic cruise speed without using reheat.
    The F-22 is an excellent fighter-interceptor in the sense it can reach very high quotes and in the same time retaining a good manoeuvrability when in there, PAK-FA with izd 30 would be also have those capability but both they are still another thing than MiG-25,-31 and their successor when it will come to speed and range, vital when you have to try to intercept nuclear cruise missiles.

  6. #3006
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    I see it similar.. Supercruise is not a goal, it is just a tool to reach a goal.. which is range.. if, in the end, you end up with a fighter capable of high supercruise speeds but still lacking range, then you haven't achieved much..

  7. #3007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isengard View Post
    PAK-FA will supercruise over Mach 2 just like MiG-31 and can carry large long range missiles like izd 810 so it can take the MiG-31 role. PAK-DP can just use variant of PAK-FA T-50.
    Plus they could make an interceptor variant to better tailor it to the job. The more I think about it, the more I think that a Mig -31 replacement is a boon for the complex. They should just make a Pak Fa interceptor variant. The pod style engine design could allow for just bigger engines.

    Isn't engine size and fuel storage the only thing stopping the current Pak fa from having the same capability as the Mig 31 ?

    Maybe they should dust off that Mig 1.44. It was originally intended to be a Mig 31 replacement of sorts. Or just get the J 20 back in the form of a production licence

    Berkut is just dreaming.
    Last edited by KGB; 21st March 2017 at 13:38.

  8. #3008
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    I agree. Can't see how we will manage to fund another one fullscale 5gen program. Making PAK-FA variant for PVO, just like the Su-27P was made for PVO during Soviet times, would be the most cost-effective and the only realistic way, especially given current economical situation and trend.

  9. #3009
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    Quote Originally Posted by haavarla View Post
    Why not mach 5..? Its just sounds so much stronker.
    that willl spaced based orbital weopons. hypersonic weopons and aircraft are Russia core competency and they going to develop further. i dont see any economic problem in post 2020.

  10. #3010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sintra View Post
    Do you have any source stating that the MiG-31 can fly at "2000 km/h+" without using reheat?
    The supersonic cruising speed of the MiG-31 is 2500 km / h.
    The engine operates in the "minimum afterburner" mode. The flight range is 1249 - 1300 km, the flight time is 43 - 45 minutes. Probably after the launch of the missiles the plane flies at subsonic speed.

  11. #3011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scar View Post
    I agree. Can't see how we will manage to fund another one fullscale 5gen program. Making PAK-FA variant for PVO, just like the Su-27P was made for PVO during Soviet times, would be the most cost-effective and the only realistic way, especially given current economical situation and trend.
    You are saying it as if Su-27P was radically different from Su-27S... It was just a rebranding, some changes in coms systems, nothing more. Again, for a millionth time - MiG-31 exists for a reason. And that reason is to do the things Su-27 clearly cant do.

  12. #3012
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    Quote Originally Posted by KGB View Post
    Plus they could make an interceptor variant to better tailor it to the job. The more I think about it, the more I think that a Mig -31 replacement is a boon for the complex. They should just make a Pak Fa interceptor variant. The pod style engine design could allow for just bigger engines.

    Isn't engine size and fuel storage the only thing stopping the current Pak fa from having the same capability as the Mig 31 ?

    Maybe they should dust off that Mig 1.44. It was originally intended to be a Mig 31 replacement of sorts. Or just get the J 20 back in the form of a production licence

    Berkut is just dreaming.
    Why is Berkut dreaming?

    The next thing you have to explain to us, how would you accommodate 20000L of INTERNAL fuel on this PakFa Interceptor?

    Don't you guys understand anything in how this work! You would basicly need to design a all new platform. You could make it PakFa'ish with different set of airfoils, but it would have to be 40-60% larger in size.

    That people.. means nothing else than a new Interceptor Program! And you would need to heavily tweak the D30-F6 engines or get new engines. Cause no one here can say the Idz-30 engine has the right requirements to operate like the D-30-F6 engines does. Namely on prolonged AB settings.

    After some time doing research on the D30-F6 engine. I can only conclude Aviadvigatel designed it with many different AB settings, and that on minimal Burner, it consume less fuel compared to other jet engines with same settings.
    Also, we are talking about a low-bypass TurboFan engine. The PakFa engine is a Turbojet engine. There is a big difference here.
    Last edited by haavarla; 21st March 2017 at 15:53.
    Thanks

  13. #3013
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    Quote Originally Posted by haavarla View Post
    .... The PakFa engine is a Turbojet engine. There is a big difference here.
    Since when will the T50 use a Turbojet ???
    ...

    He was my North, my South, my East and West,
    My working week and my Sunday rest,
    My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
    I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

    The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
    Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
    Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
    For nothing now can ever come to any good.
    -------------------------------------------------
    W.H.Auden (1945)

  14. #3014
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkut View Post
    You are saying it as if Su-27P was radically different from Su-27S... It was just a rebranding, some changes in coms systems, nothing more. Again, for a millionth time - MiG-31 exists for a reason. And that reason is to do the things Su-27 clearly cant do.
    I say it like it was different FCS. And again - we don't have money on another one fullscale program.

  15. #3015
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deino View Post
    Since when will the T50 use a Turbojet ???
    Sorry. i meant high-Bypass Turbofan engine. Eighter way, its bound to have a different bypass and different number fan stages.

    D30F6:

    General characteristics
    Type: Twin-spool non-afterburning turbofan
    Length: 4.836 m
    Diameter: 57.3 in (1.46 m)
    Dry weight: 5082 lb (2305 kg)
    Components
    Compressor: Axial, 3 stage fan/low pressure compressor, 11 stage high pressure compressor
    Combustors: Can-type
    Turbine: 2 stage high pressure turbine, 4 stage low pressure turbine
    Performance
    Maximum thrust: 23,150 lbf (103 kN)
    Overall pressure ratio: 17:1
    Specific fuel consumption: 0.498 lb/lbf·hr
    Thrust-to-weight ratio: 3.8:1
    Last edited by haavarla; 21st March 2017 at 16:23.
    Thanks

  16. #3016
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    About creating a new generation of helicopters

    Speech at the first meeting of the College of Aviation at the Government of the Russian Federation 06.03.2017

    https://www.aex.ru/docs/3/2017/3/20/2582/

    Boginsky Andrei Ivanovich
    Director General of JSC "Russian Helicopters"

    Dear colleagues! In the development and manufacture of helicopters holding company "Russian Helicopters", it uses as its own scientific and technical potential, and also the achievements of Russian science and technology organizations. Improving the range of development carried out in two areas: modernization of existing machines and the creation of a new generation of helicopters. The major criteria for deciding whether a customer-oriented and multi-purpose nature of the art being created. It caters not only to the needs of customers, but also to strengthen the position of the Russian helicopter industry, as well as the domestic and global markets.



    Currently, the most widespread in the domestic market are middle-class helicopters. Certified and started the production of multi-purpose helicopter Mi-171A2, which will replace the Mi-8, Mi-17. At the helicopter made more than 20 major design changes. Helicopter has a powerful economic engine Russian production "Klimov", a new rotor with composite blades improved aerodynamics and a so-called glass cockpit.



    In the development of a set of measures has been provided, which allowed to reduce labor costs for maintenance, optimize the cost of flight hours and implement the concept of reducing costs for our operators. The helicopter used for transport and passenger transport in the interests of a wide range of operators, including transportation of the watch, loads on offshore rigs in the interests of fuel and energy complex. In 2017, it will be produced and delivered to customers 4 helicopters.



    Work continues on the implementation of the program of promotion of the new Mi-38. Thanks to the technical solutions used the helicopter is superior to other helicopters in its class in payload, passenger capacity, the basic flight characteristics. The helicopter is certified, the first delivery of the passenger modification of the helicopter is planned in 2018. The helicopter can be used in a wide range of climatic conditions, including marine, tropical, cool climate, including in the Arctic.

    Currently, the holding company specialists are working to further expand the performance, increased payload, enhance operational capabilities in the high altitude and extreme temperatures.



    The class of light helicopters manufactured by the holding company, represented by models "ANSAT" and Ka-226. Light multipurpose helicopter "ANSAT" certified in a variety of applications - passenger, health, universal. We assume that it will replace the Mi-2 on the whole range of tasks, ensure a high level of safety and enhanced transport capabilities.

    In 2016 the first Russian cars to commercial customers, export contracts have been delivered. The machine has a spacious cargo cabin, which is being converted to different variants of the target application. "ANSAT" can be used to solve a wide range of tasks. Currently, this is the most sought-after helicopter to meet the challenges of air ambulance, it can also be used for cargo delivery, passenger and initial training.



    Light multipurpose helicopter Ka-226T is built on a modular pattern and is available in a variety of targeted modifications, apply to a wide range of tasks in the interests of civil air operations. Ka-226T has increased altitude performance. Today, among other things, we are actively pursuing the Russian-Indian project for the joint production of helicopters.



    Separately, the direction of the national economy problems - a helicopter for operation in harsh climatic conditions and helicopters for Arctic conditions. In addition to helicopters, which are now produced and are planning to start in the near future, the holding is already supplying modern equipment, which is adapted for use in regions with poorly developed transport networks, in the far north, in the Arctic. In 2016, 4 of the helicopter for the company "Rosneft" were delivered. The Mi-38 will create new transport capacity for government and commercial customers.



    Promising average commercial helicopter. On the basis of scientific and technical reserve formed in previous years, including in the framework of long-term high-speed helicopter, which is implemented under the auspices of the Industry and Trade Ministry, is developing a promising medium commercial helicopter. Basic helicopter configuration provides the ability to create a wide range of civil helicopter modifications and special purpose. Features allow you to carry up to 22 passengers.



    The helicopter of light class. Another direction of the holding company is to create a single-engine light multipurpose helicopter maximum takeoff weight of up to 2 tons. It is the mass segment of the global civil helicopter market, related to general aviation. For us, this new segment.

    Here, we set ourselves the following objectives:

    * create a product attractive for commercial customers as well as for personal use;
    * to enter new markets for us;
    * This helicopter has good prospects in the niche corporate transport, monitoring fuel and energy facilities, initial training.

    A key advantage of the product is the transport performance and range, the best-in-class helicopters.



    Today Dmitry O. and colleagues have already talked about the fact that the state attaches great importance to the aviation industry. In previous periods was GTLK capitalize not only on the job of aircraft, last year 3.8 billion rubles were made in GTLK capital to address the medical evacuation tasks. These funds are used for the construction of "ANSAT", Mi-8 and Mi-17. Today, together, our colleagues from GTLK, Industry and Trade and the Ministry of Health are actively working with the regions. Today we see increased demand and would ask colleagues to support us in this and in the following periods.

    Entering the market with the new civilian products always fraught with additional financial burden, as the manufacturer, and the operator. Success in sales depends largely on the development of the market of services and availability of financial instruments. As I said, the program is actively developing on medevakuatsiya, extending the vesting period for 2018 and subsequent years will allow us to increase the order book and the regions to raise the level of medical care, especially in critical situations and difficult terrain. Also, we consider it expedient to study the possibility of including helicopter services in the compulsory health insurance scheme (OMC), which would allow to offset the costs, including insurance companies and organizations in the medical evacuation. Solution of the problem to improve the transport accessibility could also help to subsidize passenger traffic, using helicopters in remote areas, the organization of regular routes in areas with underdeveloped land transport infrastructure and the development of ground infrastructure for use of helicopters.

    Dear Dmitry O.! Dear members of the board, we were asked to give relevant instructions in the minutes of today's meeting, to include in the plan the discussion of these issues at the upcoming meeting of the Board. In general, I have everything. Accordingly, the main problem that we see today, are actively developing - is to increase accessibility for carriers of our aircraft. Of course, the new aircraft technology will be more expensive than the amortized equipment produced earlier. That's just solve this problem, it seems to us, it should be discussed in the next meeting of the Board. In order to harmonize the approaches, both for producers and for the operators.
    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

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  18. #3018
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scar View Post
    I say it like it was different FCS. And again - we don't have money on another one fullscale program.
    In post 2020 period with current procurement Russia will be controlling world airtraffic, waterways and the most efficient pipeline and cargo rail system . I don't see any problem with financing . Military buildup automatically attract investment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JSR View Post
    In post 2020 period with current procurement Russia will be controlling world airtraffic, waterways and the most efficient pipeline and cargo rail system . I don't see any problem with financing . Military buildup automatically attract investment.
    Of course you don't see: http://www.vedomosti.ru/economics/ar...31129/normal/1

  20. #3020
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    I don't pay attention to economic forecast as they don't take into account military power.

    http://m.gulfnews.com/business/secto...sion-1.1987918

    http://rbth.com/defence/2017/01/25/n...-russia_688581

  21. #3021
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    Quote Originally Posted by haavarla View Post
    Why is Berkut dreaming?

    The next thing you have to explain to us, how would you accommodate 20000L of INTERNAL fuel on this PakFa Interceptor?

    Don't you guys understand anything in how this work! You would basicly need to design a all new platform. You could make it PakFa'ish with different set of airfoils, but it would have to be 40-60% larger in size.

    That people.. means nothing else than a new Interceptor Program! And you would need to heavily tweak the D30-F6 engines or get new engines. Cause no one here can say the Idz-30 engine has the right requirements to operate like the D-30-F6 engines does. Namely on prolonged AB settings.

    After some time doing research on the D30-F6 engine. I can only conclude Aviadvigatel designed it with many different AB settings, and that on minimal Burner, it consume less fuel compared to other jet engines with same settings.
    Also, we are talking about a low-bypass TurboFan engine. The PakFa engine is a Turbojet engine. There is a big difference here.
    20k fuel is what it would take to get the same performance and perform the same mission scope as the Mig 31 ?

    I think the mission scope and strategy could be augmented to suit the Pak Fa interceptor rather than just try and make the Pak fa do what the Mig 31 does.

  22. #3022
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    Quote Originally Posted by TR1 View Post
    Not a fan of the green interior.

  23. #3023
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkut View Post
    You are right regarding supercruise but wrong re F-22. It is not overhyped and yes MiG-31 has longer range while being supersonic by bruteforcing it. But with F-22 USAF had a choice between more fuel or better maneuverability. F-22 ended up with more maneuverability.
    The PAK-FA is faster plane than F-22 with much more fuel and much sleaker and more aerodynamic shape. It can do interceptor role much better than F-22 can ever dream. Most economic solution is to use PAK-FA variant for interceptor because it can do most of MiG-31 job.

  24. #3024
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSR View Post
    I don't pay attention to economic forecast as they don't take into account military power.
    No one, and macroeconomics especially, doesn't care - what you pay attention to. We're stagnating and have no drivers, anymore, for economic growth - that's a fact.

  25. #3025
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    Quote Originally Posted by KGB View Post
    20k fuel is what it would take to get the same performance and perform the same mission scope as the Mig 31 ?

    I think the mission scope and strategy could be augmented to suit the Pak Fa interceptor rather than just try and make the Pak fa do what the Mig 31 does.
    20k liters yes. That is why it have such long legs in both Supersonic and subsonic range.
    You will never ever get PakFa up to such specs, not without major redesigning.

    The termo limits of PakFa skin will also make it sub par with Mig-31. You would burn/melt off the RAM skin if you go much over Mach 2, never mind any higher.
    Thanks

  26. #3026
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isengard View Post
    The PAK-FA is faster plane than F-22 with much more fuel and much sleaker and more aerodynamic shape. It can do interceptor role much better than F-22 can ever dream. Most economic solution is to use PAK-FA variant for interceptor because it can do most of MiG-31 job.
    T-50 is faster than F-22 only in the same world where T-50 can act as an interceptor better than PAK-DP.

    That world doesnt exist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkut View Post
    T-50 is faster than F-22 only in the same world where T-50 can act as an interceptor better than PAK-DP.

    That world doesnt exist.
    I got to ask, why do you think the T-50 will end up being slower than the F-22?

  28. #3028
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scar View Post
    No one, and macroeconomics especially, doesn't care - what you pay attention to. We're stagnating and have no drivers, anymore, for economic growth - that's a fact.
    I don't see any stagnation. Stagnation means when debt creation and resource depletion are faster than GDP. Japan /Korea/India are the example.

  29. #3029
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    Quote Originally Posted by FalconDude View Post
    I got to ask, why do you think the T-50 will end up being slower than the F-22?
    Because it was stated by the former VVS chief it will be doing Mach 2.0 tops, because composites on it are not able to handle F-22 like speeds/temperatures ("It will do 1600mph") and because Flateric has said so many times. Even if T-50 is magically able to match Su-27 speed, that still puts it below F-22. And T-50 with izd.117's is certainly slower at supercruise than F-22 with its Mach 1.7-1.78 SC. With izd.30, we shall see.

    Lastly T-50 just doesnt need to have higher speed than F-22, SC or top speed. It does need to have larger range though, both at sc and subsonic. And we know for a fact it does have larger range than F-22.
    Last edited by Berkut; 21st March 2017 at 22:04.

  30. #3030
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSR View Post
    I don't see any stagnation. Stagnation means when debt creation and resource depletion are faster than GDP. Japan /Korea/India are the example.
    It's already obvious that you don't see anything. Neither recession in the previous two years, nor stagnation now. I remember such people as you, right before USSR died - they too didn't see what's coming...poor idiots.

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