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Thread: RuAF News and development Thread part 15

  1. #3511
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    The Yak-130 chase plane performed some mellow aerobatics to conclude today's event, great:


  2. #3512
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    Technology wise how good is that MS-21 ?

  3. #3513
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikoyan
    Technology wise how good is that MS-21 ?
    Somebody with more insight can probably fill you in on this properly, but the main thing about this plane is that it's all supposed to be pretty much state-of-the-art, with a spanking fresh FBW system, unique composite wings and wingbox (made by AeroComposit using a cutting edge out-of-autoclave technique), modern geared turbofans that match the best in the world and so on and so forth.

    This unlike the Sukhoi SSJ or the Comac C919, that while somewhat competitive (at least the former has found some success here and there) most things about them is "legacy" and not up there with the latest stuff that for example Boeing and Airbus are doing.

    The plane that flew today is powered by Pratt & Whitneys:


    ...which is all good, but if the PD-14 turns out to be what people are hoping for, then it's a major achievement on Russia's part that really adds to the significance of the MS-21, and finally something to boast about that is not military (first time in thirty years or something)...

    The PD-14 has been flying for quite a while on the Il-76LL and the second phase of flight testing was concluded a little while ago with good results from what I hear, so let's keep some fingers crossed.

  4. #3514
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    you cant have too much of a good thing so one more video
    Last edited by nkvd; 28th May 2017 at 15:55.

  5. #3515
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    ...which is all good, but if the PD-14 turns out to be what people are hoping for, then it's a major achievement on Russia's part that really adds to the significance of the MS-21
    MS-21 designer had mentioned in an interview that PD-14 will give MS-21 1 % fuel advantage over PW1400
    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

  6. #3516
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    I read it has 6500 km range in basic version with higher speed than competitors not.Thegger version will be more. This thing is approaching wide body market.

  7. #3517
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    Quote Originally Posted by Austin
    MS-21 designer had mentioned in an interview that PD-14 will give MS-21 1 % fuel advantage over PW1400
    I don't think the PD-14 is any better than the PW, at least on the tech side it isn't, with one generation older fan/compressor blades, a simpler design overall and so on. It may at least partially make up for that with its smaller diameter, lesser weight and lesser price, plus its (envisioned) superior serviceability (ease and cost).

    But that's up for debate at a later point, it's impossible to tell at this stage. The main thing is that if it really does live up to its projected specifications, it meets the criteria for being a modern and properly (even internationally) competitive engine for civilian aircraft in this class, despite not being absolutely cutting-edge, and that's a big leap forward from pretty much everything Russia has built in the past and builds at present (the PowerJet doesn't count). On the military side of things, Russia has stayed in the game rather well but its aerospace industry needs diversification of this kind.

    The PD-14 design is obviously a platform to improve upon in the future as well, with for example next-gen composite blades and what not, so there's that angle to consider too. Russian aerospace needs this kind of stuff, it's been stuck in a rut rehashing obsolete tech for far too long.
    Last edited by Dr.Snufflebug; 28th May 2017 at 20:48.

  8. #3518
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    VMF Su-30SM with Kh-29:



    Egyptian MiG-29:

    http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/9098/rsz11rsz3807.jpg

  9. #3519
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    Quote Originally Posted by Austin
    MS-21 designer had mentioned in an interview that PD-14 will give MS-21 1 % fuel advantage over PW1400
    As Snufflebug says, not going to happen without some accounting gymnastics. Both the LEAP-1 and PW1000G have a couple of advantages in mainly propulsive efficiency (due to having a higher bypass ratio) which give them better fuel consumption (the smaller diameter LEAP-1B for the 737MAX is quite similar to the PD-14 in that regard, but it retains a small thermal efficiency lead from a higher pressure ratio thanks to having two more HPC stages).

    Since the shortfall is quite modest, one can probably come up with select flight profiles where the lower weight & drag of the PD-14 will edge out those drawbacks (high passenger count short range hops with relatively little time spent in cruise, basically), but overall it's slightly less efficient than its Western counterparts. Currently low oil prices might work in its favour in this regard if it can deliver on its reliability goals, but who knows what things will look like in 2-3 years time, when it will actually enter service?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snufflebug
    I don't think the PD-14 is any better than the PW, at least on the tech side it isn't, with one generation older fan/compressor blades, a simpler design overall and so on.
    Simplicity is good! Also, for a BPR of 8-9 hollow titanium blades are probably a good choice. I agree that lack of production-ready composite blades probably contributed (with coming architectures going far beyond that mark, skipping hollow Ti and going straight to composite would've been the future-proof approach), but you can rather credibly argue that composites don't quite justify the expense yet with this layout. I once more refer you to the GP7200, which despite GE involvement (who had just pioneered in-service composite fan blades on the GE90) went with thinner, sharper hollow Ti blades from P&W.

    Also, the PD-14 nacelle mirrors some LEAP-1C innovations which the PW1000G lacks (eletromechanically acuated O-duct thrust reverser).

    Quote Originally Posted by Snufflebug
    The main thing is that if it really does live up to its projected specifications, it meets the criteria for being a modern and properly (even internationally) competitive engine for civilian aircraft in this class, despite not being absolutely cutting-edge, and that's a big leap forward from pretty much everything Russia has built in the past and builds at present (the PowerJet doesn't count).
    I do think the SaM-146 counts, and the PS-90A was quite good when it originally came out (it's easy to forget that it is a late-1980s engine!) - it just never picked up enough pace to get sufficiently far down the learning curve, due to slow sales of its airframe applications.
    Last edited by Trident; 29th May 2017 at 00:25.

  10. #3520
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    Trident, all good points and I agree wholeheartedly. Mind you that in this case, I make a distinction between the Russian Federation and the RSFSR (and naturally, by extension the rest of the USSR) though. The USSR didn't lag behind in civilian airliners at all, in fact it found itself at the forefront a lot of the time in both general airliner development and their respective powerplants (Tu-114, Tu-104/124, Il-62, Il-86/96, all groundbreaking at the time in one way or another)

    Regarding the SaM-146, I'd say it's a stretch, dontcha think? It is a top notch engine for a plane the size and purpose of the SSJ for sure, and Saturn/Lyulka builds it in Russia, but they only developed the fan and compressors AFAIK, whereas the core/turbine and FADEC etc. is all French, and it's very much a one-off deal for the SSJ. No other applications even envisaged, right?

    Oh well, I am no authority on the matter. At any rate, we can agree that the MC-21 and the PD-14 are important, much more so than the largely "legacy" SSJ (though the SSJ probably broke some much-needed new ground as it finally made its way into the Western hemisphere with Interjet, CityJet, Brussels Airlines (on lease from CityJet) etc, something that will greatly help the prospects of UAC and the MS-21 in the future I think)
    Last edited by Dr.Snufflebug; 29th May 2017 at 01:04.

  11. #3521
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    I don't think the PD-14 is any better than the PW, at least on the tech side it isn't, with one generation older fan/compressor blades, a simpler design overall and so on. It may at least partially make up for that with its smaller diameter, lesser weight and lesser price, plus its (envisioned) superior serviceability (ease and cost).
    ITs not any better the GTF , LEAP,PD are of same generation but PD-14 engine its more tuned for MS-21 program , So the advantage is not a big one but even 1 % fuel efficiency matter.
    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

  12. #3522
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    It's basically a lost game to try to beat fuel efficiency of geared fans such as the PW1400 via by-pass ratio/fan diameter or thermal efficiency/turbine inlet temperature. PW is just a step ahead of the others at the moment.
    If the PD-14 family wants to beat the PW1400 they need to concentrate on the PD-18, a geared fan variant.

  13. #3523
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    Baby steps. This is Russia's re-introduction into the civil aviation next to the SSJ-100 which has less Russian input into it. PD-14 is in the right step. Pretty good I say.

  14. #3524
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    Even PD-35 is not a GTF

    http://www.rusaviainsider.com/uec-ge...35-ton-engine/
    It is, however, the 35-ton PD-35 that will become the baseline model for the new enlarge family of powerplants, says Igor Maximov, the PD family chief designer at the development and prouction plant Aviadvigatel. For that new powerplant, the core of the PD-14 will received an additional stage at the discharge of the high-pressure compressor.

    As a result, the total number of stages at the PD-35 compressor and turbine will be 9+2, and the high-pressure compressor intake diameter will be 815 mm, as compared to the PD-14’s 582 mm. The engine’s fan diameter will reportedly be 3,100 mm; the engine will be over 8 m long, and will weigh around 8 tons.

    At least two more powerplants will be developed from the PD-35: the 28-ton PD-28 and the 24-ton PD-24. The larger two of the engine family will be offered for next-generation two- and four-engine widebodies, whereas the smallest one will be mounted on short-haul widebody airliners and a heavy military transport, says Aviadvigatel’s presentation.
    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

  15. #3525
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    The problem with SaM-146 is not the lack of cutting edge (the engine is based on tech thats proven and been around for years, but it works just fine), but AFAIK they only recently stopped losing serious money on every engine sold.
    Without absurd French content prices PD-14 will hopefully be profitable-per-unit sooner.
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  16. #3526
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    Quote Originally Posted by Austin View Post
    ITs not any better the GTF , LEAP,PD are of same generation but PD-14 engine its more tuned for MS-21 program , So the advantage is not a big one but even 1 % fuel efficiency matter.
    GTF has MTU parts that makes it even more problmetic and unreliable and potentially far more expensive than initially estimated. The time for over investment and free financing is likely over.
    https://m.moodys.com/research-previe...ms--PR_348062?

  17. #3527
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    Full Flight Video

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