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Thread: Russia moving tac air troops to Syria

  1. #5641
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurius View Post
    According to IAI, it is currently producing F-16 wings, fins, and conformal fuel tanks, F-15 conformal fuel tanks, F-35 wings, and T-38 wings. Boeing has given it manufacturing work on subassemblies of several airliner types.
    it some contract work and we don't know who are the people that outsourcing it there. there could be dual citizens.



    According to my files, more than 1,500 early-model Merkavas have been built, and current production is 50-100 per year. By Western standards, that is a good production run. But why are you so obsessed with production numbers? Zeiss makes a small number of lenses in a year compared with the huge production runs by Nikon and Canon, yet Zeiss is still widely regarded as making the best.
    rebuilt to what standard? the Turkish M60T standard? current production is 50 to 100?. without production numbers how can you maintain decent force in active duty. not like half backed Turkish invasion of Syria.


    Like the wings of the F-35?
    like doors of Boeing made in India. you have serious misunderstanding between subcontract work and actual new development.

  2. #5642
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar View Post
    .
    With regards to licensed production of 300 F-16's it shows that Turkey has an aerospace industry. Not many countries can produce entire combat aircraft under licence.
    There is Su-30MKI being assembled in India and there is JF17 assembled in Pakistan. What is so special about F-16 assembly in Turkey except for assembling couple of decades ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere View Post
    . Other than that, why not include T-129, then?
    This T-129 tell enough about rest of Turkish capabilities. It has been over 10 years in this project and how many in active combat with round the clock sorties. compared to more than 300 Russian made transport and attack choppers operating in Syria-Irak theatres.

    It is not just MIG29K that got tested but Syrian MIG29s also.
    https://sputniknews.com/military/201...w-for-sputnik/
    Trial by Fire: MiG Chief Tells Sputnik That MiG-29s Proved Themselves Over Syria
    I'd like to add that the Syrian Air Force has also conducted operations using MiG-29s that were delivered to them earlier, and have also showed their high effectiveness," the director added
    Syria has an estimated 30 MiG-29A, MiG-29UB and MiG-29SM aircraft in its arsenal.

  4. #5644
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSR View Post
    it some contract work and we don't know who are the people that outsourcing it there. there could be dual citizens.
    Any F-35 work done by a company other than Lockheed Martin is by definition being done under contract. Israel was involved in F-35 development, but I do not have specific details. So there is no need to speculate about "dual citizens".



    Quote Originally Posted by JSR View Post
    rebuilt to what standard? the Turkish M60T standard? current production is 50 to 100?. without production numbers how can you maintain decent force in active duty.
    I was talking about production of new Israeli Merkavas - why are you talking about rebuilds and the Turkish M60T? That 50-100 figure I cited is for annual (yearly) Merkava Mk 4 production - which has been under way since 2004. So even at 50 a year, the current fleet would be around 600, enough for major combat operations.



    Quote Originally Posted by JSR View Post
    like doors of Boeing made in India. you have serious misunderstanding between subcontract work and actual new development.
    During decades spent working in the aerospace industry I had experience of development, production, repair, and pure research tasks, so can tell the difference between development and subcontract work. But MSphere simply asked about "airframe work" and was not specifically asking about development work.

    I do not know if the Indians were involved in the design of the doors they are making, or if Israel's share in the F-35 development process involved design work on the wing.

    By the way, doors are not as simple as some might think. If they were, a certain Soviet airliner manufacturer would not have given its US counterpart a contract 30 or more years ago to help with the development of doors for Soviet airliners. (Given that this happened half my lifetime ago, I cannot remember the names of the US and Soviet companies that were involved.)

    But enough of this - it is Valentine's day. So I am off to wine and dine my wife - that will be much more fun that arguing about planes and how they are built.
    Mercurius Cantabrigiensis

  5. #5645
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurius View Post
    According to IAI, it is currently producing F-16 wings, fins, and conformal fuel tanks, F-15 conformal fuel tanks, F-35 wings, and T-38 wings. Boeing has given it manufacturing work on subassemblies of several airliner types.
    By serious airframe work I meant development of indigenous types.. The items you have listed are hardly better than what Czech Aero or Polish WZL produce under license.

  6. #5646
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar View Post
    See http://www.microwavejournal.com/arti...r-thales-radar

    As for the ELTA EL/M-2052M AESA radar you may find this article very interesting: http://www.defensenews.com/story/def...duct/32108793/
    Interesting, thanks..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar View Post
    ASELSAN AESA with GaN- First Prototype undergoing testing- intended to be fitted on entire F-16 fleet & TF-X
    Attachment 251358

    ASELSAN FALCONEYE IRIST

    Attachment 251359

    ASELSAN MEHPOD

    Attachment 251360
    Attachment 251361

    ASELSAN ASELPOD Advance Targeting and Navigation Pod


    AYESAS AVIONICS
    See http://www.ayesas.com/en/products
    Ok thanks, but that is not quite the same as developed and in serial production, though maybe I misunderstood you.
    http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/9098/rsz11rsz3807.jpg

  8. #5648
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSR View Post
    This T-129 tell enough about rest of Turkish capabilities. It has been over 10 years in this project and how many in active combat with round the clock sorties. compared to more than 300 Russian made transport and attack choppers operating in Syria-Irak theatres.

    It is not just MIG29K that got tested but Syrian MIG29s also.
    And you consider T-129 a Turkish project?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcellogo View Post
    And you consider T-129 a Turkish project?
    It is a TAI project partnered with AgustaWestland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanem View Post
    the USAF has also tried to cancel the A-10 for decades. they're idiots
    or maybe they knew Congress would never allow that, so they didn't fund the aircraft knowing that Congress would give them more money for it
    nice bureaucratic move: Congress gets to look good for saving the A-10, and if they call the AF's bluff they get to ditch the A-10, it's a win-win for them
    That is a backwards comparison.

    It would be like the US putting the F 35 into service and then putting the A10 back into service in place of the F 35 again.

  11. #5651
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    Quote Originally Posted by TR1 View Post
    Ok thanks, but that is not quite the same as developed and in serial production, though maybe I misunderstood you.

    The ASELPOD has been exported to Pakistan when it won a tender against the Sniper and Litening: http://quwa.org/2016/06/23/aselsan-s...pods-pakistan/

  12. #5652
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcellogo View Post
    And you consider T-129 a Turkish project?
    Click image for larger version. 

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    You can see the Turkish content in the T-129 program. Turkish Aerospace Industries was Prime Contractor with AgustaWestland as Engineering Support and Integration Partner.

    The T-129 uses Turkish mission computer, avionics, radar, Flir and weapons systems.

    The T-129 also has a METEKSAN of Turkey Millimetre Wave Radar similar to the Apache Longbow. One would note that AgustaWestland AW129's did not have such a fire control radar system to transfer to Turkey.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Bayar; 15th February 2017 at 02:41.

  13. #5653
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurius View Post
    Any F-35 work done by a company other than Lockheed Martin is by definition being done under contract. Israel was involved in F-35 development, but I do not have specific details. So there is no need to speculate about "dual citizens".
    you don't have details and you still speculate that its Israelis. It is most probably some Soviet émigré educated from that system. As only Soviet and later Russia system has shown that only they can enhance other countries. Look at South Korea semiconductor industry. where do you think the word Plasma comes from?


    I was talking about production of new Israeli Merkavas - why are you talking about rebuilds and the Turkish M60T? That 50-100 figure I cited is for annual (yearly) Merkava Mk 4 production - which has been under way since 2004. So even at 50 a year, the current fleet would be around 600, enough for major combat operations.
    you don't have any evidence of 600 Merkeva 4 in active inventory.



    During decades spent working in the aerospace industry I had experience of development, production, repair, and pure research tasks, so can tell the difference between development and subcontract work. But MSphere simply asked about "airframe work" and was not specifically asking about development work.
    The point is many countries are doing sub contract and assembling kind of work. What is that Embarer producing?. this is not called advanced engineering. now I don't have word that is more advanced than advanced to differentiate less advanced countries form advanced countries that don't need external assistance in producing original work.
    I do not know if the Indians were involved in the design of the doors they are making, or if Israel's share in the F-35 development process involved design work on the wing.
    I am sure all design comes from LM design office to a very minute detail with weight and tolerance of each component. you claim to be understanding engineering and don't understand basics of computerized modeling.
    By the way, doors are not as simple as some might think. If they were, a certain Soviet airliner manufacturer would not have given its US counterpart a contract 30 or more years ago to help with the development of doors for Soviet airliners. (Given that this happened half my lifetime ago, I cannot remember the names of the US and Soviet companies that were involved.)
    I did not say it simple. Soviet days and that method of development is gone. Soviet scientist are already flushed out to other places. Russia has now more younger brains and they seem to be producing more effective systems.
    But enough of this - it is Valentine's day. So I am off to wine and dine my wife - that will be much more fun that arguing about planes and how they are built.
    I don't think its enough.

  14. #5654
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere View Post
    By serious airframe work I meant development of indigenous types
    The question you asked was about "meaningful airframe work", and that is the question I answered.



    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere View Post
    The items you have listed are hardly better than what Czech Aero or Polish WZL produce under license.
    So Czech Aero and Polish WZL are manufacturing low-observable airframe structure?



    Quote Originally Posted by JSR View Post
    you don't have details and you still speculate that its Israelis.
    On its website IAI lists the F-35 wing among its current programs.



    Quote Originally Posted by JSR View Post
    As only Soviet and later Russia system has shown that only they can enhance other countries.
    If you are talking about weapon system upgrades, I suggest that you go to a good technical library and read latest editions of "Jane's Aircraft Upgrades" and "Land Warfare Platforms: System Upgrades". These sources will show the number of nations who have the skills to perform major weapon-platform upgrades.



    Quote Originally Posted by JSR View Post
    where do you think the word Plasma comes from?
    The word plasma was first used by I Langmuir in his 1928 paper "Oscillations in Ionized Gases".



    Quote Originally Posted by JSR View Post
    you don't have any evidence of 600 Merkeva 4 in active inventory.
    You have never visited my office, so cannot claim to know what data is in my files, let alone the data in the technical libraries that I have access to.



    Quote Originally Posted by JSR View Post
    What is that Embarer producing?
    Don't you mean Embraer? Their product range includes the rather nice Embraer 190 airliner I used for a business trip last year. I hope that you are not going to claim that it was designed and built by Soviet émigrés.



    Quote Originally Posted by JSR View Post
    you claim to be understanding engineering and don't understand basics of computerized modeling.
    While not claiming to be an expert on the topic, I recently helped an international defence consultancy with a computer modelling problem that they had. So I must have some useful knowledge of the subject.

    This thread is becoming boring. I have better things to do with my time.
    Mercurius Cantabrigiensis

  15. #5655
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurius View Post
    If you are talking about weapon system upgrades, I suggest that you go to a good technical library and read latest editions of "Jane's Aircraft Upgrades" and "Land Warfare Platforms: System Upgrades". These sources will show the number of nations who have the skills to perform major weapon-platform upgrades.
    those skills are now on paper that cannot put into practice. How many modern tanks Great Britain can produce in year? and how many it can actually field in operations.



    The word plasma was first used by I Langmuir in his 1928 paper "Oscillations in Ionized Gases".
    I mean why it become famous like household name from where the practical technology came. very small percentage of people read scientific papers.



    You have never visited my office, so cannot claim to know what data is in my files, let alone the data in the technical libraries that I have access to.
    your data has no relationship with real world. it is like tanks in storage or aircrafts with G limit that cant be upgrade with new engine.



    Don't you mean Embraer? Their product range includes the rather nice Embraer 190 airliner I used for a business trip last year. I hope that you are not going to claim that it was designed and built by Soviet émigrés.
    Yup it has Russian technology to refine it to current standards. you fail to realize that education systems of a lot of countries have fallen apart that's why they need external help to improve there existing products.

    http://aviationweek.com/awin/embraer...-russias-tsagi
    Embraer Teams With Russia's TsAGI
    Last June, Embraer rented one of TsAGI's 60 wind tunnels to help fine-tune the ERJ-170/190 regional jet design

    http://www.embraer.com/en-US/Imprens...ONAUTICAS.aspx

    11/08/2000
    In: Press Releases
    EMBRAER SIGNS AGREEMENT WITH RUSSIA’S PREMIER AERODYNAMICS RESEARCH CENTER

    TsAGI possesses over 80 years experience in developing
    leading-edge aviation technology
    http://www.rusbiznews.com/news/n2739.html
    Embraer, a Brazilian aircraft manufacturer, announced VSMPO-AVISMA the Supplier of 2016.



    While not claiming to be an expert on the topic, I recently helped an international defence consultancy with a computer modelling problem that they had. So I must have some useful knowledge of the subject.

    This thread is becoming boring. I have better things to do with my time.
    you made inaccurate statements about Russian systems before and you got corrected several times on that.

  16. #5656
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    Congratulations! One of your responses (the one about plasma) actually had a direct relationship with the point you were responding to. That does not happen very often. When I steered you (for example) to information on weapon-platform upgrades, you responded by changing the subject and asking about UK tank production and inventory. The experience is a bit like communicating with a chatbot, and I see no point in continuing these exchanges.

    By the way, the fact that the aerospace industry in one country will sometimes use the specialist test facilities in another country will not be news to any experienced aerospace engineer. It is not uncommon – two programmes that I worked on did this. This indicated nothing about the relative skills of their aerospace industry and ours. It was simply that their facility allowed specific test conditions that were not possible at our equivalent national facilities.
    Mercurius Cantabrigiensis

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    Interesting, Su-35 back from Syria: 10 ground strikes per bomb, and 1 aerial victory....

    http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/9098/rsz11rsz3807.jpg

  18. #5658
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    Quote Originally Posted by TR1 View Post
    Interesting, Su-35 back from Syria: 10 ground strikes per bomb, and 1 aerial victory....

    Drone shot down maybe? Though that star seen to have weathered a lot more then the ground strike markings.
    Last edited by Flyboy77; 16th February 2017 at 19:34.

  19. #5659
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    So who's drone?
    US. Turkey, Israel. Just pick one.
    Thanks

  20. #5660
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    Hmmm, these ones have it too...not sure it signifies an A2A victory in this case (unless we are talking makeshift rebel drones?)

    Did not realize how many ground missions the Su-35s have flown though.
    http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/9098/rsz11rsz3807.jpg

  21. #5661
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurius View Post
    Congratulations! One of your responses (the one about plasma) actually had a direct relationship with the point you were responding to. That does not happen very often. When I steered you (for example) to information on weapon-platform upgrades, you responded by changing the subject and asking about UK tank production and inventory. The experience is a bit like communicating with a chatbot, and I see no point in continuing these exchanges.
    your slightly better understanding but you still not getting the whole point regarding plasma. I did not change subject UK is one of the example of failed scientific and industrial policy. it simply cant make advance tanks in quantity despite has one of longest history of tank making. It happened to Sweden also where practically every firm is sold out. as things get more complex it need far higher level knowledge at much higher skilled labor quantity which Sweden education system simply cant produce that's why more and more of Swedish products will have foreign ownership or external parts.
    By the way, the fact that the aerospace industry in one country will sometimes use the specialist test facilities in another country will not be news to any experienced aerospace engineer. It is not uncommon – two programmes that I worked on did this. This indicated nothing about the relative skills of their aerospace industry and ours. It was simply that their facility allowed specific test conditions that were not possible at our equivalent national facilities.
    Brazil is not a kid in regional airlines business. they have built them in thousands for decades now but as things get more complex and advance they started need external help more and more.
    do you see advance aerodynamics and materials in this picture?



  22. #5662
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSR View Post
    There is Su-30MKI being assembled in India and there is JF17 assembled in Pakistan. What is so special about F-16 assembly in Turkey except for assembling couple of decades ago.
    There is a difference between assembling aircraft provided in kits and licence production of entire aircraft and engines. Turkey now produces nearly every single part used in the F-16 in Turkey and by through various Turkish suppliers. This includes but is not limited to an indigenous mission computer. An Aselsan AESA radar is also nearing completion for the Tuaf F-16 fleet and will compete in the market for a Version V upgrade equivalent. One would note Turkish Aerospace Industries has upgraded Egyptian, Jordanian and Pakistani F-16 feets in the past. The US, Turkey (TAI & TEI) and Japan (Mitsubishi) are the only countries to licence produce F-16s. Even Israel does not licence produce them but rather Israeli is allowed to install its sub-systems in F-16's. Turkey on the other hand has also acted as an agent for Lockheed Martin in the Middle East and produced F-16's for third-parties such as the Egyptian Air Force.

  23. #5663
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSR View Post
    Pay attention it is a lot more than imported engines/transmission. I want to see you understand what I am writing. The word collaboration, alliances, free flow of skilled labor and financials etc. The weakness in engineering led to these countries to produce every thing in limited quantity any thing that is called advanced heavy engineering. they even run out of bombs after brief skirmishes.




    how many tanks Israel or Turkey can produce per year and how many existing they can upgrade per year taken into current battles in the world and how many they can support across the world in active roles. New Russian tanks are every where from Algeria to Turkeminstan to India.

    When country has advance capability they can upgrade the older stuff to be closer in effectiveness to the newer ones.





    they are mere assembler of yesterday technology. That's why you never see Israeli or Turks adding there own composites to F-16 or enhancing its engine or increasing its payload. I have doubt even on effectiveness of radar enhancement. it takes them ages to build few modern tanks. and I am very generous in using the word modern with imported tech.
    MIG can do it. look at MIG29SMT.

    yup no clue.
    The Turks are one of the leaders when it comes to aerospace advance composites. So much so that TAI recently upgraded its Advanced Composites Manufacturing plant to supply centre fuselages for the F-35. Turkey produces many aircraft from Advance composites including its Anka UCAV's, Bayraktar TB-2, Vestel Karayel, T-628 Utility Helicopter, Hurkus-C etc. See http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...y-for-jsf.html

  24. #5664
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar View Post
    The Turks are one of the leaders when it comes to aerospace advance composites. So much so that TAI recently upgraded its Advanced Composites Manufacturing plant to supply centre fuselages for the F-35. Turkey produces many aircraft from Advance composites including its Anka UCAV's, Bayraktar TB-2, Vestel Karayel, T-628 Utility Helicopter, Hurkus-C etc. See http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...y-for-jsf.html
    What are you talking about? That F-35 deal is simply part of F-35 program commitment from US side. Basically, it is just an offset agreement. Let's do NOT go over our heads. Turkey simply does not possess skills, knowledge, or experience to succeed in advanced aircraft programs without significant foreign input. Every single significant product you listed in these posts have their roots from an outside partner. They are simply assemble work / license production. Only potential success with local sources may be with drones in coming years.


    Also what is that with Turkey can produce almost everything to build an F-16? Please...

    Even locally designed trainer aircraft delayed by years (even though it was using all the off-the-shelf components possible) and TuAF had to buy KT-1 from Korea.

    And finally, this is off-topic but good fun.

  25. #5665
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyboy77 View Post
    Drone shot down maybe? Though that star seen to have weathered a lot more then the ground strike markings.
    I don't think the star is weathered, but it is painted white. I wonder, what the white star is marking. Maybe something associated with US.

  26. #5666
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    Quote Originally Posted by medo View Post
    I don't think the star is weathered, but it is painted white. I wonder, what the white star is marking. Maybe something associated with US.
    Probably markings to signify intercepts of Coalition aircraft over Syria.

    Tu-95s launched cruise missiles against ISIS yesterday.

    Russian strategic bombers hit ISIS in Raqqa in coordination with Pentagon via ‘deconfliction line’

    Russian Tu-95 bombers have struck Islamic State (IS, former ISIS/ISIL) targets in Syria's Raqqa region using X-101 cruise missiles, the Russian Defense Ministry said in a statement, adding that it informed the US about the operation.

    “On February 17, 2017, strategic missile carrying Tu-95 bombers made an operational flight from the territory of the Russian Federation over the territories of Iran and Iraq and conducted an air strike against Islamic State terrorists’ objectives in the Raqqa region using X-101 cruise missiles,” the ministry’s statement says.
    https://www.rt.com/news/377758-russi...rs-isis-raqqa/
    Last edited by TEEJ; 18th February 2017 at 17:09.

  27. #5667
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    Quote Originally Posted by foxmulder_ms View Post
    What are you talking about? That F-35 deal is simply part of F-35 program commitment from US side. Basically, it is just an offset agreement. Let's do NOT go over our heads. Turkey simply does not possess skills, knowledge, or experience to succeed in advanced aircraft programs without significant foreign input. Every single significant product you listed in these posts have their roots from an outside partner. They are simply assemble work / license production. Only potential success with local sources may be with drones in coming years.


    Also what is that with Turkey can produce almost everything to build an F-16? Please...

    Even locally designed trainer aircraft delayed by years (even though it was using all the off-the-shelf components possible) and TuAF had to buy KT-1 from Korea.

    And finally, this is off-topic but good fun.
    The KT-1 was a stop-gap measure.

    As for Turkey not producing F-16's I direct your attention to the following:

    https://www.tai.com.tr/en/department/aircraft-group
    https://www.tei.com.tr

    The Turks not only produce every critical component in the TuAF F-16's they also have many indigenous sub-systems.

    The most ambitious is the Aselsan AESA
    Click image for larger version. 

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  28. #5668
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar View Post
    There is a difference between assembling aircraft provided in kits and licence production of entire aircraft and engines. Turkey now produces nearly every single part used in the F-16 in Turkey and by through various Turkish suppliers. This includes but is not limited to an indigenous mission computer. An Aselsan AESA radar is also nearing completion for the Tuaf F-16 fleet and will compete in the market for a Version V upgrade equivalent. One would note Turkish Aerospace Industries has upgraded Egyptian, Jordanian and Pakistani F-16 feets in the past. The US, Turkey (TAI & TEI) and Japan (Mitsubishi) are the only countries to licence produce F-16s. Even Israel does not licence produce them but rather Israeli is allowed to install its sub-systems in F-16's. Turkey on the other hand has also acted as an agent for Lockheed Martin in the Middle East and produced F-16's for third-parties such as the Egyptian Air Force.
    you are getting ahead. if its license production why US government involved in it for such huge cost for essentially 1990s era aircraft.

    http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...for-29b-02671/
    Turkey Orders 30 F-16C Block 50s etc. for $2.9B
    you only upgrade stuff with US license stuff. you haven't developed anything. There is no AESA or enhanced thrust Turkish F-16 for any of its customers.

  29. #5669
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar View Post
    The Turks are one of the leaders when it comes to aerospace advance composites. So much so that TAI recently upgraded its Advanced Composites Manufacturing plant to supply centre fuselages for the F-35. Turkey produces many aircraft from Advance composites including its Anka UCAV's, Bayraktar TB-2, Vestel Karayel, T-628 Utility Helicopter, Hurkus-C etc. See http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...y-for-jsf.html
    only 72000sq feet plant under Grumman. what they produced for past 10 years.
    those are bigger than your TAI.
    http://aerocomposit.ru/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar View Post
    The KT-1 was a stop-gap measure.

    As for Turkey not producing F-16's I direct your attention to the following:

    https://www.tai.com.tr/en/department/aircraft-group
    https://www.tei.com.tr

    The Turks not only produce every critical component in the TuAF F-16's they also have many indigenous sub-systems.

    The most ambitious is the Aselsan AESA
    Click image for larger version. 

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    where is Turkey Air to Air missiles?. India and Pakistan more kinds of AAMs than Turkey.
    your simply not even understanding that Turkey industrialist and procurement policy are big flop despite being in Nato for 50 or more years. both India and Pakistan has more and modern tanks than you.

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