Key.Aero Network
Register Free

Page 218 of 220 FirstFirst ... 118168208214215216217218219220 LastLast
Results 6,511 to 6,540 of 6592

Thread: Russia moving tac air troops to Syria

  1. #6511
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    213
    meanwhile under turkey`s watch Idlib province has been turned into a HTS stronghold.i am assumming most people on this forum know who these guys are. Swerve take note-there is virtually no "moderates" left to talk about except those near the Jordan border.

  2. #6512
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    400
    Any attack on Qatar by the GCC countries would automatically bring Iran into the picture and force Turkey to ally with Iran.

    Qatar and Iran share the South Pars / North Dome Gas-Condensate field which everyone is after. Both Iran and Qatar want to export such gas to Europe via Turkey. Iran would not allow South Pars to fall into GCC hands.

    If and when Qatar is attacked Turkey will have access to Iranian bases. Turkey has stationed F-16's in Iran before when Turkey obtained consent from Tehran to attack PEJAK/PKK.

    As for how Turkey will deploy to Qatar-

    Many are discounting Turkish Airlines & Qatar Airlines Aircraft for troop deployment via Iranian Airspace.

    As for heavy equipment many on this forum are discounting the role that the Turkish Navy will play.

    Some Turkish Naval Assets are already in the Persian Gulf: MILGEM Class Corvettes and G-class frigates. Both have Area Air Defence capabilities.

    2 x Bayrakatar Class LST's will also be on their way soon. These vessels can carry many MBT's, APC's and other heavy equipment. TCG Inskendurun can also be deployed.

    Naval assets can be used for transporting heavy equipment directly from Turkey to Qatar

    OR

    Turkey can create a sea bridge between Iran & Qatar. Turkey's 3rd Army would move to a Port in Iran and transfer the equipment back and fourth to Qatar from Iranian ports.

    Turkey has been conducting simulations of a beach landing similar to Qatar for sometime now.




    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	a1600bengazi_8_lr.jpg 
Views:	141 
Size:	93.1 KB 
ID:	254282

    A great video on the TCG Bayraktar class LST's of the Turkish Navy



    And as launched

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	CyXvUsrXcAAkXLu.jpg 
Views:	47 
Size:	164.4 KB 
ID:	254283
    Last edited by Bayar; 26th June 2017 at 07:29.

  3. #6513
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    400
    And as I suspected Turkey is using 121 civilian cargo aircraft to act as an air bridge between Qatar & Turkey via Iranian airspace.


    "Turkey ‘conducted world’s biggest airlift operation in two weeks’ during Gulf rift, economy minister says

    DAILY SABAH, ISTANBUL, Published 18 hours ago

    Turkey has sent a total of 121 cargo planes to Qatar since an economic blockade against the Gulf country was imposed by its neighbors, making it the world's biggest airlift operation, Turkish Economy Minister Nihat Zeybekçi said Sunday.

    "We have conducted the world's biggest airlift operation in two weeks. As of 12 AM last night 121 planes were sent [to Qatar], then a ship was followed by seven trucks. After that, one more ship sailed off while flights continue," Zeybekçi said.

    Zeybekçi went on to say that conflicts have changed their nature in the modern period.

    "Wars have gone to other dimensions. Perhaps, the most honorable ones are the economic wars. So we absolutely have to win the economic war," the Turkish economy minister said.

    Zeybekçi also noted that Turkey's cultural geography, which spreads across Balkans, Caucasus, North Africa, and Iraq and Syria, has made the country the most generous country in regards to humanitarian support.

    "I wish Muslim communities had no need for donations and there were not so many people in need in countries where the population is under oppression," he said, adding that strong and sound Turkish economy allows the country to provide humanitarian aid.

    Zeybekci expressed confidence that "these problems among brothers" would soon be sorted out through a dialogue.

    Starting from June 5, Bahrain, Comoros, Egypt, Maldives, Mauritania, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Yemen's internationally backed government and one of Libya's three governments have cut off diplomatic ties with Qatar over accusations that the Gulf nation funds militant groups – charges Doha calls baseless.

    Several other Muslim nations also downgraded their diplomatic ties with Qatar.

    Since the beginning of the economic blockade of Qatar, Turkey has been sending tons of fruit, vegetables and other foodstuffs to the Gulf state.

    https://www.dailysabah.com/turkey/20...-minister-says
    Last edited by Bayar; 26th June 2017 at 10:37.

  4. #6514
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    400
    US now urges parties to talk and de-escalate situation: http://abcnews.go.com/International/...qatar-48263019

    Someone just didnt factor in Iran helping Turkey against GCC it seems. Mr. Trump is more incompetent than Obama. What happened to Henry Kissinger type US Statesmen.
    Last edited by Bayar; 26th June 2017 at 07:23.

  5. #6515
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    400
    PeeD

    @Bayar

    Your link is good and it's a good to have capability to manufacture spools blinks of the cold end. Does that mean that they produce them for the F100 or does this mean that they produce blisks/spools for a foreign engine manufacturer, or does this mean they have a facility that has demonstrated this capability? I doubt any F100 versions use blisks so, no, this has nothing to do with Turkey producing F100 or any engines. Maybe PW has given them the licence to produce spools for the F100? Possible but this is a rather easy bit in the huge puzzle of a turbofan engine of F100 class.

    Look, Turkey is certainly a industrialized country and they have achieved quite much but why do you think they could produce a F100? USA, UK, Russia and France are the only countries in the world who could produce it and except for Russia and some extend France, the others have outsourced component production to aboard (some also to Turkey).
    You want something that is one of the hardest task in technology in general and expect Turkey to have catch up to these leading countries with at least 50 years each experience in that field? You demand miracles, be happy if Turkey "produces" 20% of the F100 and 5% of the critical parts (and this is nothing to be ashamed of).

    Your problem are such false impressions. In general the Turkish defense industry which is existing in your mind is what is to happen in 2019, 2021. This is no offense, try to be more critical to get a clearer picture.
    Please see below regarding Turkish license production of F110 engines.

    If you think you guys know better than GE Aviation itself and TUSAS Engine Industries then I am wasting my time here. But this is not me saying this but GE Aviation and TUSAS Engine Industries. I know it may be hard for you guys to fathom but Turkey has had this technology since the 1980's but no one has given it close attention. It is for this reason that I stated many times on this site that the TF-X will fly along with many other aerial platforms.

    GE Aviation's long-standing relationship with TEI began in 1985 with the establishment of a facility for production of F110 engines that power F-16 aircraft for the Turkish Air Force.

    See https://www.geaviation.com/press-rel...other-25-years
    Assembly and testing of 271 engines under PO I and PO II Programs and 42 engines under PO IV Program were completed for the F100 engines available in the inventory of Turkish Armed Force.

    Assembly and testing of 10 EA F110 engines available in the inventory of Oman Air Force were also completed.

    See http://tei.com.tr/detay/f110-engine
    In addition to assembly at GE's facilities, F110 engines are currently being assembled by Tusas Engine Industries in Turkey). Each month, more than 30,000 hours are flown by F110 - powered fighters.

    See http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...stems/f110.htm
    The engine is also license-built by Turkish Aerospace Industries.

    See "General Electric F110", Frederic P. Miller, Agnes F. Vandome, McBrewster John, VDM Publishing, 5 Dec. 2010 - Technology & Engineering, Page 64
    Electronic copy accessible at https://books.google.com.au/books/ab...AJ&redir_esc=y
    TEI produced and delivered its first engine and engine parts in 1987, and since then, it has transferred manufacturing, assembly and testing technology of aircraft engine parts and modules to our country and also proved its success in global markets with its reliable, high quality production that meets international standards. See http://tei.com.tr/detay/general-information
    Last edited by Bayar; 26th June 2017 at 07:05.

  6. #6516
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    2,384
    Surreal, truly surreal argument. This is akin to a Chinese national claiming China has access to Apple proprietary technology because the IPhone is assembled there.

  7. #6517
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    3,438
    Quote Originally Posted by FBW View Post
    Surreal, truly surreal argument. This is akin to a Chinese national claiming China has access to Apple proprietary technology because the IPhone is assembled there.
    X2

  8. #6518
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    400
    I'll provide more sources to clarify all your assumptions:

    Turkey's F-16 program goes far beyond merely assembling components produced in the United States. U.S. firms are providing Turkey with technology, training, and financing to establish a foothold in the major aspects of military aerospace production. Towards that end, General Electric helped create Tusas Engine Industries, a Turkish-American joint stock company which manufactures engine parts and assembles the F110-GE-100 engine for the TAI F-16 production line. Lockheed Martin owns a 49% share in MIKES, a Turkish firm that produces the ALQ-178-V5 radar and electronic countermeasures systems used on the F-16. And Litton is collaborating with the Turkish firm Aselsan to build F-16 components.

    See https://fas.org/asmp/library/reports/turkeyrep.htm
    Producing an engine under license (you intentionally claim "assembly" to support your argument despite me providing ample evidence including the original companies saying "production") means you will not give 2 F*cks during a wartime situation to re-activate those lines.

    I know for a fact that Turkey insisted on Licensed production of the engines back in the 1980's or Turkey would not purchase 200+ F-16's.

    Go and re-read what GE Aviation says at: https://www.geaviation.com/press-rel...other-25-years
    Last edited by Bayar; 26th June 2017 at 11:23.

  9. #6519
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    4,362
    Your own link mentions that they "assemble" the F100, as well as manufacturing "some engine parts". I doubt that those engine parts are the most sensitive or hard to develop/build.

    Good luck sourcing all the other parts without US support, especially in a short timeframe.

    Nic

  10. #6520
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    2,384
    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar View Post
    I'll provide more sources to clarify all your assumptions:



    Producing an engine under license (you intentionally claim "assembly" to support your argument despite me providing ample evidence including the original companies saying "production") means you will not give 2 F*cks during a wartime situation to re-activate those lines.
    rl]
    GE cannot share certain technologies such as:
    The manufacture of blisks, due to USG restrictions.
    Last edited by FBW; 26th June 2017 at 11:39.

  11. #6521
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    400
    Right from GE Aviation itself:

    GE and TAI Extend Tusas Engine Industries, Inc. Joint Venture for Another 25 Years
    http://www.geaviation.com/press-rele...other-25-years
    January 29, 2010

    ANKARA, Turkey -- GE Aviation has renewed the Tusas Engine Industries, Inc. (TEI) joint venture with Turkish Aerospace Industries, Inc. (TAI) for another 25 years. Under this agreement, TEI will continue to provide critical parts for commercial, military and marine engines through 2035, with TAI retaining a majority ownership in the joint venture.

    "We are pleased to extend this valued relationship," said Jean Lydon-Rodgers, Vice President and General Manager of GE Aviation Military Systems. "Our involvement with TEI goes far beyond parts. Development of the Turkiye Technology Center in Istanbul, expansion into the Maintenance Repair and Overhaul arena, plus design and manufacturing of some of our most critical parts, underscores the growing scope of value TEI provides."

    GE Aviation's long-standing relationship with TEI began in 1985 with the establishment of a facility for production of F110 engines that power F-16 aircraft for the Turkish Air Force. TEI now produces more than 560 different engine parts.

    Recently, TEI launched parts manufacturing efforts for the GEnx, which powers both the Boeing 747-8 and Boeing 787 Dreamliner. More than 1,000 GEnx engines are on order. TEI has also been selected to provide parts for the GE Rolls-Royce Fighter Engine Team's F136 engine for the Joint Strike Fighter program, and is the only GE supplier to produce "blisk spools," a combination of blades and disks cast into a single forging for significant weight and durability advantages. TEI is also a recipient of GE Aviation's prestigious Brian H. Rowe Research & Development award for work on the J85 Ejector System.

    Since its entry into the Turkish market in 1948 as the first foreign industrial investor, GE has steadily continued its growth through investments in technology and services. Today, GE is a leading player in finance, energy, consumer & industrial products, water technologies, media and engineering fields. GE employs 500 people in Turkey, and more than 18,000 employees through its joint ventures. GE Aviation's engines power the majority of fighters, cargo aircraft, helicopters and ships in the Turkish Armed Forces inventory, including F-16s, Black Hawks and Frigates. GE Aviation and CFM International also power more than 400 civil aircraft in Turkey.

    GE Aviation, an operating unit of GE (NYSE: GE), is a world-leading provider of jet engines, components and integrated systems for commercial and military aircraft. GE Aviation has a global service network to support these offerings.
    Next.
    Last edited by Bayar; 26th June 2017 at 11:42.

  12. #6522
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    2,384
    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar View Post
    Right from GE Aviation itself:



    Next.
    Your missing the difference between production and the propriety technology used. Believe what you want. I'll be looking forward to that TAI turbofan using GE manufacturing techniques.....right around never.

  13. #6523
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    400
    And your missing the point between Technology Transfer as a condition precedent for an arms sale and components manufacturing and assembly.

    I am telling you Turkey does not make any off-the-shelf purchases of arms anymore unless there is significant ToT.

    I'll give you another example:

    More recently the US Senate approved Sikorsky to transfer significant IP to Turkish Aerospace Industries to licence produce 109 Sikorsky S70i Blackhawks as the TAI T70 in Turkey.

    T70 - UTILITY HELICOPTER PROGRAM
    https://www.tai.com.tr/en/project/tu...ity-helicopter

    Turkish Undersecretariat for Defence Industries (SSM) newly signed related agreements on 21st February 2014 with TAI as Prime Contractor, Sikorsky Aircraft Corp. as Major Subcontractor and other key Turkish aerospace contractors that license Turkey's aerospace industry to manufacture 109 T70 helicopters (Turkish variants of Sikorsky's S-70i™ International Black Hawk helicopter) for operation by the Turkish Governmental Bodies.

    In turn, the Turkish aerospace industry will assemble 109 T70 helicopters for Sikorsky. The agreements would authorize the transfer of certain manufacturing technology to Turkish industry and provide for the potential to produce up to a total of 600 total aircraft, including both T70 units for Turkish indigenous use and S-70i™ aircraft for export over the next 30 years. Under the program, TAI is the prime contractor for T70 licensed production and assembly in Turkey for multi-mission use by the Turkish government.
    From the technology gained from the T70 licence production program Turkish Aerospace Industries developed the TAI T-625 Utility Helicopter.

    The same occurred with Agusta-Westland AW149 Attack Helicopter. Turkey purchased the IP and developed it further to create the T-129 ATAK.

    Turkey sought the same in respect of the PAC-3 which Washington refused. Then Turkey opted for the ASTER 30-SAMP/T with ToT but this too was refused. Then China and Russia seized the moment and offered Turkey full technology transfer. Turkey opted for the S-400. This is Turkey's modus operandi now. ToT.
    Last edited by Bayar; 26th June 2017 at 12:01.

  14. #6524
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,097
    3 things you need to know

    (1) TUSAS Engine Industries has been producing the Pratt & Whitney F100 engine under licence since the 1980's;
    (2) Turkey has indigenous turbo-fan engine technology but it is not yet fuel-efficient for competitive commercial use (c.f. with military use). The TJ-90 and the Kale 3500
    (3) Turkey has several partnerships which will make Turkey's turbo-fan engine technology fuel-efficient: one with Rolls Royce (UK), Ivchenko-Progress (Ukraine) and ofcourse Russia. Kale's partnership with Rolls-Royce has matured and the Joint-Venture is tendering for the TF-X engine. See http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art..._x-engine.html


    That is the assembly of engines not the construction of engines.
    If Turkey annoys any of the suppliers of engines, they can and would be cut off.

  15. #6525
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    400
    Quote Originally Posted by RpR View Post
    3 things you need to know

    (1) TUSAS Engine Industries has been producing the Pratt & Whitney F100 engine under licence since the 1980's;
    (2) Turkey has indigenous turbo-fan engine technology but it is not yet fuel-efficient for competitive commercial use (c.f. with military use). The TJ-90 and the Kale 3500
    (3) Turkey has several partnerships which will make Turkey's turbo-fan engine technology fuel-efficient: one with Rolls Royce (UK), Ivchenko-Progress (Ukraine) and ofcourse Russia. Kale's partnership with Rolls-Royce has matured and the Joint-Venture is tendering for the TF-X engine. See http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art..._x-engine.html


    That is the assembly of engines not the construction of engines.
    If Turkey annoys any of the suppliers of engines, they can and would be cut off.
    Read the above sources in particular what GE Aviation says about its partnership with TEI.

    Turkey has a production facility for F110 engines as part of the F-16 deal approved by US Congress back in 1980's

  16. #6526
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    939
    TBH, This "whether Turkey produces F-110 or not" discussion is a moot thing..

    Does Turkey produce whole F-110 engine? No, it doesn't. Trying to twist it with "theories" or what might happen does not change the fact not all parts of an F-110 engine is produced in Turkey, but some are still imported as kits.

    This in itself is completely different question than "CAN Turkey produce an entire F-110 domestically if it wanted?"

    Answer is yes, quite probably... The sole purpose and founding mission of TEI is to power Turkish F-16s domestically if WW3 erupted. Because it was felt logistics of continuously transferring new/refurbished engines from US and sending damaged/used up engines back to US would be impossible and TuAF would be grounded.

    TEI was founded and started component manufacturing of F-110s two years earlier than the first F-16 was even delivered (let alone got operational). By the time first F-16 was operational with TuAF, TEI was capable of overhauling the F-110 engines COMPLETELY independent from outside support. Overhauling do include major components like turbines and compressors, and that was late 1980s...

    Today I know even FADEC is produced domestically for F-110 (by Savronik), and I don't imagine any component that would be beyond production capability of Eskişehir Aviation Cluster in general.

    Still, Turkey doesn't produce an F-110 from scratch. That is not because its beyond Turkey's abilities but because there is neither the need nor the demand from military. TuAF F-16s are aging and airframe fatigue (both due to real combat missions with heavy payloads at the east and almost daily mock dogfights with Greeks at the west) and remaining airframe life time is much more of a concern than producing fully domestic parts for the F-110 engines which are laying around in abundance. Excluding combat damage, and considering TEI can overhaul F-110s since the beginning, F-110 engines Turkey has will likely to outlive the F-16s they are powering.

    Its like questioning whether Turkey can produce a new aircooled diesel engine for its M-60A3s.. Yes it can, it certainly has the ability, but it will never do that. It will use whatever tanks with whatever engines and move on to Altay.. Same goes for aircraft industry, and there is nothing wrong with that..

  17. #6527
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    870
    @Bayar

    Ukraine never had indigenous jet engines. Its all Russian tech. Ukr isn't even really a country.

  18. #6528
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    9,146
    Ivchenko-Progress is not real in your universe apparently.
    http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/9098/rsz11rsz3807.jpg

  19. #6529
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    400
    I think it is also prudent for me to mention that Turkey also produces single crustal superalloys for Turbofan engines as well.

    Tubitak-MAM Materials Institute conducts research and development in this area which it then transfers to Turkish companies.

    See http://me.mam.tubitak.gov.tr/en/labo...ing-laboratory

    @Andraxxus whilst what you say may be correct with regards to production of the F110 for the Peace Onyx I, Peace Onyx II, Peace Onyx III programs this definitely was not the case for Peace Onyx IV. They were total licence builds.

    But I do agree that it is a moot point because Turkey does indeed have turbo-fan technology. Development of the TEI TJ-90 turbojet engine proves this in any event. Does it have the technology? Yes, Is such technology at the level of its Western counterparts? No
    Last edited by Bayar; 27th June 2017 at 01:49.

  20. #6530
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    4,362
    How does building a turbojet mean that you have turbofan technology?

  21. #6531
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    400
    Both engines use a turbine for power. In a turbine engine, air is compressed and then fuel is ignited in this compressed air. The energy produced by the ignition turns the turbine. The turbine is then able to drive both the compressor at the front of the engine and also some useful load. It also produces thrust.

    1st gen. jet engines were turbojets: a simple turbine engine that produces all of its thrust from the exhaust from the turbine section. As all of the air is passing through the whole turbine, all of it must burn fuel = inefficient. In turbofan engines the turbine primarily drives a fan at the front of the engine.

    Similar technology.

    Hence why I said Turkey is looking for fuel efficiency and thus why it is partnering with Rolls-Royce & others. That is, Turkey is not starting from scratch but obtaining consultancy from established turbo-fan engine producers to develop a high-bypass new generation turbo-fan engine for the TF-X.

  22. #6532
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    400
    Russia and Turkey are planning a massive assault on Idlib province. Both Turkish and Russian Armed Forces have been mobilizing near Idlib last night.

    "Turkey and Russia to deploy in Syria's Idlib: Erdogan spokesman": https://www.reuters.com/article/us-m...-idUSKBN19D1WI

    See also https://www.militarytimes.com/articl...rds-raqqa-isis

    Reports on livemap that the US is moving soldiers to Manbij to counter Russian and Turkish moves. It looks like there is a very high risk of two NATO 'allies' engaging each other in Syria.

  23. #6533
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    5,752
    Syria preparing "another" chemical attack, claims Washington
    http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/26/politi...ing/index.html

    Nikki Haley‏Verified account @nikkihaley 6h6 hours ago

    Any further attacks done to the people of Syria will be blamed on Assad, but also on Russia & Iran who support him killing his own people
    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

  24. #6534
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    400
    Quote Originally Posted by Austin View Post
    Syria preparing "another" chemical attack, claims Washington
    http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/26/politi...ing/index.html

    Nikki Haley‏Verified account @nikkihaley 6h6 hours ago

    Any further attacks done to the people of Syria will be blamed on Assad, but also on Russia & Iran who support him killing his own people
    US clandestine services preparing a chemical attack against innocent civilians in Syria to cite as a reason for invasion, partitioning and creation of an independent marxist leninist Kurdish State???

  25. #6535
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    400
    And Turkey drops the "bombshell"....

    Turkey announces that it is reviewing its membership in the North Atlantic Treaty Organization in response to "one of its NATO "allies" arming a terrorist group that is waging a war in Turkey". The Turkish President stated: “Those so-called friends don’t see any issue walking along with terror organisations who want to divide Turkey,”: See http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...fighting-isil/

    What implications if any would Turkey's exit from NATO have on Europe in light of the fact that Turkey controls the Bosporus Strait (entry and exit into the Black Sea) and soon the Istanbul Canal (which is solely under Turkish Sovereignty- i.e. Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits is a 1936 does not apply)???
    Last edited by Bayar; 27th June 2017 at 12:17.

  26. #6536
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    4,362
    If only France would do the same.

  27. #6537
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    400
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicolas10 View Post
    If only France would do the same.
    I personally think Germany is the instigator of all this. Fuher Merkel wants to create a European Defence Force. The question is- does the UK and Turkey join this umbrella? Could this be what the EU has offered Turkey and the UK- a privileged partnership?

  28. #6538
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    1,107
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikolas10
    If only France would do the same
    I think (wishfully) that the EU will move sooner or later to a true European Force. After than, NATO is no longer needed.

  29. #6539
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    near nowhere
    Posts
    2,162
    Last edited by archangelski; 27th June 2017 at 14:27.

  30. #6540
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    4,362
    Europe is not a country & as such a European force is a ridiculous idea, I would never die to defend Europe vs anyone. I would defending France vs the UK or Germany, like so many people from my family did. The day Europe falls it will be because of its own doing, it's not worth defending. The only people who would die for Europe are mere mercenaries.

    Nic

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 5 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 5 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

- Part of the    Network -

KEY AERO AVIATION NEWS

MAGAZINES

AVIATION FORUM

SHOP

 

WEBSITES