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Thread: Canadian Typhoon Project

  1. #1
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    Canadian Typhoon Project

    Hello All,

    As promised, I would like to update everyone on the mystical Canadian Typhoon project.

    The idea for a Typhoon restoration has been alive with me since the early 1990's and came one step closer with the acquisition of a good deal of factory drawing in 2009. With the recent purchase of Roger Marley's collection I now have enough original Typhoon parts and data to justify the commencement of construction to an airworthy standard. Unfortunately, given the nature of the beast, very little of the completed project will be original structure and it is fully expected to span decades to see through. Due mostly to Rogers commitment to finding as many original parts possible, some significant gaps have been filled in available data, and key structural components can now be built new. Discussions with Transport are ongoing, but due to the large volume of original components and the identifiable component of JP843, it is very likely that this aircraft will be registered under this serial number, as such it will be constructed in memory of Peter Price, 609 Sqn.

    I am currently organising and cataloguing the components acquired from Roger before construction begins, but materials are already arriving to begin work on the forward monocoque section. The project will begin with this section, while remaining components and materials are brought in to begin construction of new forward structure.

    Wings, and Sabre? Let's just take this one step at a time! It's all possible, and all being worked on in the background. The Sabre currently on hand will never fly, but is extremely valuable for patter purposes. Does this mean I'm building a new Sabre? Not at the moment but it is an option.

    Project construction is being carried out in a purpose built shop in British Columbia thanks to the generous support of VM Aerospace Ltd.

    I will provide updates as we move forward, any information that could be provided on remaining Typhoon parts, drawings or rumours are greatly appreciated, in most cases existing parts will only be required for pattern purposes and will be returned to their owners once they have been reverse engineered. As work moves forward, help from like minded groups, individuals and projects would be warmly received and reciprocated.

    A website will be developed in the coming months where progress can be tracked. Please feel free to contact me if you've got any questions, input or stories.
    Best regards,

    Ian Slater
    Typhoon Legacy Co. Ltd.
    www.typhoonlegacy.com
    https://www.facebook.com/hawkertyphoonjp843/

  2. #2
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    Fantastic! What a project.

  3. #3
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    Well good luck with it Alloy, I'd love to see one flying.

  4. #4
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    An amazing project as has already been said, even if it resulted in a static example it would still be a major achievement! Wishing you the very best with the project.

    With regards the engine, would it be possible to substitute a Griffon for the Sabre? The Tempest prototype and Mk.1 were intended to have the Griffon, could the Tempest installation be copied for a Typhoon? Obviously it wouldn't sound the same, but it might reduce some engine headaches? Just an armchair thought.
    "Talking about airplanes is a very pleasant mental disease." Sergei Sikorsky

  5. #5
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    Wow!
    This is a very exciting project.
    Thank you for posting and sharing this with us.
    I wish you the best of success and look forward to any further postings.

    Andy Scott

  6. #6
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    Thank you for the kind words all!

    Everything will be built with the intent to fly the aircraft, of course the timeline is foggy without having concrete sources for the missing bits, but the end result (bare minimum) will be a Typhoon on static but ready for flight. Should everything be ready and a Sabre still not be available, a Griffon will be considered to get the Typhoon in the air due to the fact that it would require very little modification. The goal remains to have this 100% authentic upon completion, Sabre included. It is also my intent to retain all jigs and build form blocks capable of producing multiple components, not production scale, but enough for spares support or to help with other projects either static or airworthy.

    More to follow as construction begins!
    Best regards,

    Ian Slater
    Typhoon Legacy Co. Ltd.
    www.typhoonlegacy.com
    https://www.facebook.com/hawkertyphoonjp843/

  7. #7
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    Dec 2012
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    103
    Hi Ian,

    It sounds a formidable project, I look forward to following it on your website.

    I hope you can share a lot of photos and experiences as you progress, as it will be quite interesting.

    All the best,
    Greg

  8. #8
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    Apr 2006
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    Sounds like a great project, good luck.
    Martin

  9. #9
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    Good news , what a great project , well presented and equally well received , all the best and keep us updated with plenty of pictures please .

  10. #10
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    Apr 2011
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    136
    Best of luck with this interesting project.
    Looking forward to watching this progress to hopefully an airworthy conclusion

    Roger

  11. #11
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    Can't wait to see how this develops

    Quote Originally Posted by Alloy View Post
    Does this mean I'm building a new Sabre? Not at the moment but it is an option.
    And I don't envy you this task. Surely new building a Sabre will be measured in $millions rather than thousands!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by j_jza80 View Post
    Can't wait to see how this develops



    And I don't envy you this task. Surely new building a Sabre will be measured in $millions rather than thousands!

    There is an interesting company that has demonstrated the technology that can be used to scan an original part and duplicate a rare aircraft engine. They are already in the process of making one. It will be very interesting to see this technology used for more aircraft restoration and to make rare parts more available. It certainly seems possible that this could lay the foundation for a new Sabre engine as well as new airframe components taken from digital measurements.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDQsYvkvOxA

    http://www.vintair.com/

  13. #13
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    That's a very impressive video

  14. #14
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    DoraNineFan,

    Thank you very much for sharing the video and link, I had yet to find a company that worked on projects like this start to finish. A good deal of the complexities known in the Sabre are eliminated through use of modern CNC, the tooling that Napier developed was simply amazing at the time, and would be incredibly difficult and expensive to recreate today for a short production run of engines. There is no doubt that the costs in a new build small batch of Sabres will be very steep, but through the use of 3D scanning, mould printing and machining it takes some of the sting out!

    While 3D scanning can only capture accessible geometry, it can also be used in conjunction with known data to reverse engineer a good portion of the wing for the Typhoon. Through the use of remaining drawings, articles and the AP; most of the internal structures material specifications and profiles can be obtained. Using 3D scanning the external geometry can be captured complete with accurate positioning data from each component based on rivet lines, add some careful inspection through access holes to determine the location of lightening holes and small brackets, and I'm one step closer to a new wing. A slow process though, at the moment I've been passed between Hendon and Ottawa with each saying the other should be approached to grant access to MN235.
    Best regards,

    Ian Slater
    Typhoon Legacy Co. Ltd.
    www.typhoonlegacy.com
    https://www.facebook.com/hawkertyphoonjp843/

  15. #15
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    Oct 2008
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    35
    Great work Ian, good luck with Hendon and Ottawa. Perhaps an arrangement to share the scanned information with Hendon could sweeten the pot and smooth the way?

  16. #16
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    TriangleP,

    Great idea! It's often difficult to let information flow freely when it has come at great expense, but the likelihood of a project such as this (and others) succeeding without shared data is minimal, after all; the goal is to have a Typhoon in the air!
    Best regards,

    Ian Slater
    Typhoon Legacy Co. Ltd.
    www.typhoonlegacy.com
    https://www.facebook.com/hawkertyphoonjp843/

  17. #17
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    1,898
    Good luck Ian what an incredible project! I seem to remember reading (on here!) that some of the parts of MN235 were missing and replacements were made that weren't quite the right shapes (the spinner being one) but I'm sure u know about this-thought I'd better mention it just in case!
    What i really want to ask is this: do u foresee any certification issues with this new type of production for your Sabre?
    Thanks in anticipation.
    Last edited by Oxcart; 28th June 2015 at 22:53.
    Give a man a fish and eat for a day. Give a man a fishing rod and he'll eat for a lifetime. Give a man religion and he'll die praying for a fish!

  18. #18
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    Jul 2003
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    Good luck with your project Ian, sounds fantastic. If you have a complete Sabre then it will be no problem manufacturing new components. Modern machine tools are amazing, and as well as taking the sting out of reverse engineering, you can often produce a better product today. Its just a matter of being able to demonstrate to Aviation regulators that the project will be safe. A sadly departed family friend did some 60 ops in his Typhoon from the dust bowl of Normandy without an abort. Set your Sabre up correctly and it will reward you with bags of power and reliability.
    TN

  19. #19
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    Oxcart,

    MN235 has a Hastings spinner from my understanding, I have the same here. Although the diameter is right, they appear to be longer than what the Typhoon flew with. I've got the drawings for the correct spinner profile so will be ensuring that it is correct when all is complete. MN235 was also missing some cowling and the radiator, while the cowling isn't a problem, the radiator may be.

    TempestNut,

    If the new manufacturer route is required (still hoping to stumble across a few Sabres in crates) it will be complicated. Certification is possible of an entirely new built engine, but not a fast process. It will be required to run a specified number of hours, and be subject to complete tear-down and inspection. I've looked at this in the worst case possible, but it may still be possible to rebuild the engine in the same manner as the airframe under the Limited category - piece by piece. The aircraft could still fly under Griffon power until a Sabre built through this route becomes available.

    I think one of the big hesitations in a Typhoon restoration has, and always will be the Sabre, but it's important that it doesn't stop progress with the intent to fly. The goal is a Sabre, and it is possible, but will anyone complain if (while a Sabre is being built or restored) there is a Typhoon in the air under the power of a Griffon? I think most would just be happy to see a second Typhoon in a museum on static, it all helps tell the story.

    Step 1: certified airframe
    Step 2: certified engine, prop and systems

    It sure sounds simple!

    Another thing to consider is the version and mod status of the engine I'm working with, I am still working on identifying it, but I do know it is fitted with the early engine mounts. There were so many advances with the Sabre that lead to it being reliable in the last year of the war, that it is important not to recreate an engine with cooling problems etc.
    Best regards,

    Ian Slater
    Typhoon Legacy Co. Ltd.
    www.typhoonlegacy.com
    https://www.facebook.com/hawkertyphoonjp843/

  20. #20
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    Ian, you have a PM
    Cheers,Peter
    "Merlins always drip oil, when they don't....worry!"

  21. #21
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    Brilliant. I don't envy your journey ahead, Ian, but regardless of outcome this will be a significant, fascinating and ultimately spectacular project. Bravo, best wishes and good luck! I hope to see more updates as and when :-)
    "those who know keep quiet, and those who don't are frowned upon for asking." - snafu

  22. #22
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    Hi Ian,
    Perhaps cooperating with DaveR will be a good idea. He is working on a similar project. Sharing information, costs etc.
    Cees

  23. #23
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    A fantastic and ambititious project with which I wish you every success.
    The mind once expanded by a new idea never returns to its original size.

  24. #24
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    Marvellous to hear of this project. Good luck - I shall sit quietly on the sidelines watching progress with great interest (and hope, that you get it finished before I fall off me perch ).

    Roger Smith.
    A Blenheim, Beaufighter and Beaufort - together in one Museum. Who'd have thought that possible in 1967?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alloy View Post
    DoraNineFan,

    Thank you very much for sharing the video and link, I had yet to find a company that worked on projects like this start to finish. A good deal of the complexities known in the Sabre are eliminated through use of modern CNC, the tooling that Napier developed was simply amazing at the time, and would be incredibly difficult and expensive to recreate today for a short production run of engines. There is no doubt that the costs in a new build small batch of Sabres will be very steep, but through the use of 3D scanning, mould printing and machining it takes some of the sting out!

    While 3D scanning can only capture accessible geometry, it can also be used in conjunction with known data to reverse engineer a good portion of the wing for the Typhoon. Through the use of remaining drawings, articles and the AP; most of the internal structures material specifications and profiles can be obtained. Using 3D scanning the external geometry can be captured complete with accurate positioning data from each component based on rivet lines, add some careful inspection through access holes to determine the location of lightening holes and small brackets, and I'm one step closer to a new wing. A slow process though, at the moment I've been passed between Hendon and Ottawa with each saying the other should be approached to grant access to MN235.
    Nothing is impossible..... Just expensive!

    Did you buy Rogers Sabre engine? Did he/you ever manage to dismantle it? I only saw it the once the day he collected it, so didnt get a good look. Does it look straight enough to measure?

    The thing about digital scanning is that you wil still have to make a full 3d cad model of every part leaving "material-on" to allow for machining and shrinkage using the scan data as a guide.

    I think im correct in saying that Vintage aviator in NZ use new-made original design engines, in their flying reproductions.
    David Collins
    The de Havilland Hornet Project

  26. #26
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    Also, does anyone know what the sabre castings were made from? Cast iron/steel, or aluminium?

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcollins103 View Post
    Nothing is impossible..... Just expensive!
    ...
    I think im correct in saying that Vintage aviator in NZ use new-made original design engines, in their flying reproductions.
    Yes, the TVAL reproductions and originals are powered by rebuilt originals or new-builds of various types.
    http://thevintageaviator.co.nz/topic/projects/engines

    There are also modified Gnomes built by Classic Aero Machining Service in Omaka.
    http://www.cams.net.nz/Gnome%20Remanufacture.html

  28. #28
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    Aluminium.
    Quote Originally Posted by dcollins103 View Post
    Also, does anyone know what the sabre castings were made from? Cast iron/steel, or aluminium?
    WANTED FAIREY FIREFLY parts!
    Griffon74@btinternet.com

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by H.M.S Vulture View Post
    Aluminium.
    That makes it more viable.

  30. #30
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    I'll do my best to keep the updates flowing as the project moves forward, trying to keep photos available for visual progress of interesting items. I will likely be on here from time to time begging for parts and information as well so please forgive me in advance:

    Dcollins103,

    I did bring in Rogers Sabre with the project, and am very impressed at how clean it is (as far as I can tell), having spent so much time in mud at the bottom of the channel. There are some missing bits, and it has some areas that aren't useful for scanning, but others of mirror image that are. I don't think there will be a problem for the bulk of the engine if it goes this route. The engine is still assembled, but I intend to dismantle it to help preserve what is left, being a monster it will have to wait until a specific area in the shop can be allocated to proper disassembly. I would love to tear it apart now, but may have issues when I'm standing up to my hips in un-tagged parts!

    Cees,

    Collaboration is the key in my eyes, an amazing amount of doubled efforts can be saved. Dave and I have been in touch for many years, I hope that our projects will be able to lean on each other as we work forward.
    Best regards,

    Ian Slater
    Typhoon Legacy Co. Ltd.
    www.typhoonlegacy.com
    https://www.facebook.com/hawkertyphoonjp843/

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