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Thread: Rafale news & discussion part XVI

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by lukos View Post
    Nope.
    http://www.mbda-systems.com/mediagal...1424428103.pdf

    When you already have an IRST, why would you use a MICA sensor as an IRST?
    Because one can, and it comes for free fully integrated as part of the sensor fusion.
    Arguably legacy IRST still exist, even if victim of production obsolescence. Not sure it can be installed along side the latest FSO though.
    AF / DGA selected to not rush on the IRST replacement awaiting some of latest tech to mature I beleive. Meanwhile they rely ,apparently to their satisfaction, on MICA IR seekers and DDM-NG and eventual reco pod for IR watch.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by xman View Post
    Because one can, and it comes for free fully integrated as part of the sensor fusion.
    Arguably legacy IRST still exist, even if victim of production obsolescence. Not sure it can be installed along side the latest FSO though.
    AF / DGA selected to not rush on the IRST replacement awaiting some of latest tech to mature I beleive. Meanwhile they rely ,apparently to their satisfaction, on MICA IR seekers and DDM-NG and eventual reco pod for IR watch.
    Apparently it can still be fitted if the mission needs it, according to one of halloweene's buddies. My point on MICA is that using MICA when you have IRST, is like using your eyes instead of radar. What you're doing is looking a smaller patch of space at shorter distances than is already being monitored by the IRST. I can't see the sensor fusion value in that.

  3. #33
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    You can look on two different direction at the same time, you can't do that with a single IRST.

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  4. #34
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    How fast does it scan relative to a normal IRST though? The IRST scan rate kind of wipes out that advantage. Then you've got the fact that IRST will have already scanned that area a million times before any target gets within range of either missile seeker.
    Last edited by lukos; 19th May 2015 at 15:58.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by lukos View Post
    How fast does it scan relative to a normal IRST though? The IRST scan rate kind of wipes out that advantage. Then you've got the fact that IRST will have already scanned that area a million times before any target gets within range of either missile seeker.
    Coverage persistence ,wider FOV in the plan and below , faster geo-location with multi intersecting concurrent sensors, improved sensibility using sensors in different bands of the spectrum.....

  6. #36
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    Are there any particular details known about how the MICA IR is actually integrated in the sensor fusion process? I suppose it has at least two FoVs, one for search and one for acquisition? Does it possess a multiple target detection and tracking capability or is it simply searching for and acquiring the first target it detects? Are the bearing data produced by its seeker fused to increase angle tracking accuracy and/or can other sensors, the radar in particular be primed with it or is it more of a "slave to target" mode where the IR seeker itself is slaved to another sensor track?

    Concerning DDM-NG is there more known about its actual capability to do something else than plain missile detection and warning?

    Edit:
    MBDA states:
    "Other applications
    Thanks to the high-quality IR imagery produced by the DDM-NG sensor, many other applications can be foreseen on aircraft (Air Policing, Situational Awareness, Targeting, Assistance to navigation, Air Patrol, Anti-collision, “IR Black-Box”,...). DDM-NG can also be installed on wide-bodied aircraft, helicopters or ground vehicles."

    The question is whether any of these potential capabilities have been implemented already?
    Last edited by Scorpion82; 19th May 2015 at 17:32.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by xman View Post
    Coverage persistence ,wider FOV in the plan and below , faster geo-location with multi intersecting concurrent sensors, improved sensibility using sensors in different bands of the spectrum.....
    MICA has a smaller FoV than IRST plus fuselage obstructs view. Limited advantage for geolocation given proximity of sensors, better to just use IRST on two different aircraft. IRST already uses optimal detection band.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion82 View Post

    The question is whether any of these potential capabilities have been implemented already?
    I'd be surprised if they had and MBDA weren't advertising the fact.
    Last edited by lukos; 19th May 2015 at 20:11.

  8. #38
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    IRST is a good thing to have (that's why Rafale have it btw) but like Xman said due to production obsolescence many Rafale don't fly with it and rely on Mica and DDM-NG.
    FAF don't have the budget of the USA thus they need to prioritize some upgrade and they chose to upgrade the TV channel of the FSO, the DDM and the Damocles pod and postpone the IRST channel for later upgrade and rely on Mica, DDM-NG and new Talios pod.
    If you compare with the Typhoon (i know you love it), he has a good IRST but no AESA, FAF chose to prioritize the contrary.

  9. #39
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    Except DDM-NG doesn't do IRST according to its manufacturer. PIRATE was never prioritised it was just always there because they thought radar range may be compromised in a cold war scenario.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion82 View Post
    Are there any particular details known about how the MICA IR is actually integrated in the sensor fusion process? I suppose it has at least two FoVs, one for search and one for acquisition? Does it possess a multiple target detection and tracking capability or is it simply searching for and acquiring the first target it detects? Are the bearing data produced by its seeker fused to increase angle tracking accuracy and/or can other sensors, the radar in particular be primed with it or is it more of a "slave to target" mode where the IR seeker itself is slaved to another sensor track?

    Concerning DDM-NG is there more known about its actual capability to do something else than plain missile detection and warning?

    Edit:
    MBDA states:
    "Other applications
    Thanks to the high-quality IR imagery produced by the DDM-NG sensor, many other applications can be foreseen on aircraft (Air Policing, Situational Awareness, Targeting, Assistance to navigation, Air Patrol, Anti-collision, “IR Black-Box”,...). DDM-NG can also be installed on wide-bodied aircraft, helicopters or ground vehicles."

    The question is whether any of these potential capabilities have been implemented already?
    The “multi-sensor data fusion” provides a link between the battlespace surrounding the aircraft and the pilot’s brain with its unique ability to grasp the outcome of tactical situations and make sensible decisions.

    It hinges on the computing power of the MDPU to process data from the RBE2-AESA radar, the “Front Sector Optronic” (FSO) system, the SPECTRA EW system, the IFF, the MICA infrared seekers, and the data link.
    http://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/...r-data-fusion/

    Autonomous lock-on from the seeker’s own IRST scans(from MDBA brochure)

    La version IR fait également office de capteur de veille infrarouge ce qui permet notamment à l’avion porteur de détecter des attaques de missiles infrarouges. Le MICA dispose par ailleurs d’une capacité multicibles interne qui permet au pilote de traiter un groupe de cibles proches.
    http://www.defense.gouv.fr/salle-de-...e-air-air-mica

    In English. The mica ir version is also used as IR watch notably for detection of IR missile threats. The mica has an internal multi target capability for treating a group of targets.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by xman View Post
    The “multi-sensor data fusion” provides a link between the battlespace surrounding the aircraft and the pilot’s brain with its unique ability to grasp the outcome of tactical situations and make sensible decisions.

    It hinges on the computing power of the MDPU to process data from the RBE2-AESA radar, the “Front Sector Optronic” (FSO) system, the SPECTRA EW system, the IFF, the MICA infrared seekers, and the data link.
    http://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/...r-data-fusion/

    Autonomous lock-on from the seeker’s own IRST scans(from MDBA brochure)

    La version IR fait également office de capteur de veille infrarouge ce qui permet notamment à l’avion porteur de détecter des attaques de missiles infrarouges. Le MICA dispose par ailleurs d’une capacité multicibles interne qui permet au pilote de traiter un groupe de cibles proches.
    http://www.defense.gouv.fr/salle-de-...e-air-air-mica

    In English. The mica ir version is also used as IR watch notably for detection of IR missile threats. The mica has an internal multi target capability for treating a group of targets.
    Heh, what d'ya know, ASRAAM has it too. Guess it figures, otherwise LOAL wouldn't be possible.

    http://www.mbda-systems.com/mediagal...1424427241.pdf

    ASRAAM accepts target information via the aircraft sensors, such as the
    radar or helmet mounted sight but can also act as an autonomous
    infrared search and track system.
    On the subject of fuses, I note the MICA has an RF proximity fuse, now I noticed something in a Russian EW advert that suggested their EW can play with RF fuses causing premature or delayed detonation. See 3:04:


  12. #42
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    Lukos, what is your point here ?

    MICA IR is also employed as IRST on 2000-5. Scan pattern is optimized by the aircraft's attack & navigation system which takes into account the fuselage and fuel tank position.
    Last edited by EC 5/25 Corsair; 19th May 2015 at 19:34.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion82 View Post
    Are there any particular details known about how the MICA IR is actually integrated in the sensor fusion process? I suppose it has at least two FoVs, one for search and one for acquisition? Does it possess a multiple target detection and tracking capability or is it simply searching for and acquiring the first target it detects? Are the bearing data produced by its seeker fused to increase angle tracking accuracy and/or can other sensors, the radar in particular be primed with it or is it more of a "slave to target" mode where the IR seeker itself is slaved to another sensor track?

    Concerning DDM-NG is there more known about its actual capability to do something else than plain missile detection and warning?

    Edit:
    MBDA states:
    "Other applications
    Thanks to the high-quality IR imagery produced by the DDM-NG sensor, many other applications can be foreseen on aircraft (Air Policing, Situational Awareness, Targeting, Assistance to navigation, Air Patrol, Anti-collision, “IR Black-Box”,...). DDM-NG can also be installed on wide-bodied aircraft, helicopters or ground vehicles."

    The question is whether any of these potential capabilities have been implemented already?
    That is a true problem. DDM-NG had to be a "plug and play" replacement of DDM, therfore not to need any SPECTRA software change. What Vianney told me is that it was involved in the passive shot he did in his six, but he was flying B301 testbed.
    The capabilities of DDM-NG are therfore implemented depending on spectra upgrades.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by EC 5/25 Corsair View Post
    Lukos, what is your point here ?

    MICA IR is also employed as IRST on 2000-5. Scan pattern is optimized by the aircraft's attack & navigation system which takes into account the fuselage and fuel tank position.
    Seems kind of silly when you already had an IRST. So why did it come out? Didn't fit with new TV OSF?

  15. #45
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    What's the MICA seeker's FoV? I was given to understand that it was around 120 deg (i.e. 60 deg off-boresight).

  16. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by lukos View Post
    Seems kind of silly when you already had an IRST. So why did it come out? Didn't fit with new TV OSF?
    I don't know, redundancy, better down-looking detection ?
    There's a couple of excellent reasons.

  17. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by halloweene View Post
    That is a true problem. DDM-NG had to be a "plug and play" replacement of DDM, therfore not to need any SPECTRA software change. What Vianney told me is that it was involved in the passive shot he did in his six, but he was flying B301 testbed.
    The capabilities of DDM-NG are therfore implemented depending on spectra upgrades.
    Most strange this isn't documented anywhere.

  18. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by lukos View Post
    Most strange this isn't documented anywhere.
    Maybe that's because Spectra's detailed capabilities and modes of operations aren't publicly documented... Just maybe ?

  19. #49
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    about "blocked by aircraft", there are two MICAs, one on each wingtip, so, unless you already shot one, chances are that each missile covers pretty nicely what the other doesn't see

  20. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Das Kardinal View Post
    Maybe that's because Spectra's detailed capabilities and modes of operations aren't publicly documented... Just maybe ?
    Not much point in that if someone in the know, and pilots on Twitter (allegedly), keep spewing them all over the internet. Something either is classified, or it isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by TooCool_12f View Post
    about "blocked by aircraft", there are two MICAs, one on each wingtip, so, unless you already shot one, chances are that each missile covers pretty nicely what the other doesn't see
    But still doesn't offer any better coverage than frontal IRST, except in downward direction maybe. What is the MICA's OBS capability in degrees anyway?

  21. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by xman View Post
    The “multi-sensor data fusion” provides a link between the battlespace surrounding the aircraft and the pilot’s brain with its unique ability to grasp the outcome of tactical situations and make sensible decisions.

    It hinges on the computing power of the MDPU to process data from the RBE2-AESA radar, the “Front Sector Optronic” (FSO) system, the SPECTRA EW system, the IFF, the MICA infrared seekers, and the data link.
    http://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/...r-data-fusion/

    Autonomous lock-on from the seeker’s own IRST scans(from MDBA brochure)

    La version IR fait également office de capteur de veille infrarouge ce qui permet notamment à l’avion porteur de détecter des attaques de missiles infrarouges. Le MICA dispose par ailleurs d’une capacité multicibles interne qui permet au pilote de traiter un groupe de cibles proches.
    http://www.defense.gouv.fr/salle-de-...e-air-air-mica

    In English. The mica ir version is also used as IR watch notably for detection of IR missile threats. The mica has an internal multi target capability for treating a group of targets.
    The sensor fusion description is rather generic and not really answering my question. The second source is more useful wrt my question, though "missile detection" appears not to be what is the purpose of it?

    The multitarget capability for "treating groups of targets" sounds somewhat like "picking one target out of a group of closely spaced targets. But there is maybe something lost in translation.

    Thanks for this one.

  22. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by halloweene View Post
    That is a true problem. DDM-NG had to be a "plug and play" replacement of DDM, therfore not to need any SPECTRA software change. What Vianney told me is that it was involved in the passive shot he did in his six, but he was flying B301 testbed.
    The capabilities of DDM-NG are therfore implemented depending on spectra upgrades.
    Are we talking about the six o'clock shot performed back in 2007?

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  24. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by lukos View Post
    My point on MICA is that using MICA when you have IRST, is like using your eyes instead of radar. What you're doing is looking a smaller patch of space at shorter distances than is already being monitored by the IRST. I can't see the sensor fusion value in that.
    Triangulation from multiple sensors will give better range data than available by IRST alone.

    Multiple sensors will also aid in discriminating spurious from non-spurious contacts.
    Brief and powerless is Man's life; on him and all his race the slow sure doom falls pitiless and dark.

  25. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by halloweene View Post
    Just found it myself, thanks. Couldn't find the proposed parts 2 & 3, any links to these?

    The article indeed talks about laser, EM and IR threat detection and targeting and also about the "visual data feed" from the MICA IR seeker, I suppose this should have been better translated as "bearing data".

  26. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion82 View Post
    The sensor fusion description is rather generic and not really answering my question. The second source is more useful wrt my question, though "missile detection" appears not to be what is the purpose of it?

    The multitarget capability for "treating groups of targets" sounds somewhat like "picking one target out of a group of closely spaced targets. But there is maybe something lost in translation.

    Thanks for this one.
    Right, it is rather generic and not going deep into the details, best depiction I know come from pilots testimony

    "The Rafales work in a truly networked environment, and are fed targeting and other tactical data from a wide range of coalition sources through the Link 16 datalink. Incoming data is combined with that collected by the aircraft’s own sensors – Thales SPECTRA self-protection suite, OSF electro-optics, RBE-2 radar and even the infra-red guided version of MBDA’s MICA air-to-air missile which, as it scans continuously, can provide IR imagery to the central data processing system. “MICA is not just a missile, it’s an extra sensor as well,” says Pierre G., and its detection range is much longer than generally supposed.
    http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...%E2%80%9D.html

    About the multi target, I did read at one point the possibility for the missile to optimize detonation for taking out multiple targets at once, but not totally sure how accurate or even pertinent that is.

  27. #57
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    French team in India to start Rafale negotiations


    French team constituted to negotiate the Rafale deal has arrived in India and talks can start anytime now, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said today as he described the agreement as "one of the bold initiatives" of the Modi government.

    Parrikar said India has constituted a committee headed by Air Marshal SBP Sinha to hold negotiations with the French team.






    "The negotiations on Rafale deal can start anytime from now. Indian government has already formed a committee headed by Air Marshal Sinha. The team from France already arrived in India on May 12 to start the negotiations," he told reporters.
    ..

  28. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion82 View Post
    Just found it myself, thanks. Couldn't find the proposed parts 2 & 3, any links to these?

    The article indeed talks about laser, EM and IR threat detection and targeting and also about the "visual data feed" from the MICA IR seeker, I suppose this should have been better translated as "bearing data".
    Vianney is negociating so as to unveil some things., but hasn't published them yet. Part 2 should be about his time in 1/7 Provence and 3 A film.

    Here is a slightly different article he wrote about egyptian sales http://www.defesanet.com.br/ho/notic...-fighter-jet-/

  29. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rii View Post
    Triangulation from multiple sensors will give better range data than available by IRST alone.

    Multiple sensors will also aid in discriminating spurious from non-spurious contacts.
    Not really useful, because aircraft rarely ever (never) fly missions alone anyway, so you always have more than one source and two sensors separated by 200-300m give far better range data than two separated by half a wing span, especially when the former both have zoom optics and better resolution than a missile seeker. At the sort of ranges missile seekers work at, IRST gives perfectly adequate range information, and hell it defeats the object of triangulation if the missile seeker can already see the damn target anyway, just hit the fire button already.

  30. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by halloweene View Post
    7.8nm, the IIR missile seeker would lock itself from that range, so it's impossible to verify if any additional capability was used other than a bog standard LOAL OTS shot.

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