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Thread: Rafale news & discussion part XVI

  1. #1
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    Rafale news & discussion part XVI

    Link to the previous thread:

    http://forum.keypublishing.com/showt...ssion-%28XV%29

    Discuss!

    Nic

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    Quote Originally Posted by EC 5/25 Corsair View Post
    What you state here is wrong.
    The APQ-110 TFR is unable to perform automated following run below 200 ft. It is the minimum altitude selectable on the TFR control panel. I'll also add that the F-111 max. speed at sea level is mach 1,2 - certainly less with draggy external stores.

    Its successor the F-15E, coupled with AAQ-13 navigation and TFR pod, is unable to provide better performance either. 200 ft is the great minimum.

    On Mirage 2000D and N, the minimum altitude in automated TFR is also 200 ft. However, due to improved flight controls versus the F-15E and especially the Tornado IDS, it is able to perform much tighter turns (60° vs 45°), minimizing the exposures when passing crests and following the flight plan.
    TFR laws used are at 99% of the time the 'HARD' law (load factors remain classified). 2000D are thus really sticked to the ground.

    On Rafale, there is no official figure, I've read between 150 and 200 ft.
    Moreover, newer radar technology allows better terrain resolution as well as the ability to perform both terrain following ops and airspace surveillance and tracking. If discretion is needed, both Mirage 2000D and Rafale (not 2000N) can perform TFR operations on a digital elevation file.

    If needed, the pilot can manually control the aircraft (with trajectory cues or not), TF altitude being up to the crew dexterity and airframe limitations.
    Speeds are roughly between mach 0,9 and can frisk with mach 1, depending on many factor such as the flight phase (fuel and weapon load) at military power.

    Agility remains strictly limited by flight control laws. With heavy external stores, on Mirage 2000, the pilot has to switch to 'LOAD' (CHARGES in French) mode (called ST2 on Rafale).
    Performance limitations in roll are 135°/s, load factor is 5,5 G (6,5 G at stick mechanical stop), versus respectively 270°/s and 9/12 G in A/A mode. These figures are for the 2000, I don't know the specs on Rafale but they are fairly similar - note that these are software limitation, and not hardware. Higher loads can be pulled, but with potentially wearing or damaging effects on the airframe.

    The F-16 Block 60 can do automated terrain following as low as 100 ft, so does that make it a stealth aircraft now as well?

    As with all F-16s since the Block 15, the Block 60 has a programmable data transfer cartridge (DTC). While the physical size of the DTC has not changed over the years, its memory capacity has increased dramatically. In addition to communications and route information, for example, it can also hold a digital terrain elevation database (DTED). The DTED for an operational area is a powerful tool that provides terrain elevation and resultant ground clearance when combined with aircraft altitude.

    For low-altitude ingress, the aircraft has two terrain-following (TF) modes. One, database terrain following (DBTF), uses the DTED to assure terrain clearance. The other, radar terrain following (RTF), uses the APG-80 to establish terrain separation. The pilot can select which TF mode he wants to use, and altitudes from 100ft (30m) to 1,000ft can be selected and flown manually or hands off.

    Of the two modes, DBTF has several advantages over RTF. First, it is not limited by the radar's physical look-angle capability. Even mildly aggressive manoeuvres at low altitude can move the aircraft's projected flight path outside the radar's field of view. DBTF "sees" all the terrain around the aircraft, allowing for more aggressive manoeuvring during terrain-following ingress to the target.

    A reduced radio-frequency signature is another benefit of DBTF operations. Since the radar is not required to assure terrain clearance, the Block 60 is less likely to give away its position by its own radar emissions. But it should not be construed that DBTF will be the pilot's mode of choice. Database terrain following lives in a virtual world, where inaccurate or incomplete terrain data could cause real problems. One large advantage RTF has over DBTF is reality versus virtual reality. RTF uses the actual ground, as sensed by the radar, to compute terrain clearance. In some cases, pilots may be willing to be a bit less stealthy to be more assured of avoiding the ground.
    http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ng-the-174510/

    I really don't get what this whole stealth vs low-altitude discussion is about. Aircraft have been capable of automated terrain following for quite some time now. In some cases low altitude tactics make sense, but with the increasing proliferation of really modern SHORAD systems it can be awfully risky. If warranted, a stealth aircraft can fly just as low as any 4th generation fighter, but it also has other options for operating in defended airspace...
    Last edited by hopsalot; 10th May 2015 at 13:24.

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    Single seat Rafale's don't yet have terrain following capabilities?

    April 9, 2015

    Integrated into the aircraft, this flight control mode mode allows it to fly at high speed and low level over the ground or sea. In complete safety and under all weather conditions, the aircraft can operate at very low level by day and night thanks to its sophisticated advanced autopilot, which protects the crew by preventing the aircraft from impacting natural (terrain features) and artificial (antennas, bridges, cables, etc) obstacles. The crew is thus free to concentrate on the prosecution of its mission, on surviving in a hostile environment and on achieving its operational objectives.

    Pilots testing this capability seek, above all, to ensure the safety of single-seat aircraft and their pilots during use of the terrain-following mode. The current trials aim to provide Air Force and Navy staffs a training profile offering lower costs, and including flight operations as well as simulator flights. However, this feature is currently only authorized on two-seat Rafales, whose crews include both pilot and navigator.
    http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...at-rafale.html

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    FFS this thread was created to have a place for news & discussion about the Dassault Rafale because the other one was trolled by EF fanboys.

    Besides TFR exists on single seat Rafales, it's just not allowed.

    Nic
    Last edited by Nicolas10; 10th May 2015 at 13:42.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicolas10 View Post
    FFS this thread was created to have a place for news & discussion about the Dassault Rafale because the other one was trolled by EF fanboys.

    Besides TFR exists on single seat Rafales, it's just not allowed.

    Nic

    I just posted a Rafale story. Is it impossible to make you happy?

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    As I said there is no figure for Rafale. It is certainly lower than 2000D w/ Antilope 5 considering RBE2 superior terrain scanning performances.

    As for Rafale C, it's obviously fitted with TF. Just not in the procedures yet.

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    By the way, automatic F-16E terrain following ops at 100 ft have only be tested, and are most likely to be authorized on flat terrain only (like LANTIRN). Nothing new versus 2000D/N or Rafale.

    But as Nic said, this is not on topic.
    Last edited by EC 5/25 Corsair; 10th May 2015 at 21:46.

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    Already posted on the other thread, but it has gone unnotified..

    http://airrecognition.com/index.php?...iew&id=1745%20

    MBDA contract for Qatar, to equip ordered Rafale :
    - 140 SCALP-EG
    - 300 AASM (size and seeker heads unknown)
    - 300 MICA (150 EM and 150 IR seeker heads)
    - 160 METEOR
    - 60 AM.39 B2

    Some say the Sniper XR pod will be integrated/
    Last edited by EC 5/25 Corsair; 10th May 2015 at 15:37.

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    I find the number of AASMs to be quite low. Otherwise not too bad.

    Nic

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    Number of SCALP-EG is pretty impressive. Is that not rather the black shaheen version?. I thought export of stand off weapons were restricted in term of their range .

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    Quote Originally Posted by mig-31bm View Post
    So USA, Russia, UK, China, India, Japan, south Korea , Israel , Canada, Australia, Netherlands,Turkey, Italy are all idiotic since they spend so much money develop or buying stealth aircraft ?
    only the France get it right
    Kinda moot point, IMHO. It's like saying that Big Mac, Fries and Bacon Clubhouse Sandwich cannot be harmful to your health if so many Americans, Germans, Canadians, Australians or Dutch are taking daily rides on the nearby McDonald's..

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    Quote Originally Posted by EC 5/25 Corsair View Post
    As I said there is no figure for Rafale. It is certainly lower than 2000D w/ Antilope 5 considering RBE2 superior terrain scanning performances.

    As for Rafale C, it's obviously fitted with TF. Just not in the procedures yet.
    I find it strange that 10+ years after the Rafale was operational it still isn't enabled. It doesn't suggest a great deal of confidence does it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by EC 5/25 Corsair View Post
    By the way, automatic F-16E terrain following ops have only be tested, and are most likely to be autohorized on flat terrain only (like LANTIRN). Nothing new versus 2000D/N or Rafale.

    But as Nic said, this is not on topic.

    So the Rafale can only do terrain following on flat terrain? The F-16 Block 60 isn't using LANTIRN, as explained in the article it is using either a digital terrain map or the APG-80 radar.... essentially the exact same approaches used by the Rafale.

    So what is the big deal?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hopsalot View Post
    I find it strange that 10+ years after the Rafale was operational it still isn't enabled. It doesn't suggest a great deal of confidence does it?
    Squadron 1/91 Gascogne is dedicated to low level penetration strike (if that it has to happen) and they are fitted with twin seaters.
    Squadrons 1/7 and 2/30 are not tasked with such things, thus they do not employ automated TFR.

    As simple as that.

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    Being tested on one seater at CEAM at this very moment

    http://www.defens-aero.com/2015/04/a...onoplaces.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by hopsalot View Post
    So the Rafale can only do terrain following on flat terrain? The F-16 Block 60 isn't using LANTIRN, as explained in the article it is using either a digital terrain map or the APG-80 radar.... essentially the exact same approaches used by the Rafale.

    So what is the big deal?
    Where do I or you imply that Rafale can only do TFR on flat terrain ? I was talking about the 100 ft test.
    Stop being a smartass and make your point instead of posting for nothing.
    Last edited by EC 5/25 Corsair; 10th May 2015 at 21:45.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hopsalot View Post
    So the Rafale can only do terrain following on flat terrain? The F-16 Block 60 isn't using LANTIRN, as explained in the article it is using either a digital terrain map or the APG-80 radar.... essentially the exact same approaches used by the Rafale.

    So what is the big deal?
    Te big deal is range, stand off powered mission AND more important, the integration of digital TF and RTF. (time to switch etc.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by halloweene View Post
    Te big deal is range, stand off powered mission AND more important, the integration of digital TF and RTF. (time to switch etc.)
    I am not sure what you are trying to say here, something garbled?

    As for integration of digital TF and RTF (radar terrain following?) I don't see how what the Rafale is reported to have is any different form the F-16 Block 60.

  19. #19
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    Do I read from this thread that the Rafale Ms of the MN, all single seat, when conducting the nuclear strike role from the carrier would not have the ability to use the TFR? Seems a bit strange to have two different delivery methods of the same stand-off weapon from the same generic aircraft?

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    The ASMP-A's role is to be the final warning before a Ballistic missile launch, the army have several scenario about this "final warning", one evoked by the Général Bentégeat is a very high altitude blast over an enemy area (city) in this scenario the nuclear damages will be very limited but the EM blast will destroy a majority of the electronic/electric/communication of the enemy in this area. The Rafale will launch the ASMP at high altitude so the TF is not needed in this case.

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    From the aviation news thread:
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0Y43VY20150513

    This basically confirms that the export deals are going to screw the AdlA out of new production Rafales for the next four years minimum. Probably going to have to push back the planned retirement of the remaining M2000's from 2020, or the number of aircraft in Fr. service is going to be very small indeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FBW View Post
    From the aviation news thread:
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0Y43VY20150513

    This basically confirms that the export deals are going to screw the AdlA out of new production Rafales for the next four years minimum. Probably going to have to push back the planned retirement of the remaining M2000's from 2020, or the number of aircraft in Fr. service is going to be very small indeed.
    My unerstanding is that the French air Force can deal with 2 years without delivery between 2015 and 2019.
    Dassault will have to increase its production rate to match that condition if they get more export orders.
    The Rafale international forum :
    http://rafale.freeforums.org/

    Rafale news blog :
    http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/

  23. #23
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    http://forum.keypublishing.com/showt...69#post2226369

    Quote Originally Posted by FBW View Post
    I've seen you say this before, and I know you're generally knowledgeable regarding information on the Rafale. But even MBDA has on product information that DDM-NG is integrated into the Spectra system as a the IR warning system. The imaging is not accessible to the pilot, nor integrated with anything other than the Spectra suite.
    The brochure says that "Thanks to the high-quality IR imagery produced by the DDM-NG
    sensor, many other applications can be foreseen on aircraft (Air Policing,Situational Awareness, Targeting, Assistance to navigation, Air Patrol,Anti-collision, “IR Black-Box”,…)."

    Nowhere on any of the information I've seen does it say that it has any other function than MLD currently.
    You're true : no information exists to support what Halloweene said.
    I side with him though.
    The imaging is not accessible to the pilot, nor integrated with anything other than the Spectra suite.
    The Spectra suite is integrated with everything else. Sensor fusion and MMI on Rafale might really be the most successful systems on Rafale.
    And since my answer is about DDM-NG, whatever you can read on Internet, when 2 extremely knowledgeable members of French forums speak to pilots and peoples in the know, it appears that DDM-NG is an IRST which tracks missiles as well as aircraft (the Mica IR sensor too, in fact, which is multi-target and a MLD, see here).

    It doesn't mean that Mica IR and DDM-NG are as good as dedicated IRST.

    I just show you a bit more. If people don't want to believe it, I don't care.
    Rafale news blog by Kovy :
    http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/

    The Rafale international forum :
    http://rafale.freeforums.org/

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    Quote Originally Posted by TMor View Post
    http://forum.keypublishing.com/showt...69#post2226369



    You're true : no information exists to support what Halloweene said.
    I side with him though.

    The Spectra suite is integrated with everything else. Sensor fusion and MMI on Rafale might really be the most successful systems on Rafale.
    And since my answer is about DDM-NG, whatever you can read on Internet, when 2 extremely knowledgeable members of French forums speak to pilots and peoples in the know, it appears that DDM-NG is an IRST which tracks missiles as well as aircraft (the Mica IR sensor too, in fact, which is multi-target and a MLD, see here).

    It doesn't mean that Mica IR and DDM-NG are as good as dedicated IRST.

    I just show you a bit more. If people don't want to believe it, I don't care.
    Nope.
    http://www.mbda-systems.com/mediagal...1424428103.pdf

    When you already have an IRST, why would you use a MICA sensor as an IRST?
    Last edited by lukos; 19th May 2015 at 12:20.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FBW View Post
    From the aviation news thread:
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0Y43VY20150513

    This basically confirms that the export deals are going to screw the AdlA out of new production Rafales for the next four years minimum. Probably going to have to push back the planned retirement of the remaining M2000's from 2020, or the number of aircraft in Fr. service is going to be very small indeed.
    In 2013, French government decided to introduce only 26 Rafales between 2014 ~ 2019.

    And 11 of them should have been delivered in 2014.

    Personally, I don't think screwing the AdlA out of new production of 15 Rafales will make much difference for the French airforce....

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    Quote Originally Posted by lukos View Post
    Nope.
    http://www.mbda-systems.com/mediagal...1424428103.pdf

    When you already have an IRST, why would you use a MICA sensor as an IRST?
    Because you think ALL the truth is on internet brochures? Please let ppl who inquired about DDM-NG speak.

    There is no more IRST on Rafale FSO, but a very powerful camera. Awaiting for a new IRST, IR function is performed via Mica and DDM-NG

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    Quote Originally Posted by halloweene View Post
    Because you think ALL the truth is on internet brochures? Please let ppl who inquired about DDM-NG speak.

    There is no more IRST on Rafale FSO, but a very powerful camera. Awaiting for a new IRST, IR function is performed via Mica and DDM-NG
    Wow, so the Rafale has no proper IRST now. I don't think we can accept something without a valid source, sorry. MICA seeker is surely limited in range relative to a proper IRST system?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lukos View Post
    Wow, so the Rafale has no proper IRST now. I don't think we can accept something without a valid source, sorry. MICA seeker is surely limited in range relative to a proper IRST system?
    No Rafale do not have "proper" IRST atm. Operatives sais it was not so useful as compared to a very powerful TV channel allowing ennemy identification in present ROEs. Is it lacking? Yes certainly. I never said Rafale program is perfect. New IRST is under development btw.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by halloweene View Post
    New IRST is under development btw.
    Where will they mount it?
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  30. #30
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    The FSO-IT still have room for an IRST.
    Rafale news blog by Kovy :
    http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/

    The Rafale international forum :
    http://rafale.freeforums.org/

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