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Thread: Rafale news & discussion part XVI

  1. #2911
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    I thought we were done with the AOA!?

    I am more interested in what could be included in the F4.

    Also, the extra (broadband) EW stuff that India has ordered, is there a possibility that some of that can be fed back to the French Rafale, maybe as part of F4? And perhaps also other Rafale users?

  2. #2912
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loke View Post
    I thought we were done with the AOA!?
    s?
    So did I. Just giving Hallow the information he requested.

  3. #2913
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBW View Post
    http://www.codeonemagazine.com/article.html?item_id=187

    Flynn describes it here too, not withstanding the controversy of his opinion about kinematics. He does describe the high alpha controllability.

    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...-super-382078/
    Thx for the quote.

    All variants of the F-35 are capable of flying at Mach 1.6 and 50° angle-of-attack, he says

  4. #2914
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    Quote Originally Posted by halloweene View Post
    Still waiting for a clue that the assumption 50° AoA carefree handling of F-35 is true. Haven't seen any.
    Oh, C'mon, I said it already, you and others have posted it and mentioned it numerous time: the test report and the now infamous Pedal Turn. Most aircraft are inhibited in alpha (pitch angle) because they are unstable in roll and/or yaw*. If you can ram the rudder pedal all the way to increase your turn rate with that attitude, your nose perched in the sky at 50 deg AoA, it only means that you have care free handling at max AoA (obviously software inhibited) or have become an arty sergeant manning a WWII era bofors canon. EoA

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    *The time for double amplitude time was also discussed here (Grippen thread probably). We also mentioned and guided you through potential material regarding dynamic lift and the consequences of a closed couple canard configuration. I put at your attention the time lag inherent with a Canard/delta due to extensive chord length.
    Last edited by TomcatViP; 26th March 2017 at 22:48.

  5. #2915
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    *The time for double amplitude time was also discussed here (Grippen thread probably). We also mentioned and guided you through potential material regarding dynamic lift and the consequences of a closed couple canard configuration. I put at your attention the time lag inherent with a Canard/delta due to extensive chord length.
    You simply apply studies unrelated to make a point. Your "dynamic lift assessments were simply funny. Still waiting a WWII gunservant to make a full roll at 50° AoA...

  6. #2916
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loke View Post
    I am more interested in what could be included in the F4.

    Also, the extra (broadband) EW stuff that India has ordered, is there a possibility that some of that can be fed back to the French Rafale, maybe as part of F4? And perhaps also other Rafale users?
    An associated question to my one the other day regarding the F4 is about a HMS. Given a HMS is being integrated on the Rafale for an export customer will F4 have one as standard? Would seem an opportunity lost given export customers are requiring a HMS as a mandatory integration.

  7. #2917
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    Quote Originally Posted by halloweene View Post
    You simply apply studies unrelated to make a point. Your "dynamic lift assessments were simply funny.
    Ok. I won't bother the reader by requesting what is your proof that this is unrelated. Let's dodge the drama in a Lightning way.
    Last edited by TomcatViP; 26th March 2017 at 23:34.

  8. #2918
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomcatViP View Post
    Ok. I won't bother the reader by requesting what is your proof that this is unrelated. Let's dodge the drama in a Lightning way.
    AGREE

  9. #2919
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    One thing I have been thinking about regarding the Indian Rafale: when they made the decision it was mentioned that Rafale had "strategic" importance and at the time many believed the "strategic" importance was related to the Rafale as a Nuclear capable a/c -- however others pointed out that they already have an a/c for this (was it the Mirage 2000?).

    Perhaps one other "strategic" capability that the Rafale could offer (in particular the beefed-up Rafale they will be getting) is to perform SEAD. Currently it seems to me that the IAF does not have a very strong SEAD capability. Rafale no doubt has huge potential in this field, much more so than any other a/c in the IAF inventory.

    In particular when China (and Pakistan?) is fielding more and more advanced IADS (including the latest S-300/S-400) the importance of having SEAD capability that can handle such high-level threat environments become critical.

    So what do people think about this "hypothesis"?
    Last edited by Loke; 27th March 2017 at 11:39.

  10. #2920
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    Hollande proved to be a Dr Jekyll Mr Hyde kind of guy in the polish helicopter deal,
    i think indians were forced to buy them or face the consequences.
    but there is still time to switch type into rafale M, in which case its still a defensible purchase
    the missile will require about five times the G capability of the target to complete a successful intercept.
    -Robert L Shaw

  11. #2921
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    India was not forced to buy Rafale. It was already qualified as per MMRCA evaluation along with eurofighter. It just was a different deal as MMRCA tender was cancelled.

    What configuration of Rafale did India order is still not known. They do like the Rafales is a given.

    Now that Manohar Parrikar is out as defence minister, it would be interesting how the next order for Rafale takes shape. I believe there will be more orders by India by 2019.

  12. #2922
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    indians set out to buy 120 fighters for 10 billion and came back with 36 fighters for 9 billion,
    if that wasnt done at gunpoint, then what is ?
    the missile will require about five times the G capability of the target to complete a successful intercept.
    -Robert L Shaw

  13. #2923
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    Quote Originally Posted by obligatory View Post
    indians set out to buy 120 fighters for 10 billion and came back with 36 fighters for 9 billion,
    if that wasnt done at gunpoint, then what is ?
    A) an entirely irrealistic budget from the start, B) a selection process wich took so much time, a decade and a half, that inflation had a massive efect on what was an entirely irrealistic budget in 2001 (nevermind 2016), c) a technical selection process that ensured that the two most capable aircraft were chosen for the final fly off, but it also ensured that the two most expensive options from the entire contest ended up fighting for the final contract.
    India bought the dam thing because the IAF actually likes it, not because France has any leverage on the Indian government, they dont.
    Last edited by Sintra; 27th March 2017 at 16:56.

  14. #2924
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    Quote Originally Posted by obligatory View Post
    indians set out to buy 120 fighters for 10 billion and came back with 36 fighters for 9 billion,
    if that wasnt done at gunpoint, then what is ?
    And who put the gun? You? LoL.
    When was MMRCA tender floated? What were the terms and conditions then? You are comparing that deal without 50% offset to this deal with 50% offset along with weapons package including Meteor and Scalp also along with 75% avaibility rate at two different airbases. Please go through the two deals MMRCA and the current deal G2G in detail before writing and then do the economics. Regarding the Gun point..... I just can't stop laughing .....

  15. #2925
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    i'm also comparing full ToT, whatever that means, to zilch ToT,
    as for leverage, france has at least as much leverage over india as over poland,
    they can release acoustic signature of subs they sold, there are literally hundreds of things they can do to harm the indian prime minister and india, and another hundreds of things they can decide not to do, as in supporting india in any shape or form
    the missile will require about five times the G capability of the target to complete a successful intercept.
    -Robert L Shaw

  16. #2926
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    Quote Originally Posted by obligatory View Post
    i'm also comparing full ToT, whatever that means, to zilch ToT,
    126 Rafale for 10 B$ assuming that 108 a/c were to be produced by HAL.
    Now when they figured out they didn't have the industrial tools to produce the planes, it was not 10 B$ anymore.

    So
    36 Rafale = 9 B$
    18 Rafale + 108 licences to localy build a/c = 10 B$
    Last edited by Kovy; 27th March 2017 at 20:34.
    The Rafale international forum :
    http://rafale.freeforums.org/

    Rafale news blog :
    http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/

  17. #2927
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    Quote Originally Posted by obligatory View Post
    i'm also comparing full ToT, whatever that means, to zilch ToT,
    as for leverage, france has at least as much leverage over india as over poland,
    they can release acoustic signature of subs they sold, there are literally hundreds of things they can do to harm the indian prime minister and india, and another hundreds of things they can decide not to do, as in supporting india in any shape or form
    France would risk its relations with a Billion people Democracy because of one deal?
    The chaps at the "ministère des Affaires étrangères" are not dumb (i hope).

  18. #2928
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sintra View Post
    France would risk its relations with a Billion people Democracy because of one deal?
    The chaps at the "ministère des Affaires étrangères" are not dumb (i hope).
    Lol. Sadly, nothing is less certain. Take my words for granted.

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