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Thread: Turkish aerospace

  1. #91
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    Who cares about the displacement of the ships? Your analogy does not make sense at all.. At 24,300 tons norminal load, a Kirov is heavier than many aircraft carriers. It also carries more aircraft than an ordinary warship so is it also a light aircraft carrier?

    All 3 ships you mention are "light carriers", they have dedicated mission of carrying fixed wing aircraft. they don't have a well deck to support amphibious operations. They don't have an internal layout to accomodate masses of troops or accomodate armored vehicles.. They have hangar, elevators and a ski-pad and nothing else.

    TCG anadolu is a landing ship, with helicopter platform on top and a dock to support ampihibious operations, hence a LHD. However navy intents to use it has nothing to with it.. *Turkish Navy* claiming it a light carrier is also unfounded. Its labeled as "L-408", just like other amphibious warfare ships of Turkish Navy like Bayraktar (L-402/403) Osman Gazi (L-125) Bey class (L-123/124).

    If Fill a LHD with helicopters it won't be a LHA... Fill it with tanks it won't be a dock landing ship, it still has platform and a well deck. Fill it with troops it won't be a troop ship. Fill it with civillian passengers it won't be a cruise ship; it will still be a LHD. If you fill it with F-35Bs by removing half of the helicopters, or tanks and APCs, or store additional F-35Bs on deck, it still doesn't change the fact the ship itself is a LHD, and in no way a light aircraft carrier.

    In some kind of retarded dream-world AKP politicans and AKP bots somehow think aircraft carrier > landing ship... Obviously I don't approve, but I do understand the reasoning completely; Turkey did build many landing ships in the past, all were 100% domestic ones. Turkish naval industry also build 100% domestic ships with 1.5 times the size and 3 times the displacement of TCG Anadolu. There is no glory in building a yet-another "landing ship" that is larger but not special-large, which is not a domestic design but merely a carbon copy of an existing ship... But if you label it as a light carrier, chestpounding about building the first aircraft carrier of Turkey would be inmeasurable. Half of the knowledgable minority will swallow it due to nationalistic politic reasons, and great majority in their ignorance, will truly think its a carrier. Another victory for AKP.

    All this "light carrier" debate kind of reminds me passing LTE as "4.5G; fastest bestest internet of the world", where original LTE is not even 4G as it doesn't match IMT-Advanced compliance of the International Telecommunications union. "LTE-Advanced" is the first technology to match 1Gbit/sec target of ITU-R, and was labeled "True 4G" in everywhere else around the world, but *basic* LTE in Turkey is labeled as "4.5G".. When asked about "why my phone says 4G" all 3 mobile operators even go on to say "as 4.5G is very new, phone's firmware doesn't show it, but you actually connect at 4.5G speeds".. Probably because -in his ignorance- Erdogan some years ago said "there won't be 4G in Turkey because its an obsolete tecnology"... Now everyone is playing along, by openly lying to the people about all this 4G-4.5G nonsense...

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andraxxus View Post
    Take-off would not be a big deal, install some shorter-than-usual catapult before ski-jump and those two systems will work in combination to launch any non-VTOL aircraft...
    FFS! Stay in school man!
    Latencia Profecionalis

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andraxxus View Post
    Who cares about the displacement of the ships? Your analogy does not make sense at all.. At 24,300 tons norminal load, a Kirov is heavier than many aircraft carriers. It also carries more aircraft than an ordinary warship so is it also a light aircraft carrier?

    All 3 ships you mention are "light carriers", they have dedicated mission of carrying fixed wing aircraft. they don't have a well deck to support amphibious operations. They don't have an internal layout to accomodate masses of troops or accomodate armored vehicles.. They have hangar, elevators and a ski-pad and nothing else.

    TCG anadolu is a landing ship, with helicopter platform on top and a dock to support ampihibious operations, hence a LHD. However navy intents to use it has nothing to with it.. *Turkish Navy* claiming it a light carrier is also unfounded. Its labeled as "L-408", just like other amphibious warfare ships of Turkish Navy like Bayraktar (L-402/403) Osman Gazi (L-125) Bey class (L-123/124).

    If Fill a LHD with helicopters it won't be a LHA... Fill it with tanks it won't be a dock landing ship, it still has platform and a well deck. Fill it with troops it won't be a troop ship. Fill it with civillian passengers it won't be a cruise ship; it will still be a LHD. If you fill it with F-35Bs by removing half of the helicopters, or tanks and APCs, or store additional F-35Bs on deck, it still doesn't change the fact the ship itself is a LHD, and in no way a light aircraft carrier.

    In some kind of retarded dream-world AKP politicans and AKP bots somehow think aircraft carrier > landing ship... Obviously I don't approve, but I do understand the reasoning completely; Turkey did build many landing ships in the past, all were 100% domestic ones. Turkish naval industry also build 100% domestic ships with 1.5 times the size and 3 times the displacement of TCG Anadolu. There is no glory in building a yet-another "landing ship" that is larger but not special-large, which is not a domestic design but merely a carbon copy of an existing ship... But if you label it as a light carrier, chestpounding about building the first aircraft carrier of Turkey would be inmeasurable. Half of the knowledgable minority will swallow it due to nationalistic politic reasons, and great majority in their ignorance, will truly think its a carrier. Another victory for AKP.

    All this "light carrier" debate kind of reminds me passing LTE as "4.5G; fastest bestest internet of the world", where original LTE is not even 4G as it doesn't match IMT-Advanced compliance of the International Telecommunications union. "LTE-Advanced" is the first technology to match 1Gbit/sec target of ITU-R, and was labeled "True 4G" in everywhere else around the world, but *basic* LTE in Turkey is labeled as "4.5G".. When asked about "why my phone says 4G" all 3 mobile operators even go on to say "as 4.5G is very new, phone's firmware doesn't show it, but you actually connect at 4.5G speeds".. Probably because -in his ignorance- Erdogan some years ago said "there won't be 4G in Turkey because its an obsolete tecnology"... Now everyone is playing along, by openly lying to the people about all this 4G-4.5G nonsense...
    You miss the point.

    TCG Anadolu has an aviation hangar and fuel supply systems for combat aircraft together with a 12.5 degree ski-jump and air traffic control radars/systems.
    Turkish Lloyd has classed the vessel as an amphibious assault vessel/light carrier

    This has nothing to do with Turkish domestic policies but Turkish Armed Services requirements. It is no secret that the Turkish Navy will use the vessels as a Light Carriers. Is it an LHD? Yes, Is it an amphibious assault ship? Yes, Is it a light aircraft carrier? Yes.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z1pp0 View Post
    FFS! Stay in school man!
    Anything to backup your more than idiotic attitude?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar View Post
    TCG Anadolu has an aviation hangar and fuel supply systems for combat aircraft together with a 12.5 degree ski-jump and air traffic control radars/systems.
    All of these apply to Juan Carlos I the TCG Anadolu is based upon. In fact, you would be hard pressed to find any meaningful differences between JC1 and Anadolu. Same length, width height, deck length, same diesel electric power plant, same ski jump, same elevator configuration and EXACT same airwing; 12 fixed wing + 12 helicopters...

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andraxxus View Post
    Anything to backup your more than idiotic attitude?



    All of these apply to Juan Carlos I the TCG Anadolu is based upon. In fact, you would be hard pressed to find any meaningful differences between JC1 and Anadolu. Same length, width height, deck length, same diesel electric power plant, same ski jump, same elevator configuration and EXACT same airwing; 12 fixed wing + 12 helicopters...
    playing the devil's advocate here (the actual devil's advocate, not the member here who doesn't understand the meaning)..

    isnt the JC1 and its Turkish and Aussie clones, the only LHD with a ski jump?
    its design seems to imply capability of dual use.
    after all the Spaniards replaced their helicopter carrier, Principal of Australia, with an LHD

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Y-20 Bacon View Post
    playing the devil's advocate here (the actual devil's advocate, not the member here who doesn't understand the meaning)..

    isnt the JC1 and its Turkish and Aussie clones, the only LHD with a ski jump?
    its design seems to imply capability of dual use.
    after all the Spaniards replaced their helicopter carrier, Principal of Australia, with an LHD
    The JC1 class comes in many configurations that users can select and/or modify for their own needs. However, they essentially have been designed to also operate as a light carrier/LPD/LHD.

  7. #97
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    The major criterion for me is if the ship has its own fixed air wing and the facilities, skillsets, consumables, etc. to support them. If so, you can call the ship an aircraft carrier if you like. Ergo, Juan Carlos is an aircraft carrier, while the Australian and Turkish variants are not.

    Of course that naturally raises the question of how one distinguishes between aircraft carriers. A number of potential metrics suggest themselves, but the terms "light carrier", "fleet carrier", and "supercarrier" are not obviously inadequate.
    Last edited by Rii; 5th March 2017 at 07:21.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rii View Post
    The major criterion for me is if the ship has its own fixed air wing and the facilities, skillsets, consumables, etc. to support them. If so, you can call the ship an aircraft carrier if you like. Ergo, Juan Carlos is an aircraft carrier, while the Australian and Turkish variants are not.

    Of course that naturally raises the question of how one distinguishes between aircraft carriers. A number of potential metrics suggest themselves, but the terms "light carrier", "fleet carrier", and "supercarrier" are not obviously inadequate.
    The Turkish variants are most definitely an aircraft carrier.

    It has:

    Dedicated air traffic control radars;
    JP 8 Fuel System;
    12.5 degree ski jump;
    Aviation hangar;

    Turkey Started the Construction of its future LHD TCG Anadolu

    Turkey began the construction of its first LHD / amphibious assault ship on Saturday, April 30th. The first steel cut ceremony was held at Sedef shipyard in Tuzlay Bay close to Istanbul. During the ceremony President of Turkish Republic Recep Tayyip Erdogan declared that "TCG Anadolu will be the first ship in the navy from which F-35B SVTOL planes will operate".

    Click image for larger version. 

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    President Erdogan also declared that TCG Anadolu would be delivered in 4 years (compared to the originally planned 5 years and a half).

    Turkey's Undersecretariat for Defense Industries (SSM) announced in December 2013 that it selected Sedef shipyard as winner of its LPD tender and that final contract negotiations with this shipyard could begin. Sedef shipyard in Turkey offers a design based on Juan Carlos LHD under the collaboration with Spain's Navantia.

    Landing Platform Dock Project
    According to SSM, the Landing Platform Dock Project (LPD)’s main purpose is the acqusition of one Landing Platform Dock in order to meet the operational requirements of Turkish Naval Forces. The scope of the procurement is for:
    - 1 LPD and
    - Four Landing Craft Mechanics (LCM)
    - Twenty seven Amphibious Assault Vehicles (AAV),
    - Two Landing Craft Personnel Vehicles (LCVP),
    - One Commander Boat
    - One RHIB (Rubber Hull Inflated Boat) will be acquired

    One of the requirement was for a Privately Owned Turkish Shipyard to be main contractor, also responsible for design, construction, integration and tests and final performance.

    The other proposals which were rejected were:

    RMK Marine Shipyard offering its own indigenous design and Desan shipyard offering a design based on South Korea's Dokdo class. At the early stage of the tender a Chinese company submitted its design proposal but then backed away.

    At IDEF 2015, Sedef shipyard gave the latest LHD specifications to Navy Recognition:
    Length overall: 231 meters
    Maximum beam: 32 meters
    Draught: 6.8 meters
    Height: 58 meters
    Maximum speed: 21 knots
    Range: 9,000 miles @ economical speed
    Electric propulsion with 2x 11 MW Siemens eSIPOD; 5x MAN 16V32/40 Diesel GenSets and 2x bow thrusters
    Complete hospital and sick bay

    Combat systems:
    Genesis Advent CMS with amphibious and joint operations capability
    Link 11/16/22/JRE/VMF
    1x SMART-S Mk2 3D Search Radar
    2x LPI radars
    2x Navigation radars
    1x Air traffic and control radar
    1x PAR radar
    4x 25mm Aselsan STOP
    3x 12.7mm Aselsan STAMP
    2x Raytheon Phalanx CIWS
    Aselsan R-ESM
    Aselsan jammers
    Chaff/IR Decoy launching system
    Aseslan TORK torpedo countermeasure system
    IRST
    HF/VHF/UHF and satellite communication systems

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Amphibious capacity and force projection:

    Garage for heavy loads: 1410 m˛ (MBTs, AAVs, TEU containers...)
    Dock: 1165 m˛ (4x LCMs or 2x LCACs)
    Light cargo garage: 1880 m˛ (AAVs, ZPTs, TEU containers...)
    Aviation hangar: 900 m˛ (S-70B, AW-149, CH-47 etc.)
    Flight Deck: 5440 m˛ (6 landing spots)

    The LPD is a single hull vessel made of steel whose platform is designed by Navantia and combat system integrated by ASELSAN and HAVELSAN. The design is based on a combination of military and commercial standards and specifications. The structure, equipment and materials comply with Turk Loydu Classification rules and civil standards, whist her combat system, ammunition handling and stowage systems, systems of replenishment at sea, flight deck and the damage control system follow military standards

    Turkish Navy LHD Mission Profiles and Capabilities

    The ship is to be designed for four mission profiles:
    » Amphibious ops: Capable of transporting a marine infantry force to carry out landing and support operations.
    » Force Projection: Transporting forces to a theatre of operations.
    » Aircraft Carrier: A platform for carrier-based naval aircrafts, acting as a flight deck for strategic projection airborne vectors (Navy's Air Wing)
    » Humanitarian air ops: MOOTW (Military Operations Other Than War), humanitarian assistance, evacuation of crisis area, hospital ship in areas affected by natural disaster, etc.

    We reported in January last year that Turkey took the decision to built the future LHD (Turkish designation: LPD Project) as an aircraft carrier capable to deploy the F-35B, the STOVL variant of the Lockheed Martin built Joint Strike Fighter.
    Last edited by Bayar; 5th March 2017 at 11:09.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Y-20 Bacon View Post
    isnt the JC1 and its Turkish and Aussie clones, the only LHD with a ski jump?
    its design seems to imply capability of dual use.
    True, but there are other examples (like Wasp) that doesn't have a ski-jump but can carry VTOL fixed wing aircraft nonetheless. Technically, other LHDs like Mistral can also land Harriers, there is nothing prevents that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rii View Post
    Ergo, Juan Carlos is an aircraft carrier, while the Australian and Turkish variants are not.
    They are the same ship, with the ski-jump.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rii View Post
    The major criterion for me is if the ship has its own fixed air wing and the facilities, skillsets, consumables, etc. to support them. If so, you can call the ship an aircraft carrier if you like.
    ....
    Of course that naturally raises the question of how one distinguishes between aircraft carriers. A number of potential metrics suggest themselves, but the terms "light carrier", "fleet carrier", and "supercarrier" are not obviously inadequate.
    On this I disagree. A ship has a design mission, that defines what it is. Yamato-class battleships of WWII carried 7 fixed wing aircraft -albeit floatplanes-. It also had two catapults to launch them. Yamato could use its E13A's for air strikes 1000km distance from the ship with 250kg bombs, or its F1Ms for interception or anti-submarine roles, but no one in their sane minds would consider Yamato a "dual role light aircraft carrier" because it isn't. Its a battleship with impressive airwing.

    Look from the opposite perspective; HMS Illustrious' airwing was decomissioned in 2010, the ship itself operated for 4 years without its fixed wing aircraft. Out of sudden ship itself didn't transformed into a helicopter carrier. By design, it was still a light aircraft carrier. Same applies to Kiev and Kuznetsov; Yak-38s retired years before Admiral Gorshkov -officially- decomissioned. Or Kuznetsov was comissioned 4 years before it had its Su-33 squadrons.. No one would deny they are aircraft carriers because they didn't have an airwing.

    From my perspective, a ship is only an aircraft-carrier IF its primary design criteria is operating fixed wing aircraft. If it sacrifices great deals of its volume for troop&vehicle carriage and for a well deck, has a top speed not to keep-up with other combatants but merely to transport itself around, than its not an aircraft carrier. Anadolu will surely carry F-35Bs, but that is IMO, for supporting its own amphibious operations than to be labeled as "also a light carrier".

  10. #100
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    Turkey to display first model of its TF-X twin-engine 5th generation air superiority fighter at IDEF 2017 fair.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  11. #101
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    looks exactly like the FC-31, you should just buy it from China instead


  12. #102
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    The primary purpose of the TF-X program is to have a national aircraft. The secondary purpose: to export to Middle Eastern and African States.

  13. #103
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    that's ok. fc-31 can be your national plane like how fc-1 is pakistan's national plane.

    middle east and africa you say? why china said the same thing.
    good luck selling it there.

  14. #104
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    Would you purchase a fighter produced to NATO STAGNAGS with BaE Systems and Rolls Royce technological input or a Chinese knockoff when they are the same price?

  15. #105
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    This is just some fan art. They couldn't even be bothered to get the roundel right.

    That being said, it will probably look like an FC-31 or a twin engined F-35 or an F-22 light or KF-X...
    How can less be more? It's impossible. More is more.
    Yngwie Malmsteen

  16. #106
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    The problem is only: will the TF-X ever fly and even more to Your comparison if, WHEN will it be operational. By the way I think it will never be available for the same price and even more funny You call the FC-31 a "Chinese knockoff" when that latest FT-X-fan art looks even more like a smaller F-22-clone.

    Indeed funny.
    ...

    He was my North, my South, my East and West,
    My working week and my Sunday rest,
    My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
    I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

    The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
    Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
    Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
    For nothing now can ever come to any good.
    -------------------------------------------------
    W.H.Auden (1945)

  17. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar
    Would you purchase a fighter produced to NATO STAGNAGS with BaE Systems and Rolls Royce technological input or a Chinese knockoff when they are the same price?
    The FC-31 is a knockoff? Of what?

    BTW, the TF-X will most likely never have reached series.. and if, at all, then 13 years later and at double price tag of the FC-31..

    edit: Deino beat me this time

  18. #108
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    Oh believe me the TF-X will fly. President Erdogan's Presidency depends on this single project.

    BAE Systems and Rolls Royce also decided against rejecting billions of dollars from Turkey for the TF-X program- signing a contract with Turkish Aerospace Industries this year for joint-development and full-technology transfer.

    BAE Systems and Rolls Royce need new markets post-Brexit. Especially in light of the fact that the UK will no longer have a Customs Union with the European Union.

    What is interesting though is the fact that the British Government signed the TF-X deal with Turkey on the express condition that the UK could use the technology developed jointly for the TF-X in its own programs. So the Brits must be thinking of a new air superiority fighter independent of the EU.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by Bayar; 5th May 2017 at 06:00.

  19. #109
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    This is an official rendition released by Turkish Aerospace Industries. A full model will be displayed this week at IDEF 2017.
    P.S. That is not a roundel but a stamp for marketing purposes.

  20. #110
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    Bayar, I agree that there is more to this than meets the eye. The project confuses a lot of commentators here, but I am hopeful that it will be a genuinely advanced design rather than a mini F22.
    Last edited by mrmalaya; 5th May 2017 at 10:22.

  21. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar
    Oh believe me the TF-X will fly. President Erdogan's Presidency depends on this single project.
    ???? I don't think I understand now..

    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar
    BAE Systems and Rolls Royce also decided against rejecting billions of dollars from Turkey for the TF-X program- signing a contract with Turkish Aerospace Industries this year for joint-development and full-technology transfer.

    BAE Systems and Rolls Royce need new markets post-Brexit. Especially in light of the fact that the UK will no longer have a Customs Union with the European Union.

    What is interesting though is the fact that the British Government signed the TF-X deal with Turkey on the express condition that the UK could use the technology developed jointly for the TF-X in its own programs. So the Brits must be thinking of a new air superiority fighter independent of the EU.
    OK, I'll bite... the critical half of this bird shall be British-designed, I get it.. but what makes you think that this thing will cost anywhere near the same as the FC-31 is beyond me.. the propulsion alone will cost ~3-4x as much as a twin-pack of Klimov RD-33MKs or WS-13As.
    Last edited by MSphere; 5th May 2017 at 09:17.

  22. #112
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    How do I explain the politics of this....President Erdogan's election campaign centred on the development of a National Defence Industry. Throughout his campaign he promised the Turkish people that he will reduce dependence on defence imports in every sphere and that Turkey would have its own fighter program before 2023. So far he has fulfilled all his promises from Armed UAV's, Attack Helicopters, Smart munitions (A2A, A2G, S2S etc), Altay MBT, Corvette's/Frigates, Strategic radar systems etc. One area that Turkey is lacking in is the combat aircraft.

    As for the TF-X costing near the same as the FC-31, I'd like to state the following...


    Many engineers working for the Turkish Armed Forces are expat "conscripts" who have returned home from abroad (mostly the US) for their military service. These guys have graduated from top US universities such as Harvard, MIT, Stanford etc and obtained employment at US Defence giants. Most are post-doctorial fellows. They come to Turkey to do their military service as Engineers, Scientists etc. The ones that perform well are then offered 1.5 times their salary that they get in the US and a full-time position with bonus structures etc as an incentive to stay back. This is the Erdogan Government policy- they have called it the "Reverse brain drain".

    The Turkish Navy's Shipyard is mostly composed of these "conscript" individuals.

    The above explains the labour factor. Then you have cheap material costs. Add to this an already established aerospace industry due to licenced production of advanced platforms and you can understand why Turkey does not need large capital outlays.

  23. #113
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    Has turkey chosen the radar and engine for this project?and by the way Bayer,that rendition of the tf-x sure looks more stealth than the Pakfa. It shows that the artist is better than the imbeciles at sukhoi whose design is more or less on par with the rafale.i learnt all this at f-16.net

  24. #114
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    Oh believe me the TF-X will fly. President Erdogan's Presidency depends on this single project.

    BAE Systems and Rolls Royce also decided against rejecting billions of dollars from Turkey for the TF-X program- signing a contract with Turkish Aerospace Industries this year for joint-development and full-technology transfer.

    BAE Systems and Rolls Royce need new markets post-Brexit. Especially in light of the fact that the UK will no longer have a Customs Union with the European Union.

    What is interesting though is the fact that the British Government signed the TF-X deal with Turkey on the express condition that the UK could use the technology developed jointly for the TF-X in its own programs. So the Brits must be thinking of a new air superiority fighter independent of the EU.
    Pardon, but such posts do have for my taste too much nationalism in between the lines and given Your next post:

    How do I explain the politics of this....President Erdogan's election campaign centred on the development of a National Defence Industry. Throughout his campaign he promised the Turkish people that he will reduce dependence on defence imports in every sphere and that Turkey would have its own fighter program before 2023. So far he has fulfilled all his promises from Armed UAV's, Attack Helicopters, Smart munitions (A2A, A2G, S2S etc), Altay MBT, Corvette's/Frigates, Strategic radar systems etc. One area that Turkey is lacking in is the combat aircraft.
    I even more hope that project will fail. By the way I'm convinced that a political system based on suppression and single-sided focusing on military developments will lead nowhere or at least nowhere good.

    Deino
    ...

    He was my North, my South, my East and West,
    My working week and my Sunday rest,
    My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
    I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

    The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
    Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
    Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
    For nothing now can ever come to any good.
    -------------------------------------------------
    W.H.Auden (1945)

  25. #115
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    Christopher CLARKSON of BAE Systems is lead engineer of the TF-X program together with an unnamed Turkish Engineer who previously worked in the US at NASA.

    The AESA Radar is being developed by ASELSAN. There are several prototypes and this will be displayed at IDEF 2017 fair. A derivative will be retrofitted to Turkish F-16's soon. Integrated EW Pods, Targeting & Navigation Pods, IRIST etc are also being developed by ASELSAN.

    The engines will be an up-rated further developed derivative of the EJ-200. Rolls Royce will transfer intellectual property to TUSAS Engine Industries as part of the deal.

  26. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deino
    By the way I'm convinced that a political system based on suppression and single-sided focusing on military developments will lead nowhere or at least nowhere good.
    Can't agree more.. Let's focus the whole high-tech industry and all the brains in the country to co-develop a fighter which will then transform in 60-100 hangar queens sitting on the airfield creating absolutely no value, whatsoever.. a brilliant way to completely ruin your economy..

    .. and speaking about export prospects, I will believe that Turkey is able to sell a $140mil stealth fighter when I see those T129 ATAKs being churned out like hot cakes for the whole Middle East, Central Asia and Latin America.
    Last edited by MSphere; 5th May 2017 at 14:46.

  27. #117
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    Turkey is about to sign a multi-billion dollar arms export deal with Saudi Arabia. http://www.defensenews.com/articles/...di-export-deal

    As for Turkey ruining its economy with the TF-X? Not likely. Turkey is a G20 member with a GDP (PPP) of $1.6 trillion. It already has a need for 250 fighters in addition to the 100 F-35 it is purchasing to make up its usual numbers. The TuAF combat aircraft inventory usually is 400 fighters. If Turkey allocates $4 billion/yr for the next 10 years this would mean $40 billion for the program. Hardly ruining its economy or starving its people.
    Last edited by Bayar; 5th May 2017 at 18:17.

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    How do I explain the politics of this....President Erdogan's election campaign centred on the development of a National Defence Industry. Throughout his campaign he promised the Turkish people that he will reduce dependence on defence imports in every sphere and that Turkey would have its own fighter program before 2023. So far he has fulfilled all his promises from Armed UAV's, Attack Helicopters, Smart munitions (A2A, A2G, S2S etc), Altay MBT, Corvette's/Frigates, Strategic radar systems etc. One area that Turkey is lacking in is the combat aircraft.
    Erdogan may have started many projects but i doubt it can finish it operationally. how many armed UAVs built and what is there payload/range/speed/sortie rate to battlefiled. what kind of runway they need. we have seen the condtion of current Armour in Syria barely can stand 1960s era ATGMs. meaning Turkey simply not have indigenous tech to upgrade foreign tanks let alone develop some thing competitive from ground up.
    As for the TF-X costing near the same as the FC-31, I'd like to state the following...


    Many engineers working for the Turkish Armed Forces are expat "conscripts" who have returned home from abroad (mostly the US) for their military service. These guys have graduated from top US universities such as Harvard, MIT, Stanford etc and obtained employment at US Defence giants. Most are post-doctorial fellows. They come to Turkey to do their military service as Engineers, Scientists etc. The ones that perform well are then offered 1.5 times their salary that they get in the US and a full-time position with bonus structures etc as an incentive to stay back. This is the Erdogan Government policy- they have called it the "Reverse brain drain".

    The Turkish Navy's Shipyard is mostly composed of these "conscript" individuals.

    The above explains the labour factor. Then you have cheap material costs. Add to this an already established aerospace industry due to licenced production of advanced platforms and you can understand why Turkey does not need large capital outlays
    the days of cheaper EJ200 are coming to close as EF2000 producting wind down. there is no uprated variant.
    All those MIT/Stanford/Harvard produce talking heads. they cannot produce anything without Asian supply chain both in software and hardware. since Turkey is not part of Asian suppply chain. it is highly unlikey it can built anything of substance in quantity and technology based on the labor it is utilizing.

  29. #119
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    4,368
    Originally Posted by Bayar
    Turkey is about to sign a multi-billion dollar arms export deal with Saudi Arabia. http://www.defensenews.com/articles/...di-export-deal
    you have to be skeptical about these so called billion dollars deals in Middleast. Wars and low oil prices in Middleast has crippled the economics and practical procurement of weopons is now slow implementation.
    Chinese taking there place in financing corporate EU.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/business-39788959
    China's HNA becomes Deutsche Bank's biggest shareholder
    As for Turkey ruining its economy with the TF-X? Not likely. Turkey is a G20 member with a GDP (PPP) of $1.6 trillion. It already has a need for 250 fighters in addition to the 100 F-35 it is purchasing to make up its usual numbers. The TuAF combat aircraft inventory usually is 400 fighters. If Turkey allocates $4 billion/yr for the next 10 years this would mean $40 billion for the program. Hardly ruining its economy or starving its people
    that 400 combat inventory was built at cheaper times with various financial support due to Turkey role in 1991 Gulfwar and practically obsolete aircraft in modern combat sense. dont believe on those GDP or G20 numbers.

  30. #120
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    213
    thanks for the reply Bayer but to be honest it sounds like another Tejas saga in the making.

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