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Thread: Turkish aerospace

  1. #31
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    A single engine design like the top also has some upper hand vs what you are suggesting,
    such as lighter weight & less drag to stay airborne for a while,
    it is not a done deal that heavier & more thrust = longer loiter time,
    and it is also not a done deal that more thrust = better acceleration,
    when other aspects are not equal.
    Gripen E out-ranges EF for as long as A2A loadout goes,
    and out accelerate F-35 with A2A, while being half weight & thrust vs both.
    It comes down to what the primary role for the fighter is,
    and given that they already signed up for F-35, -the best tactical around striker for the foreseeable future,
    it is safe to say the primary role for this fighter is exactly that, a fighter

  2. #32
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    I think that for modern a2a u need good acceleration, nose pointing authority.

    I think turkey would be happy with 2bvr and 2 wvr load. That should not be too much to ask for a single epe engine.

    However, my gut feeling would be a single f100 /135 class engine.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by PLA-MKII View Post
    I think that for modern a2a u need good acceleration, nose pointing authority.

    I think turkey would be happy with 2bvr and 2 wvr load. That should not be too much to ask for a single epe engine.

    However, my gut feeling would be a single f100 /135 class engine.
    Well acceleration is when your going in a knife fight in WVR or trying to climb then go down and get your kill. the Super Hornet, F-22 and Sukhoi fighters have the best nose point ability in WVR and air superiority.

    Well don't know about the F-35 in WVR and BVR. But the F-35 is nowhere near these aircrafts nose point ability.

  4. #34
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    You can run three F125-400 engines for the cost of one F135. Small diameter engines already have fadec controls and superior spool up times versus larger engines. You could probably tune the exhaust for Low Emmisions easier with the three smaller engines, too. The F-117A beaver tail exhaust difuser scheme was under appreciated and would be ideal. All moving stabs and canards, which can double as air brakes. Underbody intakes to allow unsophisticated split s-ducting. Gripen NG's inline canard layout. Streamlined stores. Keep it simple. Focus on affordability.
    Go Huskers!

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadRat View Post
    You can run three F125-400 engines for the cost of one F135. Small diameter engines already have fadec controls and superior spool up times versus larger engines. You could probably tune the exhaust for Low Emmisions easier with the three smaller engines, too. The F-117A beaver tail exhaust difuser scheme was under appreciated and would be ideal. All moving stabs and canards, which can double as air brakes. Underbody intakes to allow unsophisticated split s-ducting. Gripen NG's inline canard layout. Streamlined stores. Keep it simple. Focus on affordability.
    Ok but no canards. Much more difficult to write the code than aft tail design.

    Also small does not means cheap. Bulky electronics are more easy to upgrade than smaller/lighter ones. But I guess Turks know tht after years of Phantom's upgrades
    Last edited by TomcatViP; 9th June 2013 at 18:25.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomcatViP View Post
    Ok but no canards. Much more difficult to write the code than aft tail design.

    Also small does not means cheap. Bulky electronics are more easy to upgrade than smaller/lighter ones. But I guess Turks know tht after years of Phantom's upgrades
    Single engine means less weight, less fuel consumption, less crap to have to fix or work around to fix something.

    At the F-106 sight, the boys who worked on both Sixes and Phantoms said the Six was a walk in the park, the Phantom a nasty nightmare.

  7. #37
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    Different designs by different teams. Convair always was focused on maintenance whereas the guys that bought them out were more inclined to marketing. Marketing makes better profits.
    Go Huskers!

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by F-18Growler View Post
    Well acceleration is when your going in a knife fight in WVR or trying to climb then go down and get your kill. the Super Hornet, F-22 and Sukhoi fighters have the best nose point ability in WVR and air superiority.

    Well don't know about the F-35 in WVR and BVR. But the F-35 is nowhere near these aircrafts nose point ability.
    Hi F18, true but the jsf still has good ITR (I.e. nose pointing authority). The problem with the jsf and jf17 is that they may have good nose pointing ability but they aren't the best in terms of kinematics. For the jsf this is because of a very draggy airframe, while the jf17 because of a relative lack of power and multirole aerodynamic choices.

    The turks however are looking for an a2a platform so their solution will be most interesting to watch.

  9. #39
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    I'm not sure an inability to carry 2000lb-class munitions internally is as big a deal as is often supposed. Smaller bays can still carry a wide variety of munitions, whilst on the other side of the coin there are many munitions that F-35 can't carry internally either! Undoubtedly it is better to have the capability to carry 2000lb-class munitions than not have it, but it seems to me that this is an area where trade-offs could readily be made in the interests of overall system performance.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by PLA-MKII View Post
    Hi F18, true but the jsf still has good ITR (I.e. nose pointing authority). The problem with the jsf and jf17 is that they may have good nose pointing ability but they aren't the best in terms of kinematics. For the jsf this is because of a very draggy airframe, while the jf17 because of a relative lack of power and multirole aerodynamic choices.

    The turks however are looking for an a2a platform so their solution will be most interesting to watch.
    Yes, correct about kinematics they may not be the best performers out there, you also forgot to mention about SH being draggy also. But SH with CFTs should work while not being draggy while adding lift and same goes to the F-35 it may have CFTs around 2030? So it can't be very draggy and produce more range than what it has.

  11. #41
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    Turkish aerospace

    Lockheed Martin has teamed up with Turkish Defense giant Roketsan to adapt the laters SOM stand-off missile onto the F-35

    http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/new...-new-f-35.html


  12. #42
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    TAI Hurkus-C Close Air Support (CAS) aircraft to enter service

    TAI AIMS TO DELIVER ARMED HÜRKUŞ-C TO THE TURKISH FORCES IN 2017
    http://quwa.org/2017/01/18/tai-aims-...orces-in-2017/

    As per local Turkish media (e.g. Millyet), Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) aims to deliver the Hürkuş-C close air support (CAS) aircraft to the Turkish Armed Forces (TSK) in 2017.

    The Hürkuş-C is the weaponized variant of the Hürkuş turboprop-powered training platform, which first flew in August 2013. TAI is positioning the Hürkuş as a replacement for legacy basic jet trainers such as the Cessna T-37 Tweet. The Hürkuş’ civilian version, Hürkuş-A, also achieved European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) certification in July 2016.

    Turkish Defence Minister Fikri Işık and the Undersecretary of Defence Industries (SSM) Ismail Demir visited TAI to oversee the manufacturing of a Hürkuş-C prototype.

    With a payload of 1,500 kg across seven external hardpoints, the Hürkuş-C will be armed with Roketsan’s UMTAS anti-tank guided missile and Cirit 70 mm laser-guided rocket system. The Hürkuş-C will also be equipped with a tactical data-link system, electro-optical and infrared (EO/IR) system, self-protection system, and an armour reinforced airframe.

    On the grounds of lower operating costs in comparison to the F-16, the TSK will reportedly deploy the Hürkuş-C as part of its counterinsurgency (COIN) efforts. TAI may also market the Hürkuş-C to prospective overseas customers, placing it in direct competition with Embraer and its EMB-314 Super Tucano.

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    Last edited by Bayar; 12th February 2017 at 16:56.

  13. #43
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    Is it going to be equipped with internal machine guns? It would be nice to finally a new CAS aircraft with such armament.

    Cheers,

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Get_It View Post
    Is it going to be equipped with internal machine guns? It would be nice to finally a new CAS aircraft with such armament.

    Cheers,
    The Hurkus-C has an external payload capacity of 1.5 Tons.

    Roketsan of Turkey has developed wing mounted machine gun pods which are integrated into the anti-armour weapons mounts directly under the winglets. Thus, the Hurkus-C has 2 wing mounted machine gun pods. The rationale for this was the quicker reload time with external mounted POD's.

    The Hurkus-C is designed more as an anti-armour (both light and heavy armour) aerial platform. It can carry Advanced Targeting and Navigation Pods together with fire-and-forgot ATGMs.

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    Last edited by Bayar; 13th February 2017 at 01:32.

  15. #45
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    Does the EO/IR turret have a laser designator which will allow Hurkus-C to use Cirit missiles?

  17. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by djcross View Post
    Does the EO/IR turret have a laser designator which will allow Hurkus-C to use Cirit missiles?
    Yes. The Hurkus-C uses the ASELSAN ASELFLIR-300T Electro-Optical Reconnaissance, Surveillance and Targeting System: See http://www.aselsan.com.tr/en-us/capa...rgeting-system

    The ASELFLIR300T consists of:

    High Resolution Infrared Camera
    Laser Range Finder/ Designator (LRF/D)
    Laser Spot Tracker
    Color Day TV Camera
    Spotter TV Camera.

    Laser Range Finder and Target Designator:
    Range: up to 20 km
    Wavelength: 1064 nm
    Repetition rate: up to 20 Hz

    Laser Pointer- Wavelength: NIR
    Laser Spot Tracker- Wavelength: 1064 nm




    However, in addition to this as the Hurkus-C will have advanced data-links and network centricity- one aircraft in a squadron of Hurkus-C's can carry an ASELPOD Advanced Targeting Pod Electro-Optical Reconnaissance, Surveillance and Targeting System and the remaining aircraft can obtain target data from this single aircraft. Alternatively, F-16's providing escort roles to the Hurkus-C and/or AWACS aircraft can provide target data to the Hurkus-C's.

    The Hurkus-C will provide a cheaper aerial platform for asymmetric warfare.
    Last edited by Bayar; 13th February 2017 at 04:24.

  18. #48
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    impressive light bird. The short span tick wing makes for it perfectly (see the slow speed pull-up after the barrel-roll).

    However two things strikes me:
    - with 560+kph max speed clean, the carriage of an under-slung bulky turret will slow the plane down to the 450 range clean what could prove impractical. Wouldn't it be more wise to pair this twin seat connected aircraft with a drone?
    - Forget the F16 escorts. If you launch some Viper, they will be better at taking any sort of targets than wait for the Hurkus to do so...

    It's the same problem with all the 1500shp coin aircraft: the time when strafing was enough for most of the case involved are gone. The Pucara did proved even long ago that you need much more power and fuel to really do COIN.

    I remember seeing the A29 seating exposed vulnerable in Colombia since they did not have the range*payload *speed to be meaningful while being safely based out of disputed area. You can't expect too much with so few power. If you look at the Tern concept, you can see that ~5000SHP has become the norm with range in hundred of nautical miles .

    Anyway, still an impressive declination of the concept.
    Last edited by TomcatViP; 13th February 2017 at 07:06.

  19. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomcatViP View Post
    impressive light bird. The short span tick wing makes for it perfectly (see the slow speed pull-up after the barrel-roll).

    However two things strikes me:
    - with 560+kph max speed clean, the carriage of an under-slung bulky turret will slow the plane down to the 450 range clean what could prove impractical. Wouldn't it be more wise to pair this twin seat connected aircraft with a drone?
    - Forget the F16 escorts. If you launch some Viper, they will be better at taking any sort of targets than wait for the Hurkus to do so...

    It's the same problem with all the 1500shp coin aircraft: the time when strafing was enough for most of the case involved are gone. The Pucara did proved even long ago that you need much more power and fuel to really do COIN.

    I remember seeing the A29 seating exposed vulnerable in Colombia since they did not have the range*payload *speed to be meaningful while being safely based out of disputed area. You can't expect too much with so few power. If you look at the Tern concept, you can see that ~5000SHP has become the norm with range in hundred of nautical miles .

    Anyway, still an impressive declination of the concept.
    The Hurkus-C is also integrated with the TAI ANKA UAV platforms which have the ASELFLIR-300T, Synthetic Aperture Radar and Satellite uplink. The beauty of network centricity.



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  20. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomcatViP View Post
    I remember seeing the A29 seating exposed vulnerable in Colombia since they did not have the range*payload *speed to be meaningful while being safely based out of disputed area. You can't expect too much with so few power. If you look at the Tern concept, you can see that ~5000SHP has become the norm with range in hundred of nautical miles .
    Where did you get that idea?!

    The Super Tucano with the colours of the Colombian Air Force is nothing short of a massive and spetacular sucess. The Colombian Air Force is quite publicly pleased (thats an understatement).

  21. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sintra View Post
    Where did you get that idea?!

    The Super Tucano with the colours of the Colombian Air Force is nothing short of a massive and spetacular sucess. The Colombian Air Force is quite publicly pleased (thats an understatement).
    That the CAF is pleased with what they have is one thing. Still the close-in basing wouldn't have supported any other kind of fight. I wrote it earlier but the inherent performance of this kind of plane lead to a de-facto balance b/w forces: no massive raids, no retaliation or base attacks.
    In Colombia, a large country with still vast inhabited zone without much infrastructure, a long range strike using Tucano leads to anything short of a meaningful payload, ridiculous time on station and vast delays in a TiC context. Please, refer to the plane own set of performances.
    Last edited by TomcatViP; 13th February 2017 at 18:17.

  22. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomcatViP View Post
    That the CAF is pleased with what they have is one thing. Still the close-in basing wouldn't have supported any other kind of fight. I wrote it earlier but the inherent performance of this kind of plane lead to a de-facto balance b/w forces: no massive raids, no retaliation or base attacks.
    In Colombia, a large country with still vast inhabited zone without much infrastructure, a long range strike using Tucano leads to anything short of a meaningful payload, ridiculous time on station and vast delays in a TiC context. Please, refer to the plane own set of performances.
    These type of aircraft are used against asymmetric threats primarily (well at least in Turkey's case). One would note that the Turkish Land Forces will be commissioning these aircraft not the Turkish Air Force. They are also great tank busters and excellent against border security. Cheaper running costs too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar View Post
    These type of aircraft are used against asymmetric threats primarily (well at least in Turkey's case). One would note that the Turkish Land Forces will be commissioning these aircraft not the Turkish Air Force. They are also great tank busters and excellent against border security. Cheaper running costs too.
    So, we'll have to consider their performances in comparison with attack helos, not jets.

  25. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcellogo View Post
    So, we'll have to consider their performances in comparison with attack helos, not jets.
    We cannot deny that they will take some load off TuAF F-16's when used in the anti-terror/asymmetric threat/border patrol/coast guard roles.

    As a side note I think this is the first time winglets have been incorporated into a combat aircraft.

    The Turkish Army by commissioning 100 of these will significant increase their anti-armour capabilities.
    Last edited by Bayar; 17th February 2017 at 07:38.

  26. #56
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    TURKISH AEROSPACE INDUSTRIES REVEALS HÜRKUŞ-C CLOSE AIR SUPPORT AIRCRAFT
    http://quwa.org/2017/02/17/turkish-a...port-aircraft/

    Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) and Turkey’s Ministry of Defence (MoD) have revealed the prototype of the Hürkuş-C close air support (CAS) and lightweight attack aircraft.

    The Hürkuş-C is the armed variant of the Hürkuş turboprop-powered trainer, which flew in August 2013. TAI secured European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) certification for the Hürkuş-A in July 2016, the civilian version of the Hürkuş platform.

    As per the Turkish defence ministry, the Turkish Armed Forces (TSK) will have the Hürkuş-C in its inventory in 2018. Like its competitors, such as the Embraer A-29 Super Tucano and IOMAX Archangel, the Hürkuş-C is positioned to provide CAS coverage in low-intensity combat environments.

    The Hürkuş platform is powered by a single Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6A-68T turboprop engine, which provides a power-rating of 1,600 shp and maximum speed of 574 km/h. TAI is aiming to supplant the PT6 with the domestically developed TUSAŞ Engine Industries (TEI)’s turboshaft engine.

    The Hürkuş-C has a payload of 1,500 kg, which can be utilized through seven external hardpoints.

    In the photos released by the Turkish MoD and TAI, the Hürkuş-C prototype was showcased with the Roketsan UMTAS anti-tank guided missile (ATGM), Roketsan Cirit laser-guided rockets, an electro-optical and infrared (EO/IR) pod (likely the Aselsan Common Aperture Targeting System or CATS), and external fuel tank.

    Notes & Comments:

    The TSK’s apparent interest in the Hürkuş-C indicates that it is confident in using lightweight turboprop-powered attack aircraft in counterinsurgency (COIN) environments. This has been an increasingly common trend among air arms, especially in the developing world (i.e. Latin America and Sub-Saharan Africa). The U.S. Air Force is also examining the utility of these platforms for its own CAS requirements.

    The main rationale for using Hürkuş-C-like platforms stems from the desire to lower the cost of air power, especially in low-intensity combat theatres where anti-air warfare threats are minimal, if not a non-factor.

    In these areas, flying a fast-jet such as the Lockheed Martin F-16 could cost tens of thousand dollars per sortie (at minimum) to deliver precision-guided munitions. Those same munitions could be deployed from a Hürkuş-C-like aircraft for a markedly per-sortie cost of several thousand dollars, if not lower.

    Commercially, the Hürkuş-C is vertically linked to the Turkish defence industry. The aircraft is supplied by TAI. Aselsan is likely providing the EO/IR solution via its CATS system, which can laser-designate targets at up to 25 km (to guide the UMTAS ATGM and Cirit rockets), and avionics. Roketsan is supplying the air-to-ground munitions. In time, the PT6A turboprop will be replaced by TEI’s engine.

    In effect, Ankara has control over the Hürkuş-C, which should give it considerable flexibility in marketing the product, albeit in a saturated space (with the A-29 as the market leader).
    ...

  27. #57
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    Turkey introduces indigenous engine program for T-129, T625 & Hurkus

    TURKEY COMMISSIONS DEVELOPMENT OF INDIGENOUS TURBOSHAFT ENGINE
    http://quwa.org/2017/02/12/turkey-co...oshaft-engine/

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    The Turkish Undersecretariat for Defence Industries (SSM) has awarded TUSAŞ Engine Industries (TEI) a contract to develop a turboshaft engine for the Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) T-625 utility helicopter.

    The TEI turboshaft signing ceremony was attended by the head of the SSM, Dr. İsmail Demir, TEI’s General Manager Dr. Mahmut F. Akşit and other dignitaries.

    As per the Hurriyet, TEI is to design and develop gas turbines and a 1,400 shp turboshaft engine over eight years. In addition to the TAI T-625 helicopter, the TEI turboshaft will also power the TAI T-129 ATAK attack helicopter and TAI Hürkuş turboprop-powered trainer and light combat aircraft.

    Notes & Comments:

    Turkey had been studying the development of turboshaft engines for some years, with TEI itself setting a 20-year roadmap for domestic turboshaft and turbofan development. The latter will equip the TAI TFX next-generation fighter.

    With an output of 1,400 shp, the TEI turboshaft should have a power rating similar to the T-129 ATAK’s current engine, the Light Helicopter Turbine Engine Company (LHTEC) T800, which was jointly developed by Rolls-Royce and Honeywell. Initially, the TAI T-625 will also be powered by the T800.

    Indigenization of critical technologies will serve a core aspect of Turkey’s long-term strategy of becoming a leading defence and aerospace exporter. Currently, Turkey depends on foreign turboshaft designs, such as the General Electric T700, which require it to secure licenses and approval for exports. Securing licenses for certain customers, such as Pakistan, had been an issue of concern. In the long-term, the availability of the TEI turboshaft should rectify this issue.

    Turboshaft development is costly, but TAI and TEI benefit from a domestic market, which will ensure launch orders and provide initial scale to distribute the development cost. However, the Turkish industry will benefit from actual control over its products, which will open it to a wider addressable market. It could also market the engine as a stand-alone product to overseas helicopter manufacturers.

    Turkey will be using this turboshaft design for the long-term, during which it will continue developing the platform and producing it for many different applications.
    Turkey within2 years can export the T-129 Attack Helicopter, T-625 Utility Helicopter and Hurkus-C without third-party export approvals or end-user certificates meaning that there will be a sizeable Middle East market for Turkish Aerospace Industries as Western suppliers would not sell Advanced platforms such as these to countries like Pakistan etc.

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    I think there's enough interest and material out there to make a dedicated Turkish aviation news thread. what do you think?

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    Hmmm.. It's obvious that Turkey have decided to invest a lot into these things.. Except I am still concerned about the outcome. It's like "hey, let's spend a zillion developing this cool domestic HUD, this cool indigenous IFF system, this cool engine, this cool FLIR pod and even this cool TP trainer", only to be produced in say ~70 examples used by THK, 16 by Pakistan and another 12 in Azerbaijan.. I can't imagine that such series runs can ever pay back the immense cost involved..

    Soo.. it's interesting and I am truly keeping my fingers crossed, but I am not holding my breath..

  30. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere View Post
    Hmmm.. It's obvious that Turkey have decided to invest a lot into these things.. Except I am still concerned about the outcome. It's like "hey, let's spend a zillion developing this cool domestic HUD, this cool indigenous IFF system, this cool engine, this cool FLIR pod and even this cool TP trainer", only to be produced in say ~70 examples used by THK, 16 by Pakistan and another 12 in Azerbaijan.. I can't imagine that such series runs can ever pay back the immense cost involved..

    Soo.. it's interesting and I am truly keeping my fingers crossed, but I am not holding my breath..
    Whilst Turkey is investing in these sub-systems and engines they are all being used in indigenous platforms. The T-129 Atak, T625 Utility Helicopter and the Hurkus Trainer and Coin aircraft all have export potential. All these systems are built to NATO STAGNAGs but do not come with export restrictions. They also cost a fraction of the cost of European and US equivalents. This makes these platforms lucrative investments for Turkic and Arab States. E.g. The US would never export a Reaper to Arab States. Yet Turkey can offer a comparable UCAV system to these countries without export restriction hurdles.

    Above all this, when the development costs are compared with the off-the-shelf purchase of similar platforms Turkey still receives significant cost savings by commissioning indigenous products.

    The geopolitical dimension of having an indigenous arms industry also cannot be underestimated.

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