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Thread: Turkish aerospace

  1. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halo
    What are Turkey's chances of pulling it all off?
    There are massive amounts of defence project for a country that has economy the size of Netherlands/ less than 2/3 of Russia, seriously corrupt (ITTO ranking 75th place!) and with a relatively low ratings in innovation. The country is sliding into Islamic dictatorship that would in the longer run seriously endanger economic growth as well as access to western technology. A more autocratic country can usually diverge a higher portion of GDP to defence but even so... can Turkey really manage to run all these projects?
    In short, no.. the only possibility to pull it off is that Gulf States use Turkey as their work bench to get access to technologies they can't buy directly.. especially AESA, stealth, long-range PGMs and similar stuff.. that would mean rather heavy financial subsidization from third parties and serious export deals in billions. Turkey definitely can't hold it by making all these things just for themselves.

  2. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere View Post
    In short, no.. the only possibility to pull it off is that Gulf States use Turkey as their work bench to get access to technologies they can't buy directly.. especially AESA, stealth, long-range PGMs and similar stuff.. that would mean rather heavy financial subsidization from third parties and serious export deals in billions. Turkey definitely can't hold it by making all these things just for themselves.
    The reality is that the majority of these projects have been realised and are actively being used by the Turkish Armed Forces. The Turkish Defence Industry has a catalog of over 150 defence products. The TF-X is merely one of them who is yet to be realised.

    Turkey already uses Turkish produced Corvettes/Frigates, Precision Strike Munitions, Satellites, COIN aircraft, MALE class UAV's, Attack helicopters, Rifles, APC's, upgraded MBT's, Optics, Radars, GaN T/R modules etc This in and of itself shows that it is a maturing industry.

    If Turkey merely exports these items to the Islamic Millitary Alliance Against Terrorism, Turkic States, Gulf States etc it has enough revenue to sustain its industrial growth and finance other high tech programs like the TF-X

  3. #273
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    [MSphere] Let's be honest here, the APG-68(V)9 is a common standard, basically a classic APG-68 with added SAR capability.. It's not primarily about being obsolete or not, but, as any APG-68, the (V)9 is seriously limited in size.. ~100 km detection and ~75-80 km tracking against a 5sqm RCS target, that's a substandard performance value, by all means.
    You are ignoring the Turkish AWECS and there role in the augmentation of the detection and tracking ranges of the Turkish Vipers. The Turkish Air Force gives critical importance to Network Centricity and nearly every asset in the Turkish Armed Forces is integrated with data-links.

  4. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar
    The reality is that the majority of these projects have been realised and are actively being used by the Turkish Armed Forces. The Turkish Defence Industry has a catalog of over 150 defence products. The TF-X is merely one of them who is yet to be realised.
    I am well aware of it.. But this is exactly what I am talking about.. If you spend $22mil at MKEK just to develop a rifle which then goes into service in mere 5,000 units and then spend $120 mil on 50 Ejders, another $100mil on few hundred Kirpi BMCs, next $50mil on few dozens of HGK guidance kits, etc., then you are basically subsidizing your industry at the cost of armed forces which are getting everything domestic at triple market prices.. That can't be sustained on a long run.. Turkey needs to start exporting far more than a dozen Ejder 6x6 to Georgia here and few BMCs to Pakistan there..

    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar
    Turkey already uses Turkish produced Corvettes/Frigates, Precision Strike Munitions, Satellites, COIN aircraft, MALE class UAV's, Attack helicopters, Rifles, APC's, upgraded MBT's, Optics, Radars, GaN T/R modules etc This in and of itself shows that it is a maturing industry
    You're mentally masturbating on what everything Turkey can make or have so bad that you're completely forgetting the most important thing - numbers.. 8 Ada class frigates, that's just primary school.. Making something is a very good start, but if you can't sell it, then you have not won that much..

    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar
    If Turkey merely exports these items to the Islamic Millitary Alliance Against Terrorism, Turkic States, Gulf States etc it has enough revenue to sustain its industrial growth and finance other high tech programs like the TF-X
    Yes, but that's a big IF. Turkic states, that's in fact only Azeris.. Kazakhstan is out of your selling league (Russians/EACU) and Kyrgyzstan is hardly worth a mention. IMA is seemingly an impressive list, at first glance but their buying power is often close to zero and thus prone to whatever the Chinese have to offer. As said, you either win the hearts and money of the Gulf Sheiks to finance your next 150+ projects or you will have crawled back to history sooner or later.. Wishing best of luck..

  5. #275
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    Turkey and the Turkic world also share a common language, culture and religion. They view each other as "many countries one people". Yes, Turkey may not directly engage the enemies of the Turkic world but it would not shy away from donating high-tech weapons to them and provide training in order to repel any enemy.

    All this brings me to the next reason: Russia-China-Turkey are creating a new economic Union- dubbed the "Silk Road Economic Belt" that stretches from Russia through Turkey, Central Asia to China. Both China and Russia view Turkey as the bridge for this new silk road. Russia and China also want Turkey to use its influence in the Islamic world to bring it within this sphere. This video belows gives us an indication of Ankara-Beijing relations within the frame work of the Belt and Road Initiative.
    So in summary, Turkey may protect or at least deter potential enemies of the Turkic world,
    yet aforementioned enemies are potentially either Russia or China.. directly or indirectly (like via Armenia or Iran).. whom you say is your ally. which is it.

  6. #276
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    MSphere I agree with the majority of the things you state. My only point of disagreement is where the industry is leading to. Turkey has to fund the initial capital outlay so that it can show these markets what it is able to produce. All the countries mentioned above will not purchase Turkish made products unless the Turkish Armed Forces commissions them into its own inventory. We agree that Turkey needs to create export markets or else all this development would be useless. But in order to do this one needs to finance the first 15 years of the industry. Then Turkey needs to look at providing finance for the purchasers of its defence products e.g. EXIM Bank loans etc. Turkey may even need to donate certain platforms and rely on the supply of ordinance for these platforms to generate income. It needs to explore new project models. And Turkish Defence industry is doing this.

  7. #277
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    Y20-Bacon, the biggest threat to Azerbaijan is Iran. Why do you think Turkey has bases in Qatar?

  8. #278
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    Lets stick to 2 engines better than one and stop worrying about whether the Turks are at the Gates of Vienna (or whatever the modern equivalent is here).

    Y20 is just trying to create and sustain his own circular argument and most contributors value the aerospace side of this thread.

  9. #279
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    Turkic states, that's in fact only Azeris.. Kazakhstan is out of your selling league (Russians/EACU) and Kyrgyzstan is hardly worth a mention.
    Uzbekistan & Turkmenistan are also Turkic.
    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
    Justinian

  10. #280
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    On the subject of TFX, this model appears to have a more raised cockpit and a flatter tail than the other model being used:

    Name:  mehmet_GZL_C_Yx8_ONXs_AEVn_Rz.jpg
Views: 630
Size:  132.0 KB

    Is it just the other twin engine design that way being proposed prior to the new deal?

  11. #281
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    This is the mock up of the twin engine version which is currently the selected design.

  12. #282
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    Lets stick to 2 engines better than one and stop worrying about whether the Turks are at the Gates of Vienna (or whatever the modern equivalent is here).

    Y20 is just trying to create and sustain his own circular argument and most contributors value the aerospace side of this thread.
    actually it's just you. if you bothered reading the past pages, you'd notice 3 or 4 other people asking the same things as me.
    strategic goals need to be identified to understand the rationale for two or one engine design. Or do you honestly think people make jets with out considering its purpose.

  13. #283
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    Ok, I understand. The concern is that 2 engines allows the Turkish to reach beyond their own borders (I refer you back to the point about Vienna).

  14. #284
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    Orko_8

    Do you know if that model, which is different to the one used in other PR images, is the one they are going to build (2023 is not that far off) or the general layout which the companies will now work on?

  15. #285
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    sorry nice try at a false equivalence.

    your best friend already said the f-16s got the range to go far, which negates the need for a large 2 engined aircraft.
    everyone else here had some doubts about the strategic need for an aircraft, let alone the economics behind it. fair arguements
    but we know you are boning for a bae stealth jet.

  16. #286
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    You are ignoring the Turkish AWECS and there role in the augmentation of the detection and tracking ranges of the Turkish Vipers. The Turkish Air Force gives critical importance to Network Centricity and nearly every asset in the Turkish Armed Forces is integrated with data-links
    4 medium size AWACS that are deficient in endurace and power simply cant provide coverage to out of area offensive operations. outside the country. you need big AWACS with larger endurance to impact battlefield. your AWACS are in Turkey. they have no bearing on Qatar or even central Irak or Syria.

  17. #287
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    Y-20 ya got me.

    Until I see the British side of things I will keep my mouth shut.

    For what it's worth, Aviation Week think the project is a very serious one, with profound implications for European aerospace. Perhaps the need for a big internal bay dictates the size of the jet/engines required regardless of it's strategic implication.

  18. #288
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    The reality is that the majority of these projects have been realised and are actively being used by the Turkish Armed Forces. The Turkish Defence Industry has a catalog of over 150 defence products. The TF-X is merely one of them who is yet to be realised.

    Turkey already uses Turkish produced Corvettes/Frigates, Precision Strike Munitions, Satellites, COIN aircraft, MALE class UAV's, Attack helicopters, Rifles, APC's, upgraded MBT's, Optics, Radars, GaN T/R modules etc This in and of itself shows that it is a maturing industry.

    If Turkey merely exports these items to the Islamic Millitary Alliance Against Terrorism, Turkic States, Gulf States etc it has enough revenue to sustain its industrial growth and finance other high tech programs like the TF-
    Those turkic and islamic states are more and more depended on Russia and China. I doubt they are interested in Turkish military products which are recycled western technology.

  19. #289
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    TAI TF-X

  20. #290
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    JSR the Northrop Grumman Electronic Systems Multi-role Electronically Scanned Array (MESA) radar on the Turkish B-737 MESA AEWC's is capable of simultaneous air and sea search, fighter control and area search, with a maximum range of over 600 km (look-up mode). When operating in look-down mode against fighter-sized target, the maximum range is in excess of 370 km. When used against maritime targets, the maximum range is over 240 km for frigate-sized targets. In addition, the radar antenna array is also doubled as an ELINT array, with a maximum range of over 850 km at 9,000 meter altitude.

    Turkey also has access to NATO AWACS systems and data in real-time.

    Long-range land based air defence radars must also not be forgotten in a network centric structure.

    The Turkish Armed Forces is probably one of a handful of examples of a fully network centric military- even precision strike weapons have network control.



    Those turkic and islamic states are more and more depended on Russia and China. I doubt they are interested in Turkish military products which are recycled western technology.
    This was because Turkish industry was producing nothing 20 years ago for them to procure. Naturally they opted for Russian and Chinese systems. Over time they would want to procure cheap NATO standard weapons platforms. Turkic States at the end of the day are NATO- Partnership for Peace member States and as such strive to obtain NATO standard technology.

    One must note that Turkish companies are already modernizing/upgrading Russian made platforms in the armed forces of Turkic States with Turkish NATO Standard sub-systems.

    The Turks do not need to sell complete platforms- they can do what the Israeli's do- sell sub-systems.
    Last edited by Bayar; 16th May 2017 at 23:18.

  21. #291
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    Y-20 ya got me.

    Until I see the British side of things I will keep my mouth shut.

    For what it's worth, Aviation Week think the project is a very serious one, with profound implications for European aerospace. Perhaps the need for a big internal bay dictates the size of the jet/engines required regardless of it's strategic implication.
    fair enough. you as a brit, what do you think of UK participation in the Japanese F-3?

    it seems to me either

    - Brits are not putting their eggs in one basket and getting involved in a variety of 5th gen projects and may focus on one, once something better materializes
    and/or

    - just a way to keep British companies involved and up to date

  22. #292
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    This was because Turkish industry was producing nothing 20 years ago for them to procure. Naturally they opted for Russian and Chinese systems. Over time they would want to procure cheap NATO standard weapons platforms. Turkic States at the end of the day are NATO- Partnership for Peace member States and as such strive to obtain NATO standard technology.
    they have nothing to do with Nato or any such standards. these countries are belatedly realizing that opening to Turkey or west will infest them backwardness.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-ww...-idUSKBN18524O
    In nod to Russia, new Uzbek leader revives V-day celebrations
    One must note that Turkish companies are already modernizing/upgrading Russian made platforms in the armed forces of Turkic States with Turkish NATO Standard sub-systems.
    those were high oil/Gas era Russia didnot care that much about small contracts . now with rise of terror threat it need joint training on same systems and intelligence cooperation.
    The Turks do not need to sell complete platforms- they can do what the Israeli's do- sell sub-systems
    Israel is competing with US and western firms most of times at lower price. Isreal cant repeat that past success and neither is EU based firms.
    Chinese have taken there market in unmanned vehicles. Chinese AWACS are also more numeroous for medium size and they have full space technology. Arabs are highly impressed with China and the size of its financial markets.

  23. #293
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    fair enough. you as a brit, what do you think of UK participation in the Japanese F-3?

    it seems to me either

    - Brits are not putting their eggs in one basket and getting involved in a variety of 5th gen projects and may focus on one, once something better materializes
    and/or

    - just a way to keep British companies involved and up to date
    The UK involvement in the Turkish project appears to be more of a consultancy role, following on from SAAB. This isn't unusual since the UK has also played this kind of role on the new Polish tank (PL-01). The Japanese collaboration is perhaps more serious, but then the UK is also partnering France on FCAS but that isn't necessarily a conflict because I think FCAS will be unmanned and F-3 will be manned.

  24. #294
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    in related news
    https://www.euractiv.com/section/enl...es-in-one-day/

    turkish jets violate greek airspace 141 times in one day lol.

  25. #295
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    The dispute arises because Greece claims 10 nautical miles (19 km) of airspace from its mainland, as opposed to the 6 miles of territorial waters it claims from the mainland. Turkey cites the statutes of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) of 1948, as containing a binding definition that both zones must coincide. Thus, Turkey views Greek airspace as being 6nm from its mainland.

    As such everytime a Turkish fighter flies into the 10nm of disputed airspace Greece records a violation.

  26. #296
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    Sorry if this has been already asked but is the Anka UAV ITAR free ? Will Turkey be able to export it without a foreign entity having veto power over sales ?

  27. #297
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    The TAI ANKA is ITAR free as it does not use any foreign technology. The PD170 engine is designed and produced by Turkish Engine Industries. The Avionics, Optics, Flir etc by ASELSAN. Guided Munitions by ROKETSAN. The whole purpose of the Anka program was to be able to export advance MALE class UAV's to allied Arab and Turkic States without third-party approval.

  28. #298
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    Wow, I did not know all the systems were locally developed. Thanks..

  29. #299
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    any news on T129 exports if any?
    i am surprised they didn't attempt to compete with the z10 in Pakistan.

  30. #300
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    The Turkish engine for the T-129 will not be ready until 2018 and Pakistan did not want to obtain US export approval for any T-129 with US LHTEC engines. It remains to be seen whether Pakistan will order the T-129 after 2018 when they use the TEI TS1400 Engines.

    Thus, they opted for the z-10.

    Nevertheless, Turkey just exported 4 MILGEM corvettes to Pakistan: http://www.defenseworld.net/news/193..._Karachi_Ports
    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-tu...-idUSKBN1861YK

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