Key.Aero Network
Register Free

Page 9 of 18 FirstFirst ... 5678910111213 ... LastLast
Results 241 to 270 of 527

Thread: Turkish aerospace

  1. #241
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Cataclysm
    Posts
    8,727
    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar
    Turkish Aerospace Industries in consultation with the Turkish Ministry of Defense have estimated and allocated between $15 to 20 billion for design and development of Aerostructure, Avionics, Radars & Sensors etc excluding engines. The Turkish Ministry of Defence estimates another $10 billion for propulsion system design and development.
    Excluding engines, that clears it.. I've always thought $15-20 bil seemed awfully low for an entire aircraft, incl. propulsion, especially when there are no viable predecessors, like Saturn 117 engine or N035 Irbis radar in the PAK-FA program.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar
    Now with respect to the sub-systems to be used in the TF-X one needs to realize that Turkey is not starting entirely from scratch. Turkish industry has already developed, tested, commissioned and in some case exported (mainly to Pakistan and Jordan) 4th generation combat aircraft sub-systems. These include Advanced targeting and navigation PODS, IRST, Helmet Mounted Cuing Systems, MFD's, Mission Computers, Electronic Warfare Pods and Self-protections suits, Datalink systems, IFF systems, Data-Fusion technologies, Indigenous Weapons systems integration, Composite fuselage production etc. ASELSAN is also nearing the completion and certification of its AESA radar. Turkish Industry merely needs to develop the existing technologies a further generation. It can do this with some level of minimal input from BAE Systems.
    Electronics and ordnance is exactly an area I would not worry too much about.. You can always start with uprated vintage systems and only do a thorough redesign later.. PAK-FA is a good example of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar
    I also do understand that the gap between 4th and 5th generation combat aircraft is great but this does not mean its un-achievable. With the right team, guidance and project model it can be achieved. This is where the expertise of BAE Systems and Rolls-Royce comes into play.
    Well, there is a large gap between producing 4th Gen aircraft and developing a 5th Gen. I guess Turkey can make the avionics right.. They will need a lot of help with the airframe and RCS testing.. and they will need to outsource the complete development of the propulsion system to RR.. Kale will only assemble it together and learn how to make one from scratch.. Then it can work..

  2. #242
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    2,042
    I actually still don't see the justification for a large twin heavy engined stealth fighter. China and US have it because they have a lot of ocean territory and land territory to cover. Russia, definitely a lot of land territory. Turkey's security threats are mostly neighboring countries. Not unless you plan to fly this stealth plane deep into another country (you guys still angry at Russia?)

    As for AMCA, now that the Indians are distancing themselves from Russian companies, maybe Turkey can offer a partnership. But only if you make nicey nicey and promise not to sell to Pakistan. You'll get all that Indian cash.. but on the other hand, you gotta deal with HAL.

  3. #243
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Ankara, Turkey
    Posts
    550
    I, too, am a proponent of a single engine design for the TF-X project, but because of commercial and industrial reasons. On the other hand, selection of a twin engine design is completely understandable given the vast geography of Turkey and her area of interest. You should take into account that the backbone Turkish Air Force is som 200+ single engine F-16's right now.

    The TF-X program will be quite a challenge for Turkish industry though, especially for human resources btw.

  4. #244
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    2,042
    hi orko, are you a friend of bayar?

    yes a single engined one would be more popular for export

    now you say a twin is justified because of how vast turkey is.. but what exactly is it intended for?
    you say bulk is f-16s but you don't find them enough? even Israel used f-16s to bomb Iraq

  5. #245
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    398
    Maintenance and operating costs wise a single engined TF-X would be ideal.

    But Turkey has new zones of interest warranting a twin engine aircraft: Qatar (Strait of Hormoz), Somalia (Horn of Africa), Azerbaijan (Central Asian Turkic Republics), Northern Cyprus (Turkey's sea lines of communication in Mediterranean).

  6. #246
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    213
    in case of conflict can you tell me how this twin engine fighter intends to get to azerbaijan and central asia.you are not even allowed to fly in syria your imidiate neighbour without permission and yet you have ambition to get involved in central asia.you cant even help your azeri friends in a war with armenia in fact you were nowhere to be seen when war started. so i dont see how a twin engine would make a difference with your situation
    Last edited by nkvd; 15th May 2017 at 16:54.

  7. #247
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    New Sarum
    Posts
    4,359
    But if two engines gets the thing built because its of interest to other countries, then two engines it is! Whilst I wait see it in English, if the UK is interested in developing this fighter for its own use, then this is only because it has enough capability to replace Typhoon.

  8. #248
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    3,755
    It's not the notion of twin engines which has me skeptical, but the idea of 70000lbf total installed thrust and associated cost. And as far as range is concerned, I would not be surprised if the F-35 (which Turkey is acquiring anyway) actually out-ranged the F-22 (almost same amount of fuel IIRC in a much lighter airframe with less total thrust and a higher bypass ratio). So if range is a concern, we'd probably be looking at a fighter larger than the Raptor (you have to put that fuel somewhere...).

    You certainly have to give Turkey great credit (especially compared to Russia - my pet peeve) for their military spending efficiency though. I suppose that's one thing they have going for them - they don't spill scarce funding all over the place with complete lack of focus.

  9. #249
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    4,362
    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar View Post
    Maintenance and operating costs wise a single engined TF-X would be ideal.

    But Turkey has new zones of interest warranting a twin engine aircraft: Qatar (Strait of Hormoz), Somalia (Horn of Africa), Azerbaijan (Central Asian Turkic Republics), Northern Cyprus (Turkey's sea lines of communication in Mediterranean).
    How you going to fly to Qatar?. Iran has long range S300 and kh35 that can block Iraqi and gulf airspace for Turkey . I am sure you can't fly over Syria. F16s are need of upgrade and not many are flyable. I am sure with rise of oil and gas production in Irak/Iran there are more export opportunities for advancement Russian weopons . Arabs won't wait 3 decades for Turkey to develop mediocre weopons rather they will buy everything super expensive and quickly from Trump. I think Brits and French will find out soon there export opportunities are decreasing.

  10. #250
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    398
    Turkey has bases in all the countries mentioned above. They also have military agreements in place under which Turkey can station fighter Jets at these countries own bases at short notice. As these bases have been approved by the UN as "training bases" Turkey is not allowed to have permanent aircraft assigned to them however.
    Additionally Turkey has a large supply of Tanker aircraft.

    Turkey has access to Central Asia via Georgia.
    They also have an agreement for air coridor along the entire length of the Baku-Tflisi-Ceyhan pipeline.

    Turkey accesses Qatar via Iraq.
    Last edited by Bayar; 15th May 2017 at 21:30.

  11. #251
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    2,042
    why Azerbaijan?

  12. #252
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    398
    Quote Originally Posted by JSR View Post
    How you going to fly to Qatar?. Iran has long range S300 and kh35 that can block Iraqi and gulf airspace for Turkey . I am sure you can't fly over Syria. F16s are need of upgrade and not many are flyable. I am sure with rise of oil and gas production in Irak/Iran there are more export opportunities for advancement Russian weopons . Arabs won't wait 3 decades for Turkey to develop mediocre weopons rather they will buy everything super expensive and quickly from Trump. I think Brits and French will find out soon there export opportunities are decreasing.
    I dont know where you get your information from but Turkey's F-16's are one of the most advanced in the world. They are all either CCIP modernised Block 40's or Advanced Block 50+ with CFT.
    Turkey's indigenous precision strike weapons also cannot be underestimated during SEAD and DEAD missions. Turkey's Airborne Stand-Off Jammers amd AWECS aircraft also must not be forgotten as they are force multipliers.

  13. #253
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    398
    Quote Originally Posted by Y-20 Bacon View Post
    why Azerbaijan?
    Azerbaijan is Turkic and a member of the Turkic Council. Turkey also has interests in the Shah Deniz Oil fields. Azerbaijan also acts as the gate way to other Turkic States in Central Asia stretching all the way to the Uyghur Autonomous Region in China.

  14. #254
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    2,042
    what security threats does azerbaijan face?

  15. #255
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Cataclysm
    Posts
    8,727
    The eternal conflict with Armenia regd. Nagorno Karabakh

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh

  16. #256
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    2,042
    is Turkey willing to get involved and go against Armenia?

  17. #257
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Cataclysm
    Posts
    8,727
    Nope.. Too much at stake for a direct intervention, Russians have their interests in Armenia (as well as the 102nd military base at Gyumri)..
    But Turks can still supply Azeris with whatever they can think of.. (for instance T129s..)

  18. #258
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    4,362
    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar View Post
    I dont know where you get your information from but Turkey's F-16's are one of the most advanced in the world. They are all either CCIP modernised Block 40's or Advanced Block 50+ with CFT.
    Turkey's indigenous precision strike weapons also cannot be underestimated during SEAD and DEAD missions. Turkey's Airborne Stand-Off Jammers amd AWECS aircraft also must not be forgotten as they are force multipliers.
    Those f16s are early 90s tech . They lack electronic scanning radar and IRST and best operate medium altitude with old engines

  19. #259
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    4,362
    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar View Post
    Turkey has bases in all the countries mentioned above. They also have military agreements in place under which Turkey can station fighter Jets at these countries own bases at short notice. As these bases have been approved by the UN as "training bases" Turkey is not allowed to have permanent aircraft assigned to them however.
    Additionally Turkey has a large supply of Tanker aircraft.

    Turkey has access to Central Asia via Georgia.
    They also have an agreement for air coridor along the entire length of the Baku-Tflisi-Ceyhan pipeline.

    Turkey accesses Qatar via Iraq.
    How is turkey going to access Qatar through Irak. you have big misconception about Georgia pipeline. The only reason that was not bombed in 2008 was because of TNK-BP and BP relationships in Russis at time. It's BP investments . you will find out next time whether it's a real country.

  20. #260
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Cataclysm
    Posts
    8,727
    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar
    dont know where you get your information from but Turkey's F-16's are one of the most advanced in the world. They are all either CCIP modernised Block 40's or Advanced Block 50+ with CFT.
    I have to agree with JSR here, no big deal about those Vipers (except sheer numbers, that is).. Most of them ordered anywhere between 1988 and 1994, even those few dozens Block 50+ from 2007 aren't exactly the latest cry.. Well, at least the APG-68s could use a serious replacement but now given the drift in relations with the US I am not sure if an F-16V upgrade is viable.

  21. #261
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    398
    http://www.defensenews.com/story/def...f-16/25679711/

    The upgrade created a common avionics configuration for the service's fleet of F-16 Block 40 and 50 aircraft. Systems integrated on Turkey's upgraded F-16s include:

    • The AN/APG-69(V)9 radar installed on new F-16 Advanced Block 50/52 aircraft

    • Color cockpit displays

    • The Modular Mission Computer and new avionics processors

    • The Joint Helmet-Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS)

    • The Link 16 datalink

    • New identification-friend-or-foe (IFF) transponders

    • AN/AVS-9 night-vision goggles

    • Upgraded navigation systems; and BAE Systems' AN/ALQ-178(V)5+ electronic-warfare (EW) system, mounted internally, with radar-warning and jamming capabilities for aircraft self-protection

    The aircraft were also modified to accept new missile systems of unspecified types; some potential candidates include the AIM-9X Sidewinder, AIM-120 AMRAAM, and MBDA Meteor.
    240 of these is hardly worthless Junk especially with AWEC's support.

    As for structural upgrades Turkish Aerospace Industries is more than capable of upgrading the aircraft.

    They are all about to get the ASELSAN AESA within 1 to 2 years.







    Last edited by Bayar; 16th May 2017 at 03:26.

  22. #262
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    398
    More details of ASELSAN's Airborne Stand-off Jammer systems have been revealed. The system uses an airborne version of the Aselsan Koral.

    Details on the Aselsan Koral give a glimpse into the capabilities of the Airborne version: http://www.armyrecognition.com/idef_..._07051509.html





  23. #263
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    4,362
    i only see two screens in that F-16 cockpit with so many dials. This is mid 1990s tech. this BAE ALQ178 V5+ is late 90s.

    This MIG29K/MIG35 cockpit from 2005 with no dials. they were modern before even your F16 upgrade started.


  24. #264
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    398
    My point is that the entire Turkish Viper fleet currently uses the AN/APG-69(V)9 radar not APG-68s as mentioned above. The Israeli Soufa F-16I, and the Hellenic F-16 Block 52s are the other Vipers equipped with this version of Northrop Grumman APG-68 radar, the (V)9 multimode fire control radar. The only better radar to this is the AN/APG-80 used in the UAE's Block 60's- an Active Electronically Scanned Array. Hardly obsolete junk.

    Turkish Vipers since 2015 also use the Harris Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS).
    Last edited by Bayar; 16th May 2017 at 05:00.

  25. #265
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    On the run.. Scandinavia & China
    Posts
    209
    What are Turkey's chances of pulling it all off?
    There are massive amounts of defence project for a country that has economy the size of Netherlands/ less than 2/3 of Russia, seriously corrupt (ITTO ranking 75th place!) and with a relatively low ratings in innovation. The country is sliding into Islamic dictatorship that would in the longer run seriously endanger economic growth as well as access to western technology. A more autocratic country can usually diverge a higher portion of GDP to defence but even so... can Turkey really manage to run all these projects?

  26. #266
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    2,042
    My point is that the entire Turkish Viper fleet currently uses the AN/APG-69(V)9 radar not APG-68s as mentioned above. The Israeli Soufa F-16I, and the Hellenic F-16 Block 52s are the other Vipers equipped with this version of Northrop Grumman APG-68 radar, the (V)9 multimode fire control radar. The only better radar to this is the AN/APG-80 used in the UAE's Block 60's- an Active Electronically Scanned Array. Hardly obsolete junk.

    Turkish Vipers since 2015 also use the Harris Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS).
    yes, Turkish F-16s are still quite potent and the awacs and tankers make them useful force multipliers.
    Still doesn't explain why you need a twin engine heavy stealth fighter, because you still haven't explained what exactly Turkey needs to do in Azerbaijan or Eastern China.

  27. #267
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    398
    Y-20 Bacon- no one is going on a adventure in the Middle East or Central Asia so rest assured. Turkey is merely seeking a highly deterrent capability and a force that can project power abroad if and when the need arises. Its the same situation with the Turkish Navy- why do they need numerous LHD's, AAW Destroyers, Frigates etc and an aircraft carrier? Deterrence and force projection.

    Turkey and the Turkic world also share a common language, culture and religion. They view each other as "many countries one people". Yes, Turkey may not directly engage the enemies of the Turkic world but it would not shy away from donating high-tech weapons to them and provide training in order to repel any enemy.

    All this brings me to the next reason: Russia-China-Turkey are creating a new economic Union- dubbed the "Silk Road Economic Belt" that stretches from Russia through Turkey, Central Asia to China. Both China and Russia view Turkey as the bridge for this new silk road. Russia and China also want Turkey to use its influence in the Islamic world to bring it within this sphere. This video belows gives us an indication of Ankara-Beijing relations within the frame work of the Belt and Road Initiative.

    Also here is another good read: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.89d38145e91e


    Last edited by Bayar; 16th May 2017 at 06:31.

  28. #268
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    398
    TAI and BAE Systems release video on TF-X program to public


  29. #269
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Cataclysm
    Posts
    8,727
    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar
    My point is that the entire Turkish Viper fleet currently uses the AN/APG-69(V)9 radar not APG-68s as mentioned above
    They use APG-68, not APG-69.. That's a typo.. The APG-69 was a radar made by Emerson, intended for the F-20 Tigershark.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar
    The only better radar to this is the AN/APG-80 used in the UAE's Block 60's- an Active Electronically Scanned Array. Hardly obsolete junk.
    Let's be honest here, the APG-68(V)9 is a common standard, basically a classic APG-68 with added SAR capability.. It's not primarily about being obsolete or not, but, as any APG-68, the (V)9 is seriously limited in size.. ~100 km detection and ~75-80 km tracking against a 5sqm RCS target, that's a substandard performance value, by all means.

  30. #270
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Cataclysm
    Posts
    8,727
    Quote Originally Posted by Halo
    What are Turkey's chances of pulling it all off?
    There are massive amounts of defence project for a country that has economy the size of Netherlands/ less than 2/3 of Russia, seriously corrupt (ITTO ranking 75th place!) and with a relatively low ratings in innovation. The country is sliding into Islamic dictatorship that would in the longer run seriously endanger economic growth as well as access to western technology. A more autocratic country can usually diverge a higher portion of GDP to defence but even so... can Turkey really manage to run all these projects?
    In short, no.. the only possibility to pull it off is that Gulf States use Turkey as their work bench to get access to technologies they can't buy directly.. especially AESA, stealth, long-range PGMs and similar stuff.. that would mean rather heavy financial subsidization from third parties and serious export deals in billions. Turkey definitely can't hold it by making all these things just for themselves.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 2 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 2 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

- Part of the    Network -

KEY AERO AVIATION NEWS

MAGAZINES

AVIATION FORUM

SHOP

 

WEBSITES