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Thread: Turkish aerospace

  1. #331
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    The composite materials that are used in T-50/MS21 there is simply no comparision with any other platform in the world.
    your UAV is cheaply made and barely can lift anything at very slow speed. T-50 is designed for high performance with largest internal fuel and weopon load. so the komposite material has to be extremely advanced.

    http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2017/03...that-will.html
    Russia designing submarine that will use composite materials for the hull and other parts and fire hypersonic Zircon missiles
    http://www.rosatom.ru/en/rosatom-gro...ng/composites/
    One of ROSATOM’s projects is the development of polymeric composite materials based on carbon fibre (an organic material containing 92–99.99% carbon). Domestic carbon fibre technology was initially developed back in the 1980s by companies in the nuclear sector. In comparison with conventional construction materials (aluminum, steel, etc.), carbon fibre composites boast extremely high ratings for rigidity, reliability, longevity when working under severe loads, in high temperatures and in corrosive environments. We are now able to produce carbon composites that are 10 times stronger and 5 times lighter than steel.
    very confident about large scale commericialization of advanced composite materials.
    http://www.composite-expo.com/
    1th Exhibition "Composite-Expo" is a unique exhibition event in Russia and is a platform for development and introduction of composite technologies and materials in different branches of industry. The number of visitors increased by 2 times in 2015 as against the event of the last year. Many Russian and foreign companies participate in the event such as Technologiya ONPP, RT-Khimkompozit, Stupino Glass Reinforced Plastics Plant, Akzo Nobel N.V., Evonik, OCV Steklovolokno (OCV Reinforcements) are already exhibitors of the event.

  2. #332
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    I am getting more and more skeptical regd. this.. Turkey financing two 5th Gen projects, that's just too much.. I could imagine they merge all this into one multi-role fighter, right, that is possible..

  3. #333
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    The Advanced Composites Centre of Turkish Aerospace Industries also supplies defence giants like Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman with composite fuselages. The centre fuselages of the F-35 are also produced at this composites centre:

    http://www.upi.com/Turkey-produces-f...1291386863364/

    US F-35 whose fuselages were produced at Turkish Aerospace Industries are already flying: https://www.tai.com.tr/en/news/jsf-f...d-takes-flight

    TAI delivers first center fuselage to Northrop Grumman for F-35 JSF
    http://www.compositesworld.com/news/...n-for-f-35-jsf
    Ankara-based Turkish Aerospace Industries Inc. (TAI) has delivered to Northrop Grumman its first composite F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) center fuselage.
    http://www.compositesworld.com/news/...n-for-f-35-jsf

    Turkish Aerospace Industries Inc. (TAI, Ankara, Turkey) reported on Dec. 11 that it has delivered its first F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) center fuselage at a ceremony held at its Ankara facilities. This all-composite part subcontract manufactured by TAI for Northrop Grumman (Falls Church, Va., USA) will be installed in a U.S. Air Force aircraft at Lockheed Martin's Fort Worth, Texas, USA, facilities.

    In order to serve as second-source supplier of F-35 center fuselages, with production originally forecast at 400 complete assemblies, TAI opened a new composites manufacturing facility in Ankara in November 2008. Here, TAI is the single-source producer for selected F-35 composite components for all F-35 variants and one of two sources for the F-35A composite air inlet ducts and air-to-ground alternate mission pylons for all F-35 variants.

    Muharrem Dortkasli, president and chief executive officer of TAI, states, “TAI invested in brand new, state-of-the-art facilities, machinery, equipment and tooling to manufacture the most advanced and complex assembly of the F-35, Fifth-generation fighter aircraft. It is now time to begin delivering world-class TAI center fuselages to the final production line at an increasing rate every year.”

    “Turkish Aerospace Industries has played an integral part in the development and production of the F-35 for more than a decade,” says Steve O'Bryan, vice president of F-35 Program Integration and Business Development for Lockheed Martin.

    Brian Chappel, vice president, F-35 program, Northrop Grumman Aerospace Systems adds, “We worked hand-in-hand to manufacture the first center fuselage, following established processes implemented by Northrop Grumman on our own assembly line in California. Together, we are driving down costs and raising efficiencies to help the F-35 program meet its affordability goals.”

    Once the program reaches full rate production, TAI will support F-35 final assembly lines in the United States and Italy by shipping one center fuselage every 10 days. This is a lower rate than what Northrop Grumman projected in October 2009. The five-year, $28.4 million USD contract with TAI will help ensure a smooth transition from its current rate of completing approximately one F-35 center fuselage per month, to an eventual rate of one center fuselage per day.”

    Northrop Grumman is responsible for the design and production of center fuselages for all three variants of the F-35 Lightning II aircraft, and originally projected to build more than 3,100 aircraft.

    TAI Delivers First Center Fuselage to Northrop Grumman Under JSF/F-35 Program
    http://news.northropgrumman.com/news...f-f-35-program
    Dec. 12, 2013, Ankara -Turkey

    Turkish Aerospace Industries, Inc. (TAI), a subcontractor to Northrop Grumman, delivered its first F-35 Lightning II center fuselage to Northrop Grumman and Lockheed Martin at a ceremony held at TAI's facilities in Ankara, Turkey, on Dec. 11, 2013.

    This is the first F-35 center fuselage manufactured by TAI as an international manufacturing partner to Northrop Grumman. The center fuselage will be installed into a U. S. Air Force aircraft at Lockheed Martin's facilities in Fort Worth, Texas.

    "Delivery of the first F-35 center fuselage is a major step by TAI to demonstrate its commitment to adding value to the program," said Muharrem Dortkasli, president and chief executive officer, TAI. "TAI invested in brand new, state-of-the-art facilities, machinery, equipment and tooling to manufacture the most advanced and complex assembly of the F-35, Fifth-generation fighter aircraft. It is now time to begin delivering world-class TAI center fuselages to the final production line at an increasing rate every year.

    "TAI has a long, proven track record of building exceptional aerospace products. Delivery of this high quality, affordable center fuselage on time has been another major milestone. TAI will continue utilizing its capability and capacity throughout the life of the program until 2040s," Dortkasli added.

    "Turkish Aerospace Industries has played an integral part in the development and production of the F-35 for more than a decade," said Steve O'Bryan, vice president of F-35 Program Integration and Business Development for Lockheed Martin. "The delivery of the first center fuselage today marks a key milestone for the program and TAI."

    "This is a great achievement for the Northrop Grumman-TAI team," said Brian Chappel, vice president, F-35 program, Northrop Grumman Aerospace Systems. "We worked hand-in-hand to manufacture the first center fuselage, following established processes implemented by Northrop Grumman on our own assembly line in California. Together, we are driving down costs and raising efficiencies to help the F-35 program meet its affordability goals."

    Once the program reaches full rate production, TAI will support F-35 final assembly lines in the United States and Italy by shipping one center fuselage every 10 days. TAI's center fuselages will be integrated into the Turkish F-35 aircraft as well as other participating nations' aircraft.

    In addition to building center fuselages as a Northrop Grumman subcontractor, TAI is the single source for center fuselage metallic assemblies for F-35A, selected composite components for all F-35 variants, and is one of two sources for composite air inlet ducts for F-35A, and air-to-ground alternate mission pylons for all F-35 variants.

    Through participation in the F-35 program, TAI not only contributes to Turkey's economy, but it will also provide employment for hundreds of engineers and technicians for 20 years.

    About TAI

    Turkish Aerospace Industries, Inc. (TAI), ranking among the top hundred global players in aerospace and defense arena, is Turkey's center of technology in design, development, modernization, manufacturing, integration and life cycle support of integrated aerospace systems, from fixed and rotary wing air platforms to unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) systems and space systems. A total of 4,600 experienced personnel work at TAI which 1,600 among them are engineers.

    CONTACT: Media Contacts

    Bican Celik
    Turkish Aerospace Industries
    bicelik@tai.com.tr
    +90 312 811 1800 / 2175

    Carissa Kwan
    Northrop Grumman Corporation
    carissa.kwan@ngc.com
    +1 310 499 3175



    Turkish Aerospace Industries have been supplying Boeing, Airbus, Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, Bombardier and Leonardo with Advanced composites for sometime now in a sub-contractor capacity: https://www.tai.com.tr/en/capabilities/composite
    Last edited by Bayar; 5th June 2017 at 08:04.

  4. #334
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    MSphere- Not 2 programs but 3 programs- TF-X, F-35 and Rostec/TAI aircraft.

    Which is why speculation that Turkey will withdraw from the F-35 program gains further support.

    One must not forgot all these combat aircraft projects are mico-managed ultimately by President Erdogan. All the red tape and funding issues are non-issues when there is a single man driving force behind the project. A man who no one wants to upset in Turkey. A man that does not accept the word no. Turkey would have no defence industry had Mr. Erdogan not have injected a good proportion of GDP into R&D, strategic co-productions deals with ToT etc. Whether its the right project model or not is debatable. But the projects are now political- the survival of the Turkish Government depends on it.

    The same applies to the S-400 acquisition. I think Turkey is sending a political message.
    Last edited by Bayar; 5th June 2017 at 08:01.

  5. #335
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    That is what I agree upon.. everything depends on Erdogan and his push.. which only shows that all these projects alone would not be economically viable..
    But if Turkey withdraws from the F-35... How can this be a bad thing?

  6. #336
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    Dear bayar the only thing i can say to you is Rostec is not an aircraft manufacturer but UAC is the only authorized aircraft developer and manufacturer in Russia. They may only be offered to assemble T-50 in TAI production facilities with a large number of re-equipment and Russian standarts specislists to create the first export customer for their newly created plane. But i would support this idea because i am an old and big fan of PAK-FA😄

    And it is very childish to think that Turkey will leave the F-35 program and continue with its "own" projects (In real world only TF-X) as TF-X will be combat ready at least 2030s and for PAK-FA even agreed not before 2025 because it is not yet created an export version of T-50 probably they may create a special version for Turkey as they did for other countries on Su-30 series. So when Turkey is already a partner of F-35 and first planes awaiting for the combat duty, please be realistic!
    Last edited by medal64; 5th June 2017 at 12:11.

  7. #337
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    It may not be realistic for you and I, but President Erdogan can do anything. And if he says Turkey will withdraw from the JSF (F-35) program- Turkey will withdraw.

  8. #338
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    yes, with Turkey slowly but surely going down the direction of leaving the west and NATO, and joining the eastern bloc with Russia.. they will have no choice but to dump the f-35 and work with Russia and the pak-fa. ideally work with Russian on a mid-weight fighter and import the pak-fa for the heavy weight.

  9. #339
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    so what aircraft will Turkey station in Qatar to protect them from Saudi fighters?

  10. #340
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    yes, with Turkey slowly but surely going down the direction of leaving the west and NATO, and joining the eastern bloc with Russia.. they will have no choice but to dump the f-35 and work with Russia and the pak-fa. ideally work with Russian on a mid-weight fighter and import the pak-fa for the heavy weight.
    The chances of that happening are slightly worse than Iran being invited to be a part of the JSF program in 2018...

  11. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sintra View Post
    The chances of that happening are slightly worse than Iran being invited to be a part of the JSF program in 2018...
    Well they have ousted german Tornado from Turkey. They will get rewarded for it . Whether in Qatar or other place . Turkey is helping Russia EU more depended.
    http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSL8N1IZ36G

  12. #342
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    Y-20 Bacon- does Turkey solely need aircraft to protect against aerial threats faced by Qatar?

    The Turkish Navy has AAW Frigates that can provide Area Air Defence. These are already stationed in the Persian Gulf.

    The Turkish Army also has Roketsan HISAR-A and HISAR-O low and medium altitude air defence batteries which it can deploy in Qatar. They are currently undergoing operational tests but Turkey can accelerate this.

    Mr. Putin is also providing Turkey with S-400 units.

    On top of this Turkey can target the bases from which enemy aircraft will fly out of using Roketsan HIMAR's equivalents and SOM cruise missiles etc stationed on Qatari soil.

    Of course the above will not be needed as nothing will happen in Qatar.

    Turkey has just asked Pakistan to also provide troops to Qatar- which it will house at the Turkish Military base in Qatar. Pakistan being a nuclear power is enough of a deterrent.

    Turkey is viewing the steps in Qatar as an existential threat to itself. President Erdogan is financed by Qatar. Most Turkish Defence projects are financed by Qatar.

    Turkey has also got Mr. Putin and Iran on board and it is currently holding trilateral meetings between Qatar- Russia- Turkey and Qatar-Iran-Turkey. Turkish media sources have also reported that Mr. Putin, Mr. Erdogan and the Emir are discussing the possibility of Russia also providing Russian troops and aircraft to be stationed at the Turkish Military Base in Qatar.
    Last edited by Bayar; 9th June 2017 at 07:21.

  13. #343
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    you seem very confident in Turkey's ability to shoot down

  14. #344
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    Y-20 Bacon- I wouldn't say confident. I am just aware of the contents of the mandate given to the Turkish Armed Forces by the Turkish Grand National Assembly and the Qatari Government. The Rules of Engagement in Qatari Airspace and territorial waters is now no warning- shoot on approach. We saw last time what happend when the Turkish parliament gave such powers to the Turkish Armed Forces.

    The situation in Qatar is no longer a joke- it could trigger WWIII if certain actors get involved.
    Last edited by Bayar; 9th June 2017 at 15:29.

  15. #345
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    ASELSAN's Airborne AESA Radar for combat aircraft is nearing serial production. The initial model will be retrofitted to the Turkish F-16 fleet (240 aircraft) over the next 2 to 3 years.

    ASELSAN intends to also use the feedback it receives from the Turkish Air Force F-16 commanders using the initial version to further develop the radar for the TF-X program and the planned TAI/ROSTEC A2G Fighter.

    Pakistan's JF-17 Block III may also use the Aselsan AESA.

    Last edited by Bayar; 11th June 2017 at 15:06.

  16. #346
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    ASELSAN's AESA radar is in development now, nowehere near serial production phase, let alone being retrofitted to 240 F-16's.

    There is no aircraft development or production project between Turkey and Russia.

    Get back to reality mate.

  17. #347
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    Turkish Ministry of Defence allocates $35 billion for TF-X program: https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/2...a-fighter-jet/

    @Orko_8 I am only relaying what I have heard from Pakistani sources citing your Defence Ministry- they have clearly stated that they will retrofit their F-16 fleet with an ASELSAN AESA before 2020.

  18. #348
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    USD 35 Bio ? Is it for development only or wholle projects ? How Turkey realistically want to finance that with projected nominal GDP in 2017 of USD 793.7 bio ? Whille both Indonesia and ROK with projected nominal GDP in 2017 of USD 1.020 Trilion and USD 1.498 Trilion, only budgeted USD 12 bio for development of KFX/IFX..which I do believe 'the development' is in more advance stages than TFX.

    Then again the sources is Sputnik..
    Last edited by ananda; 12th June 2017 at 11:39.

  19. #349
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    Source doesn't say if it's development only or cost of procurement as well. Which makes it likely it's some preliminary projection for the cost of the whole programme (perhaps even some sustainment, not just development and procurement) over a few decades. So that's not really much different from allocating 12 billion for development only, as in KFX's example.

    And while TFX may indeed be not at as advanced stage of development as KFX, it does seem to have enough political will and money backing it - so I wouldn't be surprised if it is fast tracked and perhaps even makes first flight before KFX; again depending on how much money Korea is willing to pour into it. What seems very likely (assuming BAE's assistance isn't interfered with) is that KFX, when done, will be more stealthy when it enters service than the KFX planes of same year.
    Binkov's Battlegrounds - military analysis videos

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  20. #350
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    The $35 billion is for the development project only. Turkey has still not ascertained the number of TF-X it wants to procure. But in light of the Qatar crisis and Turkey's decision to station aircraft at a Qatari Airbase these numbers may be revised.

    How are they financing the TF-X? The same way they are financing $400 billion in construction projects.

    Last edited by Bayar; 12th June 2017 at 12:30.

  21. #351
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    If it is for development only, then that's money equivalent to development of F-22. GAO concluded 28 billion were spent of developing and testing F-22 up to 2006. Though I'm not sure if those are 2006 dollars or each year's dollar value. In which case total might be more, possibly 30-35 billion worth in 2006 dollars. Or 37-43 billion in today's dollars. Of course, dollar isn't worth the same... turkish work may be cheaper, but then again, BAE's contracted work may be even a bit more expensive than what LM charged US Govt.

    Anyway, still waiting for a proper source and context of the whole news.
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  22. #352
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    ASELSAN's Airborne AESA Radar for combat aircraft is nearing serial production. The initial model will be retrofitted to the Turkish F-16 fleet (240 aircraft) over the next 2 to 3 years.
    Wait, have you actually wrotte that the entire Viper TAF fleet would get an ASELSAN AESA set (or any other radar) in the next "2 or 3" years?
    If thats what you wanted to say, well, thats not wishfull thinking, its way, way, beyond that.
    Have any hardware been stuck in the nose of an actual Viper and flown? From whats publicly available the answer is "NO".
    Last edited by Sintra; 12th June 2017 at 15:08.

  23. #353
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    Either the Turkish Ministry of Defence officials are high on something or there is a lot of disinformation or they are not providing accurate information to the public with regards to the Aselsan AESA. But I am hearing it from many sources.

  24. #354
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    35billion, great thats a quater if Turkish goverment annual spending. Usual financial constrains doesnt seem to apply in Turkey!

  25. #355
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    @Bayar,

    Show any source of any government or industry official's statement, interview etc about:

    Turkish - Russian aircraft project (allegedly focused on A2G capabilities) - except those of Chemezov.
    AESA radar being ready and to be retrofitted to whole F-16 fleet in 2-3 years.

    By the way, $35 billion is the total value of whole backlog of defense programs, signed and about to be signed contracts. Stop spreading misinformation for a change.

    Oh, by the way, Hisar A/O air defence missile systems are undergoing development tests. They are going to start entering service around 2020-2021.

  26. #356
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    Agreed orko, lets talk about what will be the future of TF-X project as the development work ended? Technological preparation, manufacturing and testing, will there be a new partner for these stage of development? it is a challenge at all stage of development for a 5th generation aircraft. One of the most important thing is industry's capability to meet the quality requirements and develop some key technologies which are not shared only you can buy on shelf untill the first prototype created.

  27. #357
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    How are they financing the TF-X? The same way they are financing $400 billion in construction projects.
    No..you don't answered the question..how Turkey able to finance USD 35 bio for one defense/figther project..where other project supported by 2 Nation that each have larger Economy from Turkey, strugling to Finance USD 12 bio on development cost alone.
    You say USD 400 bio on Infrastructure..'So What' both ROK and Indonesia as example also have hundred billions infrastructure projects on each of them on their own and also multi billions other Defense projects..that's why they are strugling to finance KFX/IFX project..

    Are you saying now Turkey can come out the money of that USD 35 bio at ease..and at same time also finance hundred billions other defence and infrastructure projects..where both Nation that each have larger economy than Turkey are strugling to do in similar projects ?
    Is Turkey has external parties to bankroll the project?..At least Egypt as example has KSA to bankroll them on some of their defense projects..whose you're hoping to help Turkey finance this USD 35 bio project..Qatar ?

    it does seem to have enough political will and money backing it - so I wouldn't be surprised if it is fast tracked and perhaps even makes first flight before KFX
    So does KFX..ROK has more political incentive to developed their defense project..considering they're facing Nuclear Armed Megalomania across the border..even then..they are not talking about USD 35 bio for one Fighter project..that's come out frm Nation that have more incentive on defence and with More money than Turkey on defense initiatives..

    By the way, $35 billion is the total value of whole backlog of defense programs, signed and about to be signed contracts. Stop spreading misinformation for a change.
    That's much more make sense then talking of USD 35 bio only for one defense project..

    lets talk about what will be the future of TF-X project as the development work ended? Technological preparation, manufacturing and testing, will there be a new partner for these stage of development? it is a challenge at all stage of development for a 5th generation aircraft.
    Even when Turkey was in talk with ROK to join KFX program..even with all 3 ROK, Turkey and Indonesia join hand for one Fighter project..the amount of Technological challange will be very big..considering neither one of those 3 nation have proven track record on developing latest gen Fighter program on their owm..

    Potential Tech partner must sought out..but with potential BAE for TFX..and LM for KFX/IFX with also 'potential' Saab chip in in some Technological area..they are still tech partner..thus they will are not Financial Partner..means their Technology has to bought..and that will increase the cost..
    That's why KFX/IFX Phase 1 will not be full Gen 5/Stealth as the latest design model in KFX thread shown that..
    So it will be interseting to see how Turkey Financing development of full Stealth/Gen5 TFX model from "the start"..where ROK and Indonesia has to get through several stages to achieve that due to huge amount Investment they are facing..
    Last edited by ananda; 13th June 2017 at 03:39.

  28. #358
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    The Turkish Armed Forces planned a wholesale modernization back in 1996 at a cost of $160 billion dollars spread out over 30 years: http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...rnization.html Now Turkey was hit with a financial crisis in 2002 which set back these aims slightly. However, with the AKP coming to power the program was put back on foot.

    There are also many Turkish Military Funds which President Erdogan can dip his hands into to fund these projects. He can also dip into the Disaster relief fund.

    The problem many Westerners have when they try and read Turkey is that they use the wrong approach and assumptions. Turkey does not function like any other Western country. It's black markets are so large that one PM had even stated that 50% of the Turkish GDP is off the books! Its use of unorthodox methods of fund raising is also not something which is new. Whether it would be fuel levy's, animal hide levies, lotteries etc Turkey has ways of financing Arms procurement projects.

    As stated above Turkey has somehow found funds to finance mega-projects. To date every project President Erdogan promised has eventuated to the disbelief of economists. The man is clearly bankrolled from somewhere. Whether it is the Qatari's or others is unknown.

    If you told Turkish Defense officials do you have the funds to run all these projects they would laugh at you.
    Last edited by Bayar; 13th June 2017 at 06:10.

  29. #359
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    Turkey is import depended technologically backward with dysfunctional procurement.
    Egypt has Rafale and soon getting MIG35. Israel got F35 and F-15. Saudis and Emaritis have modern airforces with modern airdefences. your buddy Qatar is being squeezed out of money it can no longer support bankrupt policies of Turkey. The only way that Turkey can save Qatar is through Iran. Iran has modern airdefence and sea systems that can put effective embargos on the rest. Plus they have credibility of joining together Iraq and Syria as functioning states.

  30. #360
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    @Bayar,
    "As stated above Turkey has somehow found funds to finance mega-projects. "

    The trick is called credit expansion, it will work for a while if you have your own currency and access to capital markets, but unfortunately "Money for Nothing and Chics 4 free" is not 4 real. I can promise you that "This time its NOT different."

    Nationalistic euphoria, careless credit expansion, improductive "investments" will take any country down sooner or later, 2001 is probably not last time Turkey went "belly up".

    In long run military power is indeed related to economic power so this has big implications even on this forum!

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