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  1. #1
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    Malaysian B.777 MH One Seven downed over Ukraine.

    From the BBC, all that is known so far.

    AMS - KUL, 229 passengers, 15 crew.
    Last edited by Newforest; 17th July 2014 at 15:25.
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  2. #2
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    Oh no


    Does Russian Inspired Rebels

    .
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  3. #3
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    Just heard the news from a friend... if confirmed this is devastating, not just for the families of the dead, but for Malaysian Airlines.
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  4. #4
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    Apparently taken down by a SAM.

    Why is the Ukraine, a war zone where a Su25 was shot down yesterday, still open to commercial overflights?

  5. #5
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    Gotta love news programmes - drag out "experts" to fluff out their "breaking news" pieces.
    Reports of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 shot down over Eastern Ukraine - get some retired army bod to speak about how he thinks it was 'probably' done by trigger happy Ukrainian air defence....

    Oh well, no need to investigate it any further...
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  6. #6
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    Reported that the 'rebels 'have 'Bok' surface to air missiles capable of bringing this plane down.
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  7. #7
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    Pretty chilling... "Should it dissappear, this is what it looks like"... Final words from a Dutch passenger.
    http://m.spitsnieuws.nl/archives/tec...oto-voor-crash
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  8. #8
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    Very sad news. RIP all passengers & crew. Apparently MH17 was flying c. 32,000ft so out of range of rebel MANPADs. This implies that if it was shot down by a SAM, a sophisticated, radar-guided SAM system.
    There have been unconfirmed reports that the Russians had recently equipped thier proxies in Eastern Ukraine with Sa-11 Buk SAMs, capable of this atrocity.
    As Theodore Roosevelt said:
    "Talk softly, but carry a big stick"

  9. #9
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    The Russian rebel leader gloated on twitter they shot down a plane believing it was a Ukrainian air force Antonov 26. His tweet has been deleted but someone made a screenshot.

    https://twitter.com/StateOfUkraine/s...212480/photo/1

    I am willing to bet that the black boxes have disappeared and won't be found. Considering the height the Malaysian plane was flying at, 33k foot, it must have been shot down by some serious piece of military hardware. A small MANPAD won't reach high enough. The black market won't provide that stuff, so Russia probably has some explaining to do.

    I would not mind if our government sent a few marines there to drag Strelkov's **** to the international tribunal in The Hague.

    BTW, be cautious looking for images of the crash. There are plenty of them, and they are not shy showing bodies. On Russian tv they are even showing Dutch and Malay passports, opening the photo page of several of them.
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  10. #10
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    Yes in the right order and with FACTS as they become available.

  11. #11
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    Trigger happy Russians.

  12. #12
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    IATA on #MH17: "Based on the information currently available...airspace the aircraft was traversing was not subject to restrictions."
    http://forum.keypublishing.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=24455&dateline=137163  6822Hindsight is what you see from the tailgunner's position...

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by 27vet View Post
    IATA on #MH17: "Based on the information currently available...airspace the aircraft was traversing was not subject to restrictions."
    yes. On the BBC:

    The head of the Russian Air Traffic Controllers' Union, Sergei Kovalyov, told BBC Russian that the airspace over eastern Ukraine had remained open during the conflict because the planes previously shot down had tended to be helicopters or low-flying fast jets.

  14. #14
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    https://www.eurocontrol.int/news/mh-17-ukraine

    According to our information, the aircraft was flying at Flight Level 330 (approximately 10,000 metres/33,000 feet) when it disappeared from the radar. This route had been closed by the Ukrainian authorities from ground to flight level 320 but was open at the level at which the aircraft was flying.

    Since the crash, the Ukrainian authorities have informed EUROCONTROL of the closure of routes from the ground to unlimited in Eastern Ukraine (Dnipropetrovsk Flight Information Region). All flight plans that are filed using these routes are now being rejected by EUROCONTROL. The routes will remain closed until further notice.
    A terrible incident. I wasn't aware of the status of the airspace or that commercial operators were still flying through there. I hope the facts can be brought to the table.

  15. #15
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    Indeed. Until it is irrevocably clear that it was a planned aggressive act and not an error mistaking the aircraft for a military target such statements contribute little to the debate.

  16. #16
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    The answer to your question and indeed others begged, is that "terrorists" are accountable to no one but themselves and act outside the norms of behavior in circumstances such as these.

    The likelihood of the authorities being able to undertake a conventional investigation is pretty remote, I would have thought.

  17. #17
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    I wonder who the preceeding civilian plane who passed through the area was and what his lucky talisman is?
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  18. #18
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    Irrelevant or not I found the sight of the black boxes being formally turned over to the Malay authorities faintly nauseous, as though the rebels were doing them a favour. Nearly 300 innocent people gave been killed for god's sake!!!

  19. #19
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    Just in passing there is some nonsense being spread that a Ukranian SU25 was in the area and could have downed the airliner with a missile over the rebel territory to implicate them.

    Then somebody pointed out that the service ceiling of an SU25 was insufficient to allow this

    Today the Wikipedia entry on SU25 has been locked from editing after attempts to alter its performance details

    Moggy
    "What you must remember" Flip said "is that nine-tenths of Cattermole's charm lies beneath the surface." Many agreed.

  20. #20
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    Hello,

    In reply to Moggy C,
    Here is a link the tells of the supposed SU25 incident - http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-p...ussia-ukraine/

    My apologies for full RT as I do not know how to isolate the actual video bit.
    Perhaps Moggy C can adjust my post to just give the video.

    Alex
    Last edited by Alex Smart; 22nd July 2014 at 11:08.

  21. #21
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    Evidence of missile "hit" found.

    The greenish yello side of the panel is the inside of the fuselage. Note how the holes peel inward? That means something impacted the fuselage and entered it from outside.

    The type of missile that is supposed to have been used does not impact it's target, it explodes near it, sending shrapnel and a concussion wave at it's target.
    The plethora of holes and sooting on the panel in the third and fourth photos show you this missile did exactly that.

    The diagram shows you where the panels came from. As you can see, it was a direct "hit" on the cockpit.
    Once the holes were made, the force of the air rushing in as the plane flew at cruising speed would have utterly ripped the plane apart.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Bmused55

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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Smart View Post

    Perhaps Moggy C can adjust my post to just give the video.

    Alex
    Thanks for the compliment but I'm afraid that is way outside my capabilities. I'm just here to keep the peace; geeky sorts up at Key do all the clever Interweb stuff.

    Regards,

    Moggy
    "What you must remember" Flip said "is that nine-tenths of Cattermole's charm lies beneath the surface." Many agreed.

  23. #23
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    Here is what is left of the flight deck and surrounding structure.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Bmused55

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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moggy C View Post
    Just in passing there is some nonsense being spread that a Ukranian SU25 was in the area and could have downed the airliner with a missile over the rebel territory to implicate them.

    Then somebody pointed out that the service ceiling of an SU25 was insufficient to allow this

    Today the Wikipedia entry on SU25 has been locked from editing after attempts to alter its performance details

    Moggy
    In that hypothesis, the question that remains is why a Su25 would hve been flying at such unusual height. For what kind of mission ? with what sort of payload ? Shadowing an airliner for a safe reco ? At that height it would have required an external pod with excellent optical quality. Does UkrAF hve such equipment ? A modified one. An external sourced ? And then, why did they took the risk to operate their An26 before? So was the hypothetical 25 a last ditch effort after the shotdown ?


    If so that raised another set of question.

    Won't it hve been in the interest of the UkrAF to let the civilian traffic flow even by disregarding the security of those overflight (that they are responsible as it was their Airspace and they are the one granting overflight authorization?

    As we see the implication of that second shadowing contact, if true, raise a new set of question, for the MH17, and for the future of commercial flight:

    Does a nation committed to war can still be granted responsibility for any commercial overflight of its territory by the world community ?


    Last bu not least, the weather over Donetz that day was cloudy. Not really precise source of info, but it's a first row:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by TomcatViP; 23rd July 2014 at 02:11.

  25. #25
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  26. #26
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    The CVR and FDR have now been handed over in Farnborough.
    But other than (at best) "Bang, rush of air, sound of breakup, end of recording", what could they possibly add to the investigation of this tragedy other than the exact time it happened?

    Also, how about this for a very strange twist of coincidence:

    MH17 was shot down on the 17th. The aircraft operating it was 17 years old, having been delivered to Malaysia on the 17th July 1997.
    Three 17's. The conspiracy theorists will be out in force!
    Last edited by Bmused55; 23rd July 2014 at 21:42.
    Bmused55

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