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Thread: Missing Malaysian Airlines B777

  1. #91
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  2. #92
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    I was just reading that via A.Net.

    If true, this does bring this whole thing into the realm of a silent hijacking, and by someone who knew what they were doing.
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  3. #93
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    Indeed, and if true, presumably inferences can be drawn from the various amounts of technical data received by Rolls Royce. Clearly they are not going to share any information other than with the official investigation team, but it does indeed throw the case wide open, and eliminate a number of earlier theories.
    Charlie

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  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bmused55 View Post
    I was just reading that via A.Net.

    If true, this does bring this whole thing into the realm of a silent hijacking, and by someone who knew what they were doing.
    Continuing the Malaysian's yoyo play on the release of information, the military are saying they did track an aircraft across the Malay peninsular but was "unidentified". Is it safe to assume this was MH370? How many other unidentified jets could it gave been?
    With this in mind, and assuming it went on for 4 more hours - it could be a fair bit of the way towards India. Which would explain why they joined the search.

    But what would be the motive for a hijack assuming it was one of the flight crew? The captain was professional and experienced, why choose that particular flight to China? And the first officer, for all his problems and allegations, is similarly unlikely. He's young, what does he gain from hijacking other than a life time behind bars - terrorism may even be punishable by death in that part of the world.

    How vulnerable are aircraft systems to computer hackers? I was on a flight to the Netherlands a few weeks ago and the person next to me pulled out his laptop which instantly went to a black screen with a whole load of code streaming onto it "connecting to server" "link updating" etc etc. If it wasn't for the fact the flight was so short I'd have asked him what he thought he was doing opening something like that up (no matter how innocent) on a flight.
    Last edited by Matt-100; 13th March 2014 at 08:14.
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  5. #95
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    So if it's possible that the aircraft was hijacked and flew (under RADAR?) to a runway within "2,200 nautical miles [from the point it was last tracked], reaching points as far as the Indian Ocean, the border of Pakistan or even the Arabian Sea" - according to the WSJ link above - it strikes me that it's odd that we haven't heard anything from anyone on board. Surely if it did land then *someone* would have been able to make a call and alert someone.

    I'm still amazed that there is no RADAR data anywhere to plot the aircraft's progress, and nobody has reported a suspiciously low-flying 777. For any experts here - (I am certainly not one) is it even possible to fly an aircraft like this one for four hours and not appear anywhere on a RADAR?

    But if we can trust Rolls Royce's telemetry and the engines were running for four hours after it went missing, and we accept that at least one of the people on board would have made contact somehow if it had landed, the it's looking likely that for what ever reason, the aircraft flew on for an unknown distance in an unknown direction for 4 hours and then hit the ground/sea.

    In the absence of any data as to where it flew it's looking like it may never be found, or if it is then it'll be found be accident by someone stumbling upon it.

    EDIT: Oops, Matt-100's post was made while I was typing - so looks like it was possibly tracked after all.
    Last edited by SimonR; 13th March 2014 at 08:22.

  6. #96
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    Taking your first point, if verifiable, surely any unidentified aircraft in a nation's airspace will be investigated and physically identified, won't it, especially if it did not respond to radio calls?
    Charlie

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  7. #97
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    If the engine report is accurate, are we back to the depressurization theory?
    Again, why no ELTs?
    There are two sides to every story. The truth is usually somewhere between the two.

  8. #98
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    Sky News now reports that RR state the engine data stopped at the same time the plan vanished from Radar.

    So, back to square one: We know nothing.
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  9. #99
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    It all rather makes you wish the media would cross check/corroborate before publishing!!

  10. #100
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    Hah, that would smack of common sense.

    No, the press are more interested in ratings. Being the first with some sort of new information ups ratings and money intake.

    These investigators are probably doing their level best, but are caving to the pressures of the world's press.

    The press should be held on a leesh and told the back the heck off and let these people try and focus on finding the aircraft.
    Bmused55

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  11. #101
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    Re:-the FAA and the stress/fatigue cracks around the SATCOM aerial. Fine theory, however this airframe was not SATCOM equipped. Whilst it does seem as if a total failure of the airframe at very high altitude for what ever reason is the most likely cause for the loss. I wish people would just step clear of the speculation.

    With regards to the data being sent 'live' to Rolls Royce, as stated this aircraft was not SATCOM equipped so how was this achieved? I am guessing that we are seeing a buffering lag, however the tinfoil hat brigade will shout conspiracy.

    With regards to the conspiracy theorists, I regularly monitor the US Rightwing press and there are all sorts of claims on various websites and forums (try The Blaze if you want to scare yourself silly!) about this aircraft being in North Korea/China/Iran. This is so the respective governments there can interogate the 'Stealth Technology' technical specialists on board and then 'discover' the wreckage and the bodies at a later date, thus being seen as international heros.
    A similar claim has been made about Burma, but this may have been a very poor taste joust at the Spitfire dig.

  12. #102
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    I agree with Bmused's lasst point.

    As for conspiracy theories as described above, they fall into the same category as tatty tabloid journalism, so can be easily avoided.
    Charlie

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  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehunt View Post
    Taking your first point, if verifiable, surely any unidentified aircraft in a nation's airspace will be investigated and physically identified, won't it, especially if it did not respond to radio calls?
    They didn't realise the significance of what they were seeing until after they had reports of a missing aircraft. Which raises the question did civil ATC wait too long before sounding the alarm?
    http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/14..._r=0&referrer=

    The BBC is also reporting the Chinese satellite images were released by "accident" however that happens?
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  14. #104
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    I meant to suggest that, surely, ANY unidentified aircraft must be seen as a risk and investigated. Or not?
    Charlie

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  15. #105
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    This was posted on PPRUNE, sounds a sensible and viable scenario..

    "I am a licenced engineer, B747.
    This post attempts to describe, with precedents, a possible single failure that would cause loss of coms, depressurisation and crew disablement due to hypoxia.

    Precedent: QF30 25 July 2008 Pax oxygen bottle "explodes" tearing a hole in fuselage.

    Ref: Please google "Qantas oxygen bottle explosion" and view photos of damage.
    The picture taken inside the fwd cargo compartment shows one bottle missing.
    there is no evidence of shrapnel damage in the photo. Therefore, no eplosion.
    The bottle appears to have detached itself from its connections and propelled itself down through the fuselage skin.

    777: The crew oxygen bottle is mounted horizontaly on the left aft wall of the nose wheel well structure with the fittings (propelling nozzle) facing forward. This aims the bottle, in the event of a QF30 type failure, directly into the MEC containing all boxes concerned with coms and a lot more.
    Before all of its energy is spent, an huge amount of damage could be caused to equipment and the bottle could, conceivably, cause a decompression.
    When the crew respond by doning oxygen mask, there is no oxygen and hypoxia is the next link in this proposed chain of events.
    This link is entitled "Hypothetical" and is only that. I believe it ticks a few boxes.
    Hoping this post make it and generates some discussion."
    Last edited by PanzerJohn; 13th March 2014 at 11:00.

  16. #106
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    Apparently not.

    Later in that thread it is mentioned that the OXY bottles are placed in such a way, that if the restraints were to fail, it'll shoot through the radome or perhaps in the space below the flight deck were the mechanism that links the yolk and rudder pedals to each other is. (note: It links the left and right set of controls to one another, so if one moves, the other does. It is not the main linkage to the flight controls)
    Bmused55

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  17. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bmused55 View Post
    No, the press are more interested in ratings. Being the first with some sort of new information ups ratings and money intake.
    These investigators are probably doing their level best, but are caving to the pressures of the world's press.
    The press should be held on a leesh and told the back the heck off and let these people try and focus on finding the aircraft.
    The "press" is hardly a unified entity. Various outlets are asking various people various questions...and surprise...they're getting various answers.
    The lack of decent media relations from the Malaysian govt. isn't helping matters.
    Last edited by J Boyle; 13th March 2014 at 16:16.
    There are two sides to every story. The truth is usually somewhere between the two.

  18. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by RN Phantom View Post
    Photo of some wreckage that was shown on Sky News. At first glance it looks like it could be one of the wing exit hatches.
    To me it looks like the small carco area door with window in the middle ?
    If it looks good, it will fly good !
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  19. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bmused55 View Post
    Sky News
    Is it just me, or is that half the problem, right there? Sky News (or as I like to call them, Sky "Oh, please, GOD let there actually be some" News) and the like's rolling 24/7 'News' coverage creates an insatiable demand for something to actually happen to fill their broadcasts, to the point that any vague statement or suggestion or half-baked theory is seized upon and broadcast across the world - where it is picked up by other channels in a similar situation, thereby gaining credence as it goes. Village newspaper reports "Bloke down the pub says...". TV channel reports on that report, others report on that report of the report, and this continues until everyone disappears up their own fundament. Still, it's not like they care, because they can create some more hot air reporting on the 'breaking development' that the original hot air was, in fact, hot air. Stay tuned for more on this story as it happens...
    My Lord, I have a cunning plan...

  20. #110
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    I am sure that's right and it's not only Sky - the BBC, CNN, Al Jazeerah etc are all just as bad and you can append the same name-tag to each!!
    Charlie

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  21. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJohn View Post
    This was posted on PPRUNE, sounds a sensible and viable scenario..

    "I am a licenced engineer, B747.
    This post attempts to describe, with precedents, a possible single failure that would cause loss of coms, depressurisation and crew disablement due to hypoxia.
    [...]
    777: The crew oxygen bottle is mounted horizontaly on the left aft wall of the nose wheel well structure with the fittings (propelling nozzle) facing forward. This aims the bottle, in the event of a QF30 type failure, directly into the MEC containing all boxes concerned with coms and a lot more. [...]
    After 10sec searching, I found that:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	OxBottles_777 -large.jpg 
Views:	104 
Size:	99.1 KB 
ID:	226356

    close-up view:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	OxBottles_777 -1.jpg 
Views:	104 
Size:	78.7 KB 
ID:	226357

    regarding the propulsive effect:
    Years ago I had to design an "Ice gun" (dry ice). At that time I had to check that the recoil effect was not like what we see in Hollywood. It was not. But I would have to check for the exact type of bottle here.

    The only thing I see as plausible in the scenario above is that the cockpit sustained a fire during enough time to "cook-up" the bottle (there is a battery and a fuel tank nearby). However it does not fit with the loss of of the transponder unless you imagin a general shortcut (fuel leak?).

    Anyhow. What have been said by the poster does not fit the bill of a basic check (10 secondes via google)
    Last edited by TomcatViP; 13th March 2014 at 20:30.

  22. #112
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    Has anyone seen or heard any reports regarding PSR coverage in the region and if it has been of any value to the search? I'm thinking along the lines of military EW stations and such.

  23. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomcatViP View Post
    The only thing I see as plausible in the scenario above is that the cockpit sustained a fire during enough time to "cook-up" the bottle (there is a battery and a fuel tank nearby). However it does not fit with the loss of of the transponder unless you imagin a general shortcut (fuel leak?).
    (10 secondes via google)
    A fuel tank near the battery and the oxygen bottle???? Could you tell me more? I think you may be onto something.

    Rgds Cking (B777 licenced aircraft engineer)

  24. #114
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    You seem in an awful hurry to blame the aircraft.
    1. Has a situation like you described ever happened?
    2. Would it account for the turn?
    3. Would it account for no ELT transmissions?
    4. Would it account for the latest media reports of some systems still reporting for 4 hours after it dropped off the scope?
    5. Would it account for no debris field over its intended route?

    Until you can say "yes" to a majority of those questions, you're just guessing.
    There are two sides to every story. The truth is usually somewhere between the two.

  25. #115
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    2. Yes: partial electrical failure (leak + battery) then fire then catastrophic mechanical failure (I don't want to speculate too much but I have in mind that the pilots might have died or being ejected)
    3. Transponder 1 is in the cockpit. Transponder 2 might not have been reachable for crew stuck in the cabin (cockpit closed for security reasons)
    4. If Structural damage was on the frwd section only, the others system might have operated "normally" and AP keep the plane flyable until... (left blank : horrible thought)
    5. Cockpit only.

    I fear that the loss of that 777 might have been an horrific agonizing experience for all those involved (passengers and else)
    Last edited by TomcatViP; 14th March 2014 at 01:21.

  26. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cking View Post
    A fuel tank near the battery and the oxygen bottle???? Could you tell me more? I think you may be onto something.

    Rgds Cking (B777 licenced aircraft engineer)
    I tried to speculate further for the good of this discussion. (see above)

    Regards,

    Tom (Consultant in Eng)

  27. #117
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    J Boyle - no one can say yes to anything because almost nothing is known for certain apart from its disappearance, particularly as there has been so much contradictory information.

  28. #118
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    Jon Ostrower, Aerospace & Boeing beat reporter for The Wall Street Journal, is stating that the last ping from the missing aircraft to satellites was 5 hours after it went missing and was from over water.
    He's holding firm to this claim. He says he does not know the exact location, but as that ping includes GPS, speed and alt data, he says there will be those that do know. And now the US is sending a ship to the Indian Ocean to search a very specific spot.

    I am slowly beginning to suspect pilot suicide.

    If you think about it for a moment, most previous pilot suicides involving a simple nose dive have always been found out, thus invalidating any insurance claims the suicide was supposed to cause.

    So, perhaps, just perhaps, the desperate person in this case tried to be cunning and take the plane somewhere it'll never be found, thus ensuring any insurance they took out pays up?

    Just as valid a theory as all the others!
    A horrible one I know. And one I REALLY, REALLY hope is not found to be true. However, it does fit with the known facts and emerging information.
    Last edited by Bmused55; 14th March 2014 at 07:22.
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  29. #119
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    Reuters are now quoting sources stating the aircraft was deliberately flown to the Andaman Islands!

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