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Thread: Finland Air Force

  1. #661
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    What ever happened to editing possibility ?

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  2. #662
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    Quote Originally Posted by APRichelieu View Post
    Enacting a referendum in one week after an occupation is a joke.
    It is not something the occupying power should initiate.
    It is also against the constitution, so it is illegal...
    It is understandable that a Russian stooge pretends that they are not responsible for the deteriorating situation.
    Of course, you would ignore the UNDP vote polls having been executed in Crimea since Q3/2009 which have consistently shown a clear YES for joining Russia (results 66-70% for YES, 9-14% for NO and 16-25% for UNDECIDED). If the polls were in favor of staying with Ukraine, you would scream the results all over..

    I don't believe for a second that you or anyone here really cares about Crimea.. you just would like to pi$$ on the Russians.. anyway, it's all done with Crimea, get over it and move on..


    Q3/2009 70% 14% 16%
    Q4/2009 67% 15% 18%
    Q1/2010 66% 14% 20%
    2010 Q2 65% 12% 23%
    2010 Q3 67% 11% 22%
    2010 Q4 66% 9% 25%
    2011 Q4 65.6% 14.2% 20.2%

  3. #663
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere View Post
    Of course, you would ignore the UNDP vote polls having been executed in Crimea since Q3/2009 which have consistently shown a clear YES for joining Russia (results 66-70% for YES, 9-14% for NO and 16-25% for UNDECIDED). If the polls were in favor of staying with Ukraine, you would scream the results all over..

    I don't believe for a second that you or anyone here really cares about Crimea.. you just would like to pi$$ on the Russians.. anyway, it's all done with Crimea, get over it and move on..


    Q3/2009 70% 14% 16%
    Q4/2009 67% 15% 18%
    Q1/2010 66% 14% 20%
    2010 Q2 65% 12% 23%
    2010 Q3 67% 11% 22%
    2010 Q4 66% 9% 25%
    2011 Q4 65.6% 14.2% 20.2%
    You want people to accept opinion polls taken absent any serious discussion/debate/campaigning as a substitute for a legitimate referendum?


    anyway, it's all done with Crimea, get over it and move on..
    Right, Russia invades its neighbor and annexes its territory and all Russia's other neighbors are just supposed to "get over it and move on."

    Again, this whole exchange is a perfect example why so many of Russia's neighbors are starting to take their defense more seriously.

  4. #664
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    In a recent Finnish survey The People of Finland preferred the following:

    Gripen: 21%
    SH: 15%
    Typhoon: 11%
    F-35: 8%
    Rafale: 2%

    However the big winner was the fighter called "I don't know" who got 39% of the votes...

    (Looking at the other figures above probably more of the respondents should have answered "I don't know" because, clearly, they don't.)

    http://www.is.fi/taloussanomat/art-2...0.html?ref=rss

  5. #665
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loke View Post
    In a recent Finnish survey The People of Finland preferred the following:

    Gripen: 21%
    SH: 15%
    Typhoon: 11%
    F-35: 8%
    Rafale: 2%

    However the big winner was the fighter called "I don't know" who got 39% of the votes...

    (Looking at the other figures above probably more of the respondents should have answered "I don't know" because, clearly, they don't.)

    http://www.is.fi/taloussanomat/art-2...0.html?ref=rss
    But therein lies the rub!

    Should defence procurement decisions be based upon the uninformed whims of the General public or the informed decisions made by politicians based upon expert advise and competitive trials whilst acknowledging a nations budgetary situation?

    The general public should certainly have a say via their elected representatives but the Swiss situation of defence procurement via referendum is not a good basis for sound defence planning imho. The Swiss only get away with it due to their geography and neutral status.

    My gut feeling is the Finnish defence forces will want the F-35 after any competitive trial, the only thing I am pondering is there not an argument for the F-35B rather than the A model.
    Because sometimes in life we need a bit of fun

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXNAp3mKepc

  6. #666
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    I am quite sure they will go for the F-35A, with the brake shute (development paid for by Norway).

    With the brake shute the A will be able to stop at relatively short and icy runways.

  7. #667
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedaykin View Post
    My gut feeling is the Finnish defence forces will want the F-35 after any competitive trial, the only thing I am pondering is there not an argument for the F-35B rather than the A model.
    B is sometimes thrown around in coffee table discussions, but I have never seen it mentioned in any official setting. And why would it? Worse performance for more money. If Finland can't afford - or only barely can - F-35A, then not much hope for B.

  8. #668
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    Quote Originally Posted by hopsalot View Post
    You want people to accept opinion polls taken absent any serious discussion/debate/campaigning as a substitute for a legitimate referendum?
    As long as the referendum does not stand for "not legitimate", your question does not make much sense.
    Anyway, all this talk about legitimacy or lack thereof is just a distraction from the fact that you'd like to completely ignore the will of Crimeans and forcibly annex them back to Ukraine where they never wanted to be. And why? to satisfy your superiority complex towards Russia.. you don't really give sh!t about what those people really want, admit it..

    Quote Originally Posted by hopsalot View Post
    Right, Russia invades its neighbor and annexes its territory and all Russia's other neighbors are just supposed to "get over it and move on."
    Again, this whole exchange is a perfect example why so many of Russia's neighbors are starting to take their defense more seriously.
    Yes, in the case of Crimea it's really just get over it and move on. It's a region which has historically belonged to Russia, only got annexed to Ukraine 30+ yrs ago by accident and always has had special autonomy rights.. The people living there are predominantly ethnic Russians, speaking Russian, feeling Russian, clearly having expressed their will to belong to Russia.. The annexation was virtually bloodless, with very little violence involved and very little harm done.. By all means and purposes, I think what happened there was right, in the end (technicalities aside)..

    So, again, get over it.. not everything happening on this planet must be done with US approval.. get used to it..
    Last edited by MSphere; 13th March 2017 at 14:31.

  9. #669
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSR View Post
    It's all hearsay. You can't even point out how many Gripen really operational with Meteor.
    Dismissing facts that you do not like on the grounds that they are hearsay is a typical trick adopted by some posters. Most of the world's warships will have a copy of 'Jane's Fighting Ships' - a world-renowned reference book which (since its reference section contains no direct quotes) is entirely made up of hearsay - facts gathered by the editor and his assistants and not directly attributed to any specific individual.

    But whether you like it or not, Sweden has developed and is building the proximity fuze (and other hardware) for all Meteor missiles.

    Meteor production has been under way for several years, and all the developer nations will be receiving their missiles at the rate that has been agreed, but none will be making statements about how many they currently have and what portion of their fighter fleet are cleared to carry the weapon. Such is the case when any new weapon enters service with any air force. However, Sweden did declare several years ago that already had enough Meteor hardware to give it the option of deploying a sufficient number to change the military balance over the Baltic in any emergency.
    Mercurius Cantabrigiensis

  10. #670
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    One interesting thing about the recently Indian Expo is that two separate journalists that were flying in the Gripen both reported on the Gripen radar and Meteor:

    In look-up mode we were able to detect and track airliners flying off the east coast – a range comfortably in excess of 300 km! Hans showed me how to use the throttle grip to slew the cursor on the radar display to select a target and engage it with a mock BVRAAM. He pointed out that the PS-05 Mk3 radar (current standard fit on all Swedish Air Force Gripens) is already able to take advantage of the MBDA Meteor’s formidable range. Sweden’s fighters were upgraded last year to incorporate the latest MS20 operating software standard, making the Gripen the first combat platform to operationalise the Meteor BVRAAM (see Vayu III/2016).
    http://www.gripenblogs.com/Lists/Pos...t.aspx?ID=1622

    A quick observation ... I was lucky to be flown onboard the LCA Tejas and the Gripen D on consecutive days last week and have a small observation to make. The Synthetic Aperture mode of the PS-05 V3 (possibly V4) on the Gripen was markedly inferior to the resolution provided by the Elta EL/M 2032 set onboard the Tejas while looking down and ground `targets. However, the air to air range on the Gripen's radar (not disclosing numbers here) was singularly impressive - meant to take advantage of the phenomenal range of the Meteor missile. Cheers.
    http://forum.keypublishing.com/showt...68#post2375268

    The Gripen E will of course have a much improved AESA radar, much improved RWR sensors, IRST, improved EWS, and sensor fusion, taking Gripen to a whole new level -- this does not change the fact that the F-35 will be far superior, it just demonstrates that there is an enormous leap in capabilities between the Hornets the Finns fly today, and the F-35, and the Gripen E is somewhere inbetween in many respects (of course with the restrictions that it is a light fighter and in particular missions that require long range and/or big payloads one may need to compensate by e.g. using more Gripens).

  11. #671
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    f-35 only out-ranges gripen E with heavy loads, if that even,
    that imply anti ship weapons in finlands case,
    but the ranges at which finland would launch attacks on russian ships is exceptionally short
    Last edited by obligatory; 13th March 2017 at 15:52.

  12. #672
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    Quote Originally Posted by obligatory View Post
    f-35 only out-ranges gripen E with heavy loads, if that even,
    that imply anti ship weapons in finlands case,
    but the ranges at which finland would launch attacks on russian ships is exceptionally short
    Finland doesnt have air launched Ashm´s. But they field two "heavy weights" in the form of the JSOW and JASSM.

  13. #673
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurius View Post
    Dismissing facts that you do not like on the grounds that they are hearsay is a typical trick adopted by some posters. Most of the world's warships will have a copy of 'Jane's Fighting Ships' - a world-renowned reference book which (since its reference section contains no direct quotes) is entirely made up of hearsay - facts gathered by the editor and his assistants and not directly attributed to any specific individual.

    But whether you like it or not, Sweden has developed and is building the proximity fuze (and other hardware) for all Meteor missiles.

    Meteor production has been under way for several years, and all the developer nations will be receiving their missiles at the rate that has been agreed, but none will be making statements about how many they currently have and what portion of their fighter fleet are cleared to carry the weapon. Such is the case when any new weapon enters service with any air force. However, Sweden did declare several years ago that already had enough Meteor hardware to give it the option of deploying a sufficient number to change the military balance over the Baltic in any emergency.
    Just a point, MS20, the software block that brings Meteor capability was being delivered to aircrafts in April last year and it was suposed to be finished "by summer", if past experience with SAAB holds, then the full Flygvapnet six Gripen sqn´s should be fielding the missile by now.

    Cheers

  14. #674
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sintra View Post
    Finland doesnt have air launched Ashm´s. But they field two "heavy weights" in the form of the JSOW and JASSM.
    i think the ranges are so short so they use land launched Ashm,
    best would be artillery shells with a seeker

  15. #675
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    Quote Originally Posted by obligatory View Post
    f-35 only out-ranges gripen E with heavy loads, if that even,
    that imply anti ship weapons in finlands case,
    but the ranges at which finland would launch attacks on russian ships is exceptionally short
    I'm sure most services would consider the 3 EFT's the Gripen has to carry to match the F-35's range a pretty heavy load. That configuration is so heavy in fact, that the Gripen E/F wouldn't be able to carry much of anything else.

  16. #676
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBW View Post
    I'm sure most services would consider the 3 EFT's the Gripen has to carry to match the F-35's range a pretty heavy load. That configuration is so heavy in fact, that the Gripen E/F wouldn't be able to carry much of anything else.
    A light fighter like Gripen E will in some cases be used in a quite different manner from a larger fighter; in addition will a 4.5 fighter in some cases be used in a different manner from a 5. gen fighter.

    One needs to look at the requirements of the air force, and look at how each system may be able to meet those requirements according to the strengths and limitations of each system.

  17. #677
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere View Post
    Of course, you would ignore the UNDP vote polls having been executed in Crimea since Q3/2009 which have consistently shown a clear YES for joining Russia (results 66-70% for YES, 9-14% for NO and 16-25% for UNDECIDED). If the polls were in favor of staying with Ukraine, you would scream the results all over..

    I don't believe for a second that you or anyone here really cares about Crimea.. you just would like to pi$$ on the Russians.. anyway, it's all done with Crimea, get over it and move on..


    Q3/2009 70% 14% 16%
    Q4/2009 67% 15% 18%
    Q1/2010 66% 14% 20%
    2010 Q2 65% 12% 23%
    2010 Q3 67% 11% 22%
    2010 Q4 66% 9% 25%
    2011 Q4 65.6% 14.2% 20.2%
    In the election it was 95% in favour, which just shows that the election was a giant fake.
    We care about law and order, and Russia don't.
    Crimea is just the largest theft by the Putin led mafia.

  18. #678
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere View Post
    Yes, in the case of Crimea it's really just get over it and move on. It's a region which has historically belonged to Russia, only got annexed to Ukraine 30+ yrs ago by accident and always has had special autonomy rights.. The people living there are predominantly ethnic Russians, speaking Russian, feeling Russian, clearly having expressed their will to belong to Russia.. The annexation was virtually bloodless, with very little violence involved and very little harm done.. By all means and purposes, I think what happened there was right, in the end (technicalities aside)..

    So, again, get over it.. not everything happening on this planet must be done with US approval.. get used to it..
    Russia occupied Crimea in 1783, so history is quite short.
    Considering that the Soviet Union deported most of the Tatars, and have had Russians move into the area,
    casts doubt on the legality of Russias behaviour.

  19. #679
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    Quote Originally Posted by obligatory View Post
    i think the ranges are so short so they use land launched Ashm,
    best would be artillery shells with a seeker
    Thats precisely what they are doing, RBS15 SFIII, plus 130 mm guns backed by short range Eurospike-ER missiles.
    Last edited by Sintra; 13th March 2017 at 18:47.

  20. #680
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    @Loke,
    Main issue for FAF is to figure out how to stay alive on the ground, have at least modest numbers and produce large number of sorties as deterrant or early in conflict.

    Quite possible that ps05/mk4 will outrange the Raven ES 1000 in A2A mode.

    Glad to see your faith in F35 I ll send a postcard to you and your soon only and completely unprotected airbase..

  21. #681
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    Quote Originally Posted by APRichelieu View Post
    In the election it was 95% in favour, which just shows that the election was a giant fake.
    70% or 90%, the outcome is the same.. if the vote was rigged, it was completely superfluous, it would have ended with the same result, anyway..

    Quote Originally Posted by APRichelieu View Post
    We care about law and order, and Russia don't.
    Crimea is just the largest theft by the Putin led mafia.
    Who is "we"?

  22. #682
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    Quote Originally Posted by APRichelieu View Post
    Russia occupied Crimea in 1783, so history is quite short.
    Oh, well, and how far into the history do you want to go? Do you want to return Crimea to the Ottoman Empire, that is Turkey? Or even better, to Mongols?

    Quote Originally Posted by APRichelieu View Post
    Considering that the Soviet Union deported most of the Tatars, and have had Russians move into the area,
    casts doubt on the legality of Russias behaviour.
    Great.. then we can pretty much cancel the United States and return the land to native Indian tribes.. or cancel Australia and return the land to Aborigines.. cry me a river.. it won't change nothing, life goes on.. there are MUCH worse things being done on this planet..
    Last edited by MSphere; 13th March 2017 at 22:24.

  23. #683
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loke View Post
    A light fighter like Gripen E will in some cases be used in a quite different manner from a larger fighter; in addition will a 4.5 fighter in some cases be used in a different manner from a 5. gen fighter.

    One needs to look at the requirements of the air force, and look at how each system may be able to meet those requirements according to the strengths and limitations of each system.
    I don't think range is going to play major factor here - of course endurance always helps, but all the participants will have better range than current Hornets. FAF doesn't fly long range strike missions.

  24. #684
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere View Post
    70% or 90%, the outcome is the same.. if the vote was rigged, it was completely superfluous, it would have ended with the same result, anyway..

    Who is "we"?
    So basically the referendum was BS, but hey, who cares so long as it reaches the outcome you think it should.

    It is that standard "elections as a rubber stamp for what has already decided" business.

  25. #685
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    Let's simplify the task? NATO is expanding to the East? Perfectly! Then Russia is expanding to the West!
    Step 1
    Putting things in order in Ukraine. At the request of the lawful president, Yanukovych, troops are being introduced (permission has already been received). The junta is overthrown. 50% of the population will support, do not hesitate.
    The trial of Nazis and war criminals in Donetsk. Execution through hanging in Lviv.
    Ukraine is divided into Donetsk region, Lugansk region, Odessa region and Kiev region. The name "Ukraine" is never mentioned again.
    Now this is the territory of the Russian Federation

    Step 2
    Operation "Baltia". The revival of historical justice, the return of illegally lost territories of the Russian Empire.
    The strike with misales "Caliber" and "Iskander" along the runways of the airfields in Finland (Rovaniemi, Tammerfors, Kallavesi). The conquest of superiority in the air (Su-35). Raid to military facilities (Su-34). Disembarkation of the Baltic Fleet assault in Helsinki (large landing ships + air-cushion ships, destroyer pr.956 and corvettes, pr. 20380)
    Simultaneous entry of troops into the territory of Finland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.

    Step 3
    The solution of the issue of the Black Sea straits.

    On this expansion to the West ends
    Last edited by paralay; 14th March 2017 at 05:29.

  26. #686
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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by paralay View Post
    Let's simplify the task? NATO is expanding to the East? Perfectly! Then Russia is expanding to the West!
    Step 1
    Putting things in order in Ukraine. At the request of the lawful president, Yanukovych, troops are being introduced (permission has already been received). The junta is overthrown. 50% of the population will support, do not hesitate.
    The trial of Nazis and war criminals in Donetsk. Execution through hanging in Lviv.
    Ukraine is divided into Donetsk region, Lugansk region, Odessa region and Kiev region. The name "Ukraine" is never mentioned again.
    Now this is the territory of the Russian Federation

    Step 2
    Operation "Baltia". The revival of historical justice, the return of illegally lost territories of the Russian Empire.
    The strike with misales "Caliber" and "Iskander" along the runways of the airfields in Finland (Rovaniemi, Tammerfors, Kallavesi). The conquest of superiority in the air (Su-35). Raid to military facilities (Su-34). Disembarkation of the Baltic Fleet assault in Helsinki (large landing ships + air-cushion ships, destroyer pr.956 and corvettes, pr. 20380)
    Simultaneous entry of troops into the territory of Finland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.

    Step 3
    The solution of the issue of the Black Sea straits.

    On this expansion to the West ends
    Your historical justice is based on very brief " historical justitification " as the Neva region where Peter the Great built Leningrad is the land piece that connected the finnish speaking tribes...including Estonia. So that theory now demolished...what are you going to do ? Will you leave Saint Petersburg to finns and go back to east where you came from ?
    If it looks good, it will fly good !
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  27. #687
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    Also with " Paralay logic " Finland should get Pennsylvania easily. As you can see it was part of Finland in 1648. Morton was a finn who also wrote the declaration of Independence in the USA...at least signed it.
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  28. #688
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    Quote Originally Posted by topspeed View Post
    I am willing to change data between our fighter aircraft deliver about my future Proxima Centaur exoplaned colonizing system. Hopefully this opens us better deals too.
    who makes better aircraft drawings


    Topspeed

    or

    Paralay?

  29. #689
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    Interesting is to see that Peter the Great died the same year as the declaration of independence signer John Morton was born...his great grandfather was a finn-swede....from Finland Martti Marttinen....who settled Pennsylvania first ( also in the map his estate ).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Morton_(politician)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_the_Great
    If it looks good, it will fly good !
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  30. #690
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    Quote Originally Posted by Y-20 Bacon View Post
    who makes better aircraft drawings


    Topspeed

    or

    Paralay?
    I make space craft concepts. 1000 km/s reaching. Paralay can draw a nice PAKFA.

    Tsiolkowski, Goddard and von Braun did also contribute in space exploration.
    If it looks good, it will fly good !
    -Bill Lear & Marcel Dassault


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