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Thread: KF-X/IF-X & TF-X for Europe?

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rii View Post
    If all these new aircraft end up looking like F-22 and/or F-35 mashups I'm going to be seriously pissed off. If the Russians and Chinese can design something new to fire the imagination, why not others?
    For KFX/IFX...the involvement of LM is there. It's safe design..the KAI and it's Junior Partner DI did not want to invent something entirely new. Afterall they are going to used technology that already available in the market as much as possible.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by ananda View Post
    For KFX/IFX...the involvement of LM is there. It's safe design..the KAI and it's Junior Partner DI did not want to invent something entirely new. Afterall they are going to used technology that already available in the market as much as possible.
    Hence why the KFX/IFX is 4.5 Generation.

    The Brits/Turks on the other hand have a strategic vision: the development of a new generation air superiority fighter akin to a European equivalent to the US F-22. BAE Systems brings a lot of expertise in this regard from its previous research into LO aircraft. The British Aeronautical Society article also implies this.

    News coming out of Ankara indicates that there may be more European partners who join the TF-X program in future after completion of the pre-design phase. Germany stands out in this regard.
    Last edited by Bayar; 13th February 2017 at 04:39.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar View Post
    Hence why the KFX/IFX is 4.5 Generation.

    The Brits/Turks on the other hand have a strategic vision: the development of a new generation air superiority fighter akin to a European equivalent to the US F-22. BAE Systems brings a lot of expertise in this regard from its previous research into LO aircraft. The British Aeronautical Society article also implies this.

    News coming out of Ankara indicates that there may be more European partners who join the TF-X program in future after completion of the pre-design phase. Germany stands out in this regard.
    Basically if I read this right..are you saying TFX will become some kind successor to Eurojet Typhoon, as a Euro project?

    Then if that to happen TFX will not become Turkey drive project, cause I don't think UK or Germany will want to commit themselves on large scale project if the project still Turkey drive and not Euro drive..
    Bit difference on individual companies frm UK involved with TFX then to UK as a political entity commit themselves to TFX.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by ananda View Post
    Basically if I read this right..are you saying TFX will become some kind successor to Eurojet Typhoon, as a Euro project?

    Then if that to happen TFX will not become Turkey drive project, cause I don't think UK or Germany will want to commit themselves on large scale project if the project still Turkey drive and not Euro drive..
    Bit difference on individual companies frm UK involved with TFX then to UK as a political entity commit themselves to TFX.
    (1) The Eurofighter Typhoon is a 4.5 Gen multi-role fighter whereas the TF-X is an air-superiority fighter program.

    (2) Europe does not have the funds to finance another combat aircraft platform in addition to the Typhoon but requires an air superiority fighter in its inventories in light of the threats faced. It is highly unlikely the US will sell the F-22 abroad. This is where Turkish Aerospace Industries comes in. The TF-X is directly funded by the Turkish Government. A Government which won its entire election campaign on the development of an indigenous fighter and development of the Turkish Aerospace sector. $44 billion has been allocated for this program. TAI would basically be funding the R&D for a European Air-Superiority Fighter.

    (3) Turkey can use the Organisation for Joint Armament Cooperation as project manager of the program. OCCAR is a European intergovernmental organisation which facilitates and manages collaborative armament programmes through their lifecycle between the nations of Belgium, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, and the United Kingdom. Other States can participate in OCCAR programmes without becoming a Member State. Currently the EU and/or NATO members Turkey, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Finland, Sweden, Lithuania and Poland participate in one or more OCCAR programmes without being a formal member. Turkey was a OCCAR member in the A-400M military program.

  5. #155
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    If we are thinking of a company with LO experience that doesnt produce boring designs then BAE has to come top

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    and that is from nearly 30 years ago

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar View Post

    (2) Europe does not have the funds to finance another combat aircraft platform in addition to the Typhoon but requires an air superiority fighter in its inventories in light of the threats faced. It is highly unlikely the US will sell the F-22 abroad. This is where Turkish Aerospace Industries comes in. The TF-X is directly funded by the Turkish Government. A Government which won its entire election campaign on the development of an indigenous fighter and development of the Turkish Aerospace sector. $44 billion has been allocated for this program. TAI would basically be funding the R&D for a European Air-Superiority Fighter.

    "Europe" does not have the funds to finance another aircraft besides the Typhoon, nevermind that the development and acquisition costs of that particular bird are already payed, but Turkey with a defense budget half of the French or the British ones is going to finance "Europe" into a new multi national program?
    Right now, no one in Europe outside of the TAF is considering the TFX, there are severall Air Forces buying "Dave", the French and the British are into UCAV´s and "ze Germans" are looking around, but no one is giving much of a thought to the TFX, wich is entirely normal. Turkey wants to go from the Hurkus directly into a "Raptor Lite", and most of the outsider´s are... well lets say... "dubious" about the chances of that particular bird getting into sqn´s, nevermind the "On time, on cost and on spec" bits, it will be quite a feat if TAI pulls something that ends in combat sqn´s, but the chances of the rest of Europe adopting it has a replacement for the Phoon (IMO) are almost nil.

    ps - The Raptor line is closed for six years now.

    Cheers
    Last edited by Sintra; 13th February 2017 at 11:40.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrmalaya View Post
    If we are thinking of a company with LO experience that doesnt produce boring designs then BAE has to come top

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    and that is from nearly 30 years ago
    Northrop

    Cheers

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sintra View Post
    "Europe" does not have the funds to finance another aircraft besides the Typhoon, nevermind that the development and acquisition costs of that particular bird are already payed, but Turkey with a defense budget half of the French or the British ones is going to finance "Europe" into a new multi national program?
    Right now, no one in Europe outside of the TAF is considering the TFX, there are severall Air Forces buying "Dave", the French and the British are into UCAV´s and "ze Germans" are looking around, but no one is giving much of a thought to the TFX, wich is entirely normal. Turkey wants to go from the Hurkus directly into a "Raptor Lite", and most of the outsider´s are... well lets say... "dubious" about the chances of that particular bird getting into sqn´s, nevermind the "On time, on cost and on spec" bits, it will be quite a feat if TAI pulls something that ends in combat sqn´s, but the chances of the rest of Europe adopting it has a replacement for the Phoon (IMO) are almost nil.

    ps - The Raptor line is closed for six years now.

    Cheers
    Thats correct. Right now no one in Europe is considering the TF-X. But I didn't assert this. I said once BAE Systems and TAI complete the pre-design phase European nations may decide to join the TF-X program.

    Yes the French and British are into the UCAV's but so too is Turkey under its MITUP program- the TFX is a prelude to this program. In fact all Western airforces will commence studies into UCAV's. BAE Systems has Taranis, the US has the Boeing X-45 and Northrop Grumman X-47B, the Indian DRDO AURA, and the Russian MiG Skat. BUT all of these platforms will not replace the role of traditional combat aircraft until at least 2035 onwards. The TFX is intended to be commissioned between 2023-25.

    Turkish Aerospace Industries is also not going from Hurkus to the TFX. It is going from licensed production of 300 F-16's, indigenous modernisation of entire F-16's (Ozgur program), industrial input in the JSF program to design and development of the SNC/TAI Freedom Trainer to developing a new combat aircraft TOGETHER in conjunction with a British defence giant.

    If Europeans purchase Gripen's and Mirage then they will most definitely consider the TF-X.
    Last edited by Bayar; 13th February 2017 at 13:06.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar View Post
    Thats correct. Right now no one in Europe is considering the TF-X. But I didn't assert this. I said once BAE Systems and TAI complete the pre-design phase European nations may decide to join the TF-X program.
    Yes, that is possible. Many would see that as risky, too, due to Turkey being somewhat unstable (got a civil war going on; recent attempted coup d'état; head of state altering constitution to something more like dictatorship). And what if the Islamic fundamentalists (no freedom except what Sharia allows) gain power in Turkey? Will agreements with infidels continue?


    [QUOTE=Bayar;2374008]Thats correct. Right now no one in Europe is considering the TF-X. But I didn't assert this. I said once BAE Systems and TAI complete the pre-design phase European nations may decide to join the TF-X program.
    Sum ergo cogito

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sintra View Post
    Northrop

    Cheers
    Hmmm, yes ok I will give the YF-23 a nod, but no more

  11. #161
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    [QUOTE=Spitfire9;2374065]Yes, that is possible. Many would see that as risky, too, due to Turkey being somewhat unstable (got a civil war going on; recent attempted coup d'état; head of state altering constitution to something more like dictatorship). And what if the Islamic fundamentalists (no freedom except what Sharia allows) gain power in Turkey? Will agreements with infidels continue?


    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar View Post
    Thats correct. Right now no one in Europe is considering the TF-X. But I didn't assert this. I said once BAE Systems and TAI complete the pre-design phase European nations may decide to join the TF-X program.
    There is zero geopolitical risk in Turkey

    No civil war in Turkey- just a war on communist terrorist groups seeking to carve out communist territories.
    Coup- product of Turkey shifting to Russia and China due to Obama's incompetence vis-a-vis Syria. Western Intelligence agencies will not make another attempt at overthrowing Erdogan as this would then solidify Turkey's exit from NATO. He is too powerful as he enjoys popular support at home. The Trump Administration also has good relations with the current Turkish Government. Trump also has business ties with Erdogan's business associates.
    Islamic fundamentalism- Turkey is the last country to succumb to Islamic fundamentalism. The Turks hate the British created Wahhabism. They blame it for the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire (Laurence of Arabia). The Turks also practice a different form of Islam to the majority of the Islamic world. They were also an Islamic Caliphate for in excess of 700 years just only 100 years ago. Their Ottoman caliphate gave refuge to Sephardi Jews fleeing the Spanish Inquisition and were one of the first countries in the world to legalise homosexuality. Even well before the Western world.
    Constitutional changes- Turkey is holding a referendum on whether Turkey should become a Presidential Republic like the USA and France or remain a Parliamentary democracy. The proposed Constitutional changes are identical word for word with the US Constitution. Hardly, akin to a dictatorship unless one asserts that the US Presidential system is also undemocratic.
    Last edited by Bayar; 14th February 2017 at 01:31.

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar View Post
    Thats correct. Right now no one in Europe is considering the TF-X. But I didn't assert this. I said once BAE Systems and TAI complete the pre-design phase European nations may decide to join the TF-X program.
    Oh, i see, agree.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar View Post
    Turkish Aerospace Industries is also not going from Hurkus to the TFX. It is going from licensed production of 300 F-16's, indigenous modernisation of entire F-16's (Ozgur program), industrial input in the JSF program to design and development of the SNC/TAI Freedom Trainer to developing a new combat aircraft TOGETHER in conjunction with a British defence giant.

    If Europeans purchase Gripen's and Mirage then they will most definitely consider the TF-X.
    They will consider the TFX when, and if it gets into sqn´s, before no. SAAB and Dassault have an historical pedigree in this particular business, TAI no. Mind you, i will be thrilled if TAI gets that aircraft right!
    Last edited by Sintra; 13th February 2017 at 22:48.

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sintra View Post
    Oh, i see, agree.




    They will consider the TFX when, and if it gets into sqn´s, before no. SAAB and Dassault have an historical pedigree in this particular business, TAI no. Mind you, i will be thrilled if TAI gets that aircraft right!
    When the Turkish Minister of Defence announced that Turkey was developing a new generation air superiority fighter comparable in mission profile to the F-22 I quite frankly laughed. This continued up until BAE Systems and Rolls Royce joined the TF-X program. Then I heard the British PM's speech.

    Then I was alerted to the technology coming out of Turkey in the past 10 years which made me change my mind. (Some that spring to mind is the Roketsan SOM Advanced Stand-off Missile which is now being marketed by Lockheed Martin in the US. The other is the ASELSAN AESA, IRIST and KORAL. Then you have the ASELPOD, MEHPOD, Aerial Stand-off jammers etc. All Turkish precision strike missiles also use indigenous seekers heads: IR, semi-active laser etc)

    Then on top of this a $44 billion budget was announced together with a recruitment drive for engineers with experience in developing combat aircraft from abroad. Then I saw that as many as 1000 Turkish companies had already begun development of sub-systems and some even had proven prototypes being tested on F-16 Block 30's being used as test-beds.

    This to me showed the professionalism and solid intention on TAI's part.

    Now I follow the program closely because it could quite frankly turn into a European equivalent to the F-22. We will only know when the pre-detail designs are revealed.

    E.g. Turkey also a few years ago stated an intention to build stealth warships. Everyone laughed. Today it is commissioning MILGEM's in large numbers.

    Last edited by Bayar; 14th February 2017 at 01:35.

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