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Thread: KF-X/IF-X & TF-X for Europe?

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Y-20 Bacon View Post

    am I also the only one who thinks Korea/Indonesia should join with them on this project? they seem to be asking for the same things. might as well join together to share risk and costs.
    Frm what I read frm South Korea sources, Turkey is the one who turned down ROK approach, saying that what KFX-IFX envisage is different frm what TFX aimed. Still frm the way I see it..KFX-IFX already moved to development stages when Turkey being approach, thus Both Korea and Indonesia seems unwilling to change and alter basic design, for benefit of Turkey. Eventough both welcome another partner.

    KFX/IFX already set their design, and already proceed to development stages. Thus any alteration just for sake to include Turkey, will further development time frame than schedulled. Unless Turkey want to follow the approved design, which Turkey decided not completely in line with what they want.

    I know I wrote in the early thread on 2013 that the 1st phase is not finish, Korea then for domestic politics suspend the program for 18 mo, but now they are moving ahead on Phase 2 (development stage) which aimed to produce prototype by 2020. They already set target for blk 1, blk 2 and blk 3. Current agrement between KAI for Korea and IAe/DI for Indonesia as far as I know only set for Blok1.

    In sense after Blok 1 both Indonesia and ROK can go seperate ways or still developing Blk 2 and 3 together. Blok 1 and Blok 2 basically still 4.5 gen Aircraft. Korean envision on Blk3 is more stealthly design with inner weapon bays, and avionics more comparable to F-35 standard.
    That's why for this moment both ROK and Indonesia only aimed for Blk 1 or Blk 2 at most, since Blk 3 will be somewhat different class of development.

    Bellow is the set design for Blk 1.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by ananda; 2nd February 2017 at 05:28.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by KGB View Post
    I wouldn't say the Asian fighters are stiff dead yet.

    But yeah it seems like Turkey is all gung ho about it. They are starting from rock bottom though. This is going to be a tough project. All the ingredients. Even a transnational partnership.

    One doesn't need to look any further than the Russia/France Mistral ship deal to see how that might become a problem.
    This thing will take money away from upgrades to current fleet of Turkish fighters and possibly derail F35 (loss to US manufacturing). Turkey simply cant afford two programmes at same time. On top of that failure in Syria only stronk countries are rewarded.
    US carefully manage the inventory of bombs it sell to Turkey. BAE and UK will become even more dependent on US and markets that's US control.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by ananda View Post
    Frm what I read frm South Korea sources, Turkey is the one who turned down ROK approach, saying that what KFX-IFX envisage is different frm what TFX aimed. Still frm the way I see it..KFX-IFX already moved to development stages when Turkey being approach, thus Both Korea and Indonesia seems unwilling to change and alter basic design, for benefit of Turkey. Eventough both welcome another partner.

    KFX/IFX already set their design, and already proceed to development stages. Thus any alteration just for sake to include Turkey, will further development time frame than schedulled. Unless Turkey want to follow the approved design, which Turkey decided not completely in line with what they want.

    I know iwote in the early tnread on 2013 that the 1st phase is not ginish, Korea then for domestic politics suspend the program for 18 mo, but now they are moving ahead on Phase 2 (development stage) which aimed to produce prototype by 2020. They already set target for blk 1, blk 2 and blk 3. Current agrement between KAI for Korea and IAe/DI for Indonesia only set for Blok1.

    In sense after Blok 1 both Indonesia and ROK can go seperate ways or still developing Blk 2 and 3 together. Blok 1 and Blok 2 basically still 4.5 gen Aircraft. Korean envision on Blk3 is more stealthly design with inner weapon bays, and avionics more comparable to F-35 standard.
    That's why for this moment both ROK and Indonesia only aimed for Blk 1 or Blk 2 at most, since Blk 3 will be somewhat different class of development.

    Bellow is the set design for Blk 1.
    what do you think the differences in goals for the Koreans and Turks are?

    The models they proposed look more or less different and quite honestly, not sure if the Koreans are really that far ahead of the Turks. they both look like theyre playing with models. but the Koreans seem closer to finalizing on it.

    I suspect it may end up being like Rafale and Eurofighter. they be like "no no we had to split up, our goals are just too different", and outside of carrier landing.. both produced an aircraft that meets like 80-90% of the same needs.

  4. #94
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    Korea wants to be the lead in the projects. While Indonesia happy to be Junior Partner and let Korea leads (considering ROKAF will used more KFX then TNI-AU..latest report stated 120 for ROKAF and 80 for TNI-AU)..mind you that's the requirement for Blok 1 and Blok 2. Blok 3 will be different matter.

    Turkey on the other hand want to have same lead power on the design like Korea, at least frm I heard. Yes in the end you can say some similarity with Rafale and Euro-Jet situation..since in truth I don't really see much difference on design specs between KFX/IFX and TFX. Still Korea seems want another Junior Partner, while Turkey did not want to be Junior Partner..

    As for the model for KFX/IFX..what I put the picture is already a set design. That's why they go ahead to phase 2 which is Manufacturing and Development phase for prototype manufacturing and development. This phase begin frm 2016 - 2025, aimed to build 5 prototypes and test them until 2025, when manufacturing on blok 1 will begin.
    Last edited by ananda; 2nd February 2017 at 05:41.

  5. #95
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    I think there's a newer one now

    your model is c103 but the last i've heard is c103a
    which is bigger, heavier, and has a full internal bay


  6. #96
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    another one



    which really does look like


  7. #97
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    I have to wonder if the TF-X will look solo Lockheed. I would like to think it will look less like a generic F22/35 thing, particularly now.

  8. #98
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    Yes, but all derived frm C-103 design. That's why I say the design is set..but on development stages of current Phase 2, the posibilities to modified the design for prototypes is there. However basic design already set.

    As C103-IA frm what I heard is the one which then called blok3, while blok 1 and 2 will derived frm C103-I. At least that's what I heard frm Indonesian side..But off course it's not close the possibility to go straight to C103-IA..however that's the calculation on this stage for the cost of development coming. The budget USD 10-12bio is for blk 1 prototype and design test. Thus if the budget can go straight away to C103-IA then why not.

    However frm what I read frm several korean site, the vision for that C103-IA is quite ambitious, thus I'm quite sceptics the present phase2 stage which aim to build blk1 at phase3, can go straight away to that design.

  9. #99
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    Taiwan also decided to develope its indigenous stealth fighter.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocay84 View Post
    Taiwan also decided to develope its indigenous stealth fighter.
    Any source for that and some additional info ??
    ...

    He was my North, my South, my East and West,
    My working week and my Sunday rest,
    My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
    I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

    The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
    Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
    Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
    For nothing now can ever come to any good.
    -------------------------------------------------
    W.H.Auden (1945)

  11. #101
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    unless L.M failed horribly on F-35, this fighter will only marginally improve performance,
    so building it cant be performance driven
    the missile will require about five times the G capability of the target to complete a successful intercept.
    -Robert L Shaw

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deino View Post
    Any source for that and some additional info ??
    a very.. looong time ago
    the news said they were working with Russia on it.

    this was before Pak-fa.

    I doubt it now, as Russia would greatly fear pissing of China.. or would they.

  13. #103
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    A lot of KF-X media floating around is fan made. I'd like to clear up some stuff about the KF-X's development and timeline.

    The c103 design was a very basic one meant to compare configurations. Now that the F-22 like low-risk configuration was selected, further development and engineering is ongoing.

    c103>c104>c105(underwent 1/13 model wind tunnel tests)>c106(current)>c107~9(Final, to be finished by mid 2018).

    After c109 there will hopefully not be any major changes and will be the basis of the 8 prototypes that are to make up the test fleet. First flight is to be in 2022 but that may be optimistic. The production of the first 8 airframes will then move into LRIP production of Blk1s by 2025.

    Block 1 and Block 2 will not have any internal weapons bay. The difference between Blk1 and Blk2 is closer to LRIP/IOC to FOC, similarly to the F-35 it's not about physical changes but software and testing/verification of capabilities. They are aiming for Blk2 capability to be declared operational by 2028 and Blk2s rolling off the production lines to Air Force squadrons. They will aim to fulfil the delivery of 200 some jets by 2030. After that, further orders of Blk2 or Blk3 aircraft may be forthcoming, who knows?

    As a side note, the external Targeting Pods and Jammers seen on the KF-X will be external on the Blk3 as well. Logic being, those are only needed for serious AtG work, and in that use-case (unlike the F-35 which would be the main perpetrator of the ROKAF) the KF-X would only be able to carry a meaningful AtG loadout externally. So there's no need to worry about stealth.

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deino View Post
    Any source for that and some additional info ??
    Here is a recent one:


    http://alert5.com/2017/01/26/taiwan-...ealth-fighter/

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by ananda View Post
    Frm what I read frm South Korea sources, Turkey is the one who turned down ROK approach, saying that what KFX-IFX envisage is different frm what TFX aimed. Still frm the way I see it..KFX-IFX already moved to development stages when Turkey being approach, thus Both Korea and Indonesia seems unwilling to change and alter basic design, for benefit of Turkey. Eventough both welcome another partner.

    KFX/IFX already set their design, and already proceed to development stages. Thus any alteration just for sake to include Turkey, will further development time frame than schedulled. Unless Turkey want to follow the approved design, which Turkey decided not completely in line with what they want.

    I know I wrote in the early thread on 2013 that the 1st phase is not finish, Korea then for domestic politics suspend the program for 18 mo, but now they are moving ahead on Phase 2 (development stage) which aimed to produce prototype by 2020. They already set target for blk 1, blk 2 and blk 3. Current agrement between KAI for Korea and IAe/DI for Indonesia as far as I know only set for Blok1.

    In sense after Blok 1 both Indonesia and ROK can go seperate ways or still developing Blk 2 and 3 together. Blok 1 and Blok 2 basically still 4.5 gen Aircraft. Korean envision on Blk3 is more stealthly design with inner weapon bays, and avionics more comparable to F-35 standard.
    That's why for this moment both ROK and Indonesia only aimed for Blk 1 or Blk 2 at most, since Blk 3 will be somewhat different class of development.

    Bellow is the set design for Blk 1.
    Looks like the whole tail section is F 16. The cockpit section is F 35. The way the intake is drawn doesn't even make sense. I think this is just a mock up for visual perposes and has little to do with what they are producing.

  16. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by EagleSpirit View Post

    The c103 design was a very basic one meant to compare configurations. Now that the F-22 like low-risk configuration was selected, further development and engineering is ongoing.


    Block 1 and Block 2 will not have any internal weapons bay. The difference between Blk1 and Blk2 is closer to LRIP/IOC to FOC, similarly to the F-35 it's not about physical changes but software and testing/verification of capabilities. They are aiming for Blk2 capability to be declared operational by 2028 and Blk2s rolling off the production lines to Air Force squadrons. They will aim to fulfil the delivery of 200 some jets by 2030. After that, further orders of Blk2 or Blk3 aircraft may be forthcoming, who knows?

    As a side note, the external Targeting Pods and Jammers seen on the KF-X will be external on the Blk3 as well. Logic being, those are only needed for serious AtG work, and in that use-case (unlike the F-35 which would be the main perpetrator of the ROKAF) the KF-X would only be able to carry a meaningful AtG loadout externally. So there's no need to worry about stealth.
    Thanks for the clear-up..

    Thus C-103 is the basic design..and further design will derived on that basic design. In sense the basic configuration more or less already set by this design, and further development will be more fine tuning on it.

    This more or less what I've gather so far, where Blok 1 and 2 difference will be on systems and avionics. Whille Blok 3 will have further physical difference. Anyway are you sure on 8 prototypes in Phase 2 ? Just clearing up..because so far I got 5 Prototypes in Phase 2..
    Last edited by ananda; 3rd February 2017 at 07:15.

  17. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by KGB View Post
    Looks like the whole tail section is F 16. The cockpit section is F 35. The way the intake is drawn doesn't even make sense. I think this is just a mock up for visual perposes and has little to do with what they are producing.
    Off course it's a mock up..not a final design even for prototype let alone the production ones. However it's a set 'basic' design, which the result on phase 1.

  18. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by KGB View Post
    Looks like the whole tail section is F 16.
    The F-16 has two F-414 engines and twin tails?
    Last edited by Sintra; 3rd February 2017 at 10:17.

  19. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by ananda View Post
    Thanks for the clear-up..

    Thus C-103 is the basic design..and further design will derived on that basic design. In sense the basic configuration more or less already set by this design, and further development will be more fine tuning on it.

    This more or less what I've gather so far, where Blok 1 and 2 difference will be on systems and avionics. Whille Blok 3 will have further physical difference. Anyway are you sure on 8 prototypes in Phase 2 ? Just clearing up..because so far I got 5 Prototypes in Phase 2..
    It's last year's news (December 2015, January 2016) but Korean news media widely reported that KAI was contracted to build 2 structural prototypes (for static, ground based testing) and 6 flight-capable prototypes for a total of 8. The first flight-ready article is scheduled to be finished by late 2021 and undertake taxi tests and other testing before first flight in 2022.

    Unfortunately, there are no readily available English sources but if you put 'KF-X' and '시제기' (Korean for Prototype) into a search engine there will be Korean articles on that very subject.

  20. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sintra View Post
    The F-16 has two F-414 engines and twin tails?
    F 18 I meant sry


  21. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by obligatory View Post
    unless L.M failed horribly on F-35, this fighter will only marginally improve performance,
    so building it cant be performance driven
    These deals are never performance or cost driven.

    Its mainly about developing know-how and indigenous experience. To hedge for when diplomatic relations fall apart. Iran is perfect example. Still running Phantoms and Tomcats and having a hell of a time maintaining them.

  22. #112
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    http://kotaku.com/korean-military-in...com-1791324284

    Korean Military In Trouble Over Battlefield And Ace Combat Footage



    The South Korean military has a new program to co-develop fighter planes. To show off the project, a web video was created with tax payers’ money. Oh, and unauthorized video game footage.

    The Korea Times (via tipster Sang) report that the country’s Ministry of National Defense released the ten minute clip, which features a few seconds of Battlefield 3 and Ace Combat: Assault Horizon to show off the aircraft’s performance. Heh.

    You can watch a YouTube version of the clip in question below. The game footage appears between 6:53 and 7:03.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SkBx_FbBu8

  23. #113
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    To0 much misinformation about Turkey's TF-X program here.

    Firstly, Turkey's TX program and TF-X program are two different programs.

    The First is a Jet Trainer replacement for the Talons- dubbed the T-X program
    The Second is an Air-Superiority Twin-engine fighter that would compliment the F-35 in a network-centric airforce structure: the TF-X program.

    Sierra Nevada Corporation and Turkish Aerospace Industries have jointly developed the Freedom Trainer, which will almost certainly win Turkey's TX trainer program

    BAE Systems + Rolls Royce + Turkish Aerospace Industries + TUSAS Engine Industries are working on the TF-X Air Superiority Fighter program.

    Now BAE Systems is merely providing technology (BAE Replica program and Eurofighter Typhoon technology) transfer and Engineering support services to TAI in the TFX program.

    Rolls Royce is also transferring EJ-200 technology to TUSAS Engine Industries. Rolls Royce has extensive research on a EJ-200 with Thrust vectoring that did not come to fruition. TEI wants to develop the EJ-200 with thrust vectoring further and use it as an indigenous replacement for the TF-X.

    TX
    http://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cz0P5_KXEAAaNUw.jpgClick image for larger version. 

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    TFX Rendering
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    Last edited by Bayar; 7th February 2017 at 04:07.

  24. #114
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    Rolls Royce is also transferring EJ-200 technology to TUSAS Engine Industries. Rolls Royce has extensive research on a EJ-200 with Thrust vectoring that did not come to fruition. TEI wants to develop the EJ-200 with thrust vectoring further and use it as an indigenous replacement for the TF-X.

    Thrust vectoring research on EJ 200 was not performed by Rolls Royce, but by a spanish company...

  25. #115
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    A valid point that I would have made too, but somewhere in the back of my mind I thought RR had bought into IPT (the Spanish company that did the TV research fro the EJ200):

    Wikipedia suggests that RR owns 46% of IPT (with the rest being purchased) so it is possible (but the whole TF-X BAE/RR thing is crossing so many perceived contractual lines of responsibility- who knows).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indust...bo_Propulsores
    Last edited by mrmalaya; 7th February 2017 at 14:55.

  26. #116
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    Seems like the best idea for both Turkey and the UK is for the Royal Air Force to join the program as a full partner and get an eventual Typhoon-replacment.

  27. #117
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    Below are some of the sub-systems that have already been developed by Turkish Companies for the TF-X program. They include the ASELSAN AESA Radar which uses GaN technology, and ASELSAN IRIST, ASELPOD Targeting and Navigation Pod, Aselsan Electronic Warfare Pod, Air-to-Air missiles etc. These are currently being tested on F-16 test-beds but will be integrated into the TF-X.

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  28. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by JakobS View Post
    Seems like the best idea for both Turkey and the UK is for the Royal Air Force to join the program as a full partner and get an eventual Typhoon-replacment.
    Any reason why Typhoons should not be fitted with TV (perhaps as part of a MLU)? I imagine that the research/development on the EJ200 was done with a view to applying it to Typhoon. If the main requirement for a TV Typhoon is a change in the flight control software, why not? I recall it being said that controlling trim at least in part through thrust vectoring would reduce drag.
    Sum ergo cogito

  29. #119
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    On the subject of Typhoon and TVC, it was bench tested and worked, but wasn't desired by any of the partners. It could have benefits to fuel consumption and in the context of a now thoroughly defunct Naval fighter, but I would imagine an updated EJ200 would be of more interest in an MLU than TVC.

    Obviously, that does not apply to a new design which relies on it from the start.

  30. #120
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    BAE Systems and British officials have already confirmed that technology developed for the TF-X (especially in the avionics department) will be used to modernise the Royal Air Force Typhoons in future. The contract between Turkey and the UK also clearly state that Turkey will consent to the transfer of such technology (as Turkish Aerospace Industries would own all the IP for the TF-X).

    Thus, Turkey is basically paying for the R&D costs of an upgrade package for Typhoons in a way aswell in exchange for engineering support with the TF-X.

    When it comes to the engine that will power the TF-X- it will basically be a derivative of the EJ200 that not only has TV but also improved thrust. Each TF-X engine will have dry thrust of around 78 kN (or 17,500 lbf) with a reheated output of around 120 kN (or 27,000 lbw). The Turks have already stated that the TF-X will also be able to super cruise.

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