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Thread: KF-X/IF-X & TF-X for Europe?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devils Advocate View Post
    The ones that don't have US/European components won't be as good.
    like the j-31 right

  2. #32
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    http://www.defenseworld.net/news/168...m#.WDMOgNJ97IU

    Pakistan to join with Turkey in developing TFX.

    a bit telling that they chose to work with Turkey on a plane that may likely never materialize

    over

    the JF-31 which is actually built.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sign View Post
    Maybe France and Germany will do it after all in 2025-2040, Gripen E is good enough for Sweden (with complement of UCAV) until 2040 or even longer.
    The rest will stuck to there 4 gen upgrades, until 2040, maybe a stealth UCAV complement i think.
    Having recently talked with industrials, they doubt that UK will purchase final FCAS product (they believe they are involved in mainly to build technology brics). On the other hand, Germany (which is not a F-35 client) seem greedy to step in.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Y-20 Bacon View Post
    like the j-31 right
    FC-31 (not inducted in PLAAF so no J)

  5. #35
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    BAE confirmed in TFX deal today:

    bae-systems-signs-heads-of-agreement-for-a-future-contract-with-turkish-aerospace-industries-for-tf-x-programme

  6. #36
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    Britain and Turkey signed a defense deal worth more than 100 million pounds on Saturday to develop Turkish fighter jets, opening the way to deeper cooperation over the lifetime of the project.

    In Ankara to strengthen ties with Turkey as she navigates Britain's departure from the European Union, Prime Minister Theresa May hailed the deal, saying it showed "that Britain is a great, global, trading nation and that we are open for business".

    The deal, announced by May and Turkish Prime Minister Binali Yildirim, involves BAE Systems and TAI (Turkish Aerospace Industries) working together to develop the TF-X Turkish fighter program
    Thinking of the techno-political aspects of this deal (Turkey needs technology input from an acceptable foreign country), I can believe something could come of this. UK would probably like the option of ordering a non-F35 "strings-free" stealth aircraft in a decade or so. However, is 100 million or so a real commitment to harnessing BaE Systems? How serious is Turkey's TF-X Turkish fighter program?
    Sum ergo cogito

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spitfire9 View Post
    Thinking of the techno-political aspects of this deal (Turkey needs technology input from an acceptable foreign country), I can believe something could come of this. UK would probably like the option of ordering a non-F35 "strings-free" stealth aircraft in a decade or so. However, is 100 million or so a real commitment to harnessing BaE Systems? How serious is Turkey's TF-X Turkish fighter program?
    I called it some time ago.. TF-X will end up basically being a mid-weight stealth aircraft with Eurofighter guts.

    I think it's more apparent for the UK to do it with out the EU or US, now that May and Trump seemed to disagree on foreign policy.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geo View Post
    KF-X/IF-X & TF-X for Europe?

    Attachment 216403Attachment 216404

    There are many indications, that (results of the) projects KF-X/IF-X & TF-X can be a very good alternatives for future air forces of European countries in 2030s and later.

    Because:

    - there will be no other alternative to F-35 for NATO/western countries

    - both should be more affordable than F-35

    - both will be full NATO compatibile

    - both will use results of European R&D and can help and bring benefits (and employees) for European industry in many areas (SAAB, Eurojet etc.)

    - many European countries will need relatively cheap and affordable replacement for 4th generation fighters in 2030s and later, for example: Finland, Sweden, Spain, Portugal, Greece, Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary, Romania, (Germany? )…


    (BTW both fighters could have good export potential: KF-X/IF-X especially in Southeast Asia and Pacific region – Indonesia, Philippines, Malaysia, Thailand, Singapore… – and TF-X in Middle East and Gulf states like Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait, Qatar, Jordan, Morocco and…Azerbaijan of course.)


    Geo
    This is complicated. Lockheed is a quasi superstate entity. They have people in defense departments. It is going to be really really hard for these companies to penetrate markets

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by obligatory View Post
    Yes, i too don't think there will be a new European fighter until ~2040,
    A2G UCAV from 2025-2030.
    Just goes to show that the EU really isn't scared of Russia. Because if they really did see it as a threat, they would want to counter the 100+ Raptor equivalents stationed all over the Russian federation.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spitfire9 View Post
    Thinking of the techno-political aspects of this deal (Turkey needs technology input from an acceptable foreign country), I can believe something could come of this. UK would probably like the option of ordering a non-F35 "strings-free" stealth aircraft in a decade or so. However, is 100 million or so a real commitment to harnessing BaE Systems? How serious is Turkey's TF-X Turkish fighter program?
    At this early stage, I'd say 100 million is a hefty commitment. This is a pretty big indictment on the F 35 arrangement.

  11. #41
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    Alternatively, its a great way for BAE to keep a team working on an LO manned design as it waits for the UK to decide its plans for the future.

  12. #42
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    To admit, as long as the political situation does not change, I hope Germany will block any sale of the EJ-200.
    ...

    He was my North, my South, my East and West,
    My working week and my Sunday rest,
    My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
    I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

    The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
    Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
    Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
    For nothing now can ever come to any good.
    -------------------------------------------------
    W.H.Auden (1945)

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Y-20 Bacon View Post
    I called it some time ago.. TF-X will end up basically being a mid-weight stealth aircraft with Eurofighter guts.

    I think it's more apparent for the UK to do it with out the EU or US, now that May and Trump seemed to disagree on foreign policy.
    it may also attract investments from countries like Qatar. I don't see that much urgency from Turkey for F-35.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deino View Post
    To admit, as long as the political situation does not change, I hope Germany will block any sale of the EJ-200.
    Is Germany that much capable once Persian Gulf join Turkey in military projects.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSR View Post
    Is Germany that much capable once Persian Gulf join Turkey in military projects.
    You mean to keep and hold political pressure to withhold that sale or in military sense ?
    ...

    He was my North, my South, my East and West,
    My working week and my Sunday rest,
    My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
    I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

    The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
    Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
    Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
    For nothing now can ever come to any good.
    -------------------------------------------------
    W.H.Auden (1945)

  16. #46
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    Rolls Royce owns the technology behind EJ200. Germany doesn't have much influence in the transfer. I find the timing convenient with the Brexit. Almost as soon as political maneuvers delayed the exit we see a rush to send sensitive technologies abroad. Almost like the bleeding hasn't yet stopped because the wound is much deeper than was originally diagnosed. The UK is finding itself inundated with greed - or is it sabotage - just trying to undermine it's future. Turkey isn't unlikely to re-export these sensitive products to countries unfriendly to UK interests. If nothing else, they've shown a penchant to hate the UK in every way except for to its face.

    I would certainly hate to see EJ200 technology in Russian or Chinese aircraft. I never liked them in Saudi aircraft, either, but now they are all over the gulf states.
    Go Huskers!

  17. #47
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    Amen to this ... and the next step is to end the arms embargo against China?
    ...

    He was my North, my South, my East and West,
    My working week and my Sunday rest,
    My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
    I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

    The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
    Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
    Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
    For nothing now can ever come to any good.
    -------------------------------------------------
    W.H.Auden (1945)

  18. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deino View Post
    You mean to keep and hold political pressure to withhold that sale or in military sense ?
    yes. corporate Germany is totally bankrupt and corrupt. they need these Middleastern investors. Both UK / France/US has been selling there for decades and I bet there will be Germanic parts or industrial machinery used in them.

  19. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSR View Post
    yes. corporate Germany is totally bankrupt and corrupt. they need these Middleastern investors. Both UK / France/US has been selling there for decades and I bet there will be Germanic parts or industrial machinery used in them.
    Not really sure what You are smoking but even if I wont deny this in comparison to other countries I'm sure corruption is at quite a comparable low level ... hint, hint a bit further to the East, Middle-East or so !
    ...

    He was my North, my South, my East and West,
    My working week and my Sunday rest,
    My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
    I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

    The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
    Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
    Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
    For nothing now can ever come to any good.
    -------------------------------------------------
    W.H.Auden (1945)

  20. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deino View Post
    Not really sure what You are smoking but even if I wont deny this in comparison to other countries I'm sure corruption is at quite a comparable low level ... hint, hint a bit further to the East, Middle-East or so !
    comparable low level?. its just invisible in ordinary life to those who don't understand, the bad quality products (no long term reliability), billions in pollution fines, (hint Chinese hasn't put fines on same scale as US despite China biggest VW group market), banking system that is risk exposed to trillions. on top that nearly every German product has parts made outside that country that make the German industrial system open to blackmail to those third countries whether its Romania or Poland all the way to Mexico or US with more than 10% Airbus parts. Germany will make EU so poor that every country in Europe will look for exports/investments and tourism inflow from outside Europe. forget about any kind of military power.

  21. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrmalaya View Post
    Alternatively, its a great way for BAE to keep a team working on an LO manned design as it waits for the UK to decide its plans for the future.
    The amount of money involved clearly says that the UK industry won't sell its nuggets there (and anyway, the Turks are proud and capable enough to have dismiss such offer). They are providing insight, know-how and gain experience in the same time without any UK taxpayer resource. It's sound more like a good deal given that the UK won't field a fully nationally designed manned stealth aircraft in a foreseeable future
    .
    Last edited by TomcatViP; 30th January 2017 at 00:00.

  22. #52
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    Yes that is all true. However, whilst BAE is not shipping Replica over to Turkey, I think it would be less interesting to them as a company if the Turks wanted help with a turbo prop transport or similar.

    Fundamentally they will be hungry to keep as many people as possible working on projects which will help in the future.

    As to the rest, I am happy to keep on topic.

  23. #53
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    If I were BAE, I would have put my money with one of the Asian projects if possible. Turkey is more susceptible to political unrest that will lead to money and brain drain.

  24. #54
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    ...whereas the Asian projects are either dead ducks or US linked.

    The UK and Turkey have a long history together and just because the current president of Turkey is engaged in questionable domestic/foreign policies, that doesn't put him in a different category to other UK partners around the world.

  25. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by KGB View Post
    If I were BAE, I would have put my money with one of the Asian projects if possible. Turkey is more susceptible to political unrest that will lead to money and brain drain.
    The Turkish MOD and TAI are payinng for consulting services to BAE, what "money and brain drain" would this last one possibly incur?

  26. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Y-20 Bacon View Post
    I called it some time ago.. TF-X will end up basically being a mid-weight stealth aircraft with Eurofighter guts.

    I think it's more apparent for the UK to do it with out the EU or US, now that May and Trump seemed to disagree on foreign policy.
    Eurofighter guts, airframe built in Turkey, & some Turkish avionics & other internal systems.
    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
    Justinian

  27. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sintra View Post
    The Turkish MOD and TAI are payinng for consulting services to BAE, what "money and brain drain" would this last one possibly incur?
    He maybe referring to brain drain in Turkey where no one left to implement the project. You can see that poor performance of Turkey in Syria. They lack both the pilots and the bombs.

  28. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadRat View Post
    Rolls Royce owns the technology behind EJ200. Germany doesn't have much influence in the transfer. I find the timing convenient with the Brexit. Almost as soon as political maneuvers delayed the exit we see a rush to send sensitive technologies abroad. Almost like the bleeding hasn't yet stopped because the wound is much deeper than was originally diagnosed. The UK is finding itself inundated with greed - or is it sabotage - just trying to undermine it's future. Turkey isn't unlikely to re-export these sensitive products to countries unfriendly to UK interests. If nothing else, they've shown a penchant to hate the UK in every way except for to its face.

    I would certainly hate to see EJ200 technology in Russian or Chinese aircraft. I never liked them in Saudi aircraft, either, but now they are all over the gulf states.
    Ok about the timing (how long was it ago when UK was shouting at turkish "dictator?) but i do not think we do know the exact repartition of EJ 200.

  29. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by halloweene View Post
    but i do not think we do know the exact repartition of EJ 200.
    "FiatAvio is primarily responsible for the low-pressure (LP) shaft and turbine, while ITP manufactures the convergent/divergent nozzle and bypass duct. MTU is responsible for the LP and high-pressure (HP) compressors, and R-R has the combustion system, HP turbine and intermediate casing."

    Cheers

  30. #60
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    Some details about the programme:

    1. Aircraft serial production expected to start in 2030

    2. Turkish Airforce will buy 250 aircraft to replace F-16s

    3. RAF plan to modernise its Eurofighter fleet with TF-X avionics

    4. New engine to developed based on EJ200 design by RR for TF-X

    http://m.haberturk.com/ekonomi/tekno...si-getirecegiz

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