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Thread: Navies news from around the world -V

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    Navies news from around the world -V

    Nick Ashwell-Kennedy
    @ashwellkennedy

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    Nick Ashwell-Kennedy
    @ashwellkennedy

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    http://www.indracompany.com/en/notic...-more-than-10m

    Indra will provide Pegaso radar signal detection system for Indonesian Submarine.

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    Belgian Navy orders 2 new patrol vessels from SOCARENAM

    http://www.mil.be/def/news/index.asp?LAN=nl&ID=3694


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    The Project 667 class boat (NATO Delta 4).

    Missile Sub Rejoins Russia’s Northern Fleet After Refit

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    Last voyage for the Spanish Principe de Asturias

    http://www.meretmarine.com/fr/conten...rine-espagnole

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    Unhappy

    Quote Originally Posted by Glendora View Post
    Last voyage for the Spanish Principe de Asturias

    http://www.meretmarine.com/fr/conten...rine-espagnole
    Can't believe there isn't even a token effort to attempt and sell her ....

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    There may have been, but I expect all enquiries will have been met with a complete lack of interest, & the same for the Invincible class. No customers = no sale.
    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
    Justinian

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    Quote Originally Posted by swerve View Post
    There may have been, but I expect all enquiries will have been met with a complete lack of interest, & the same for the Invincible class. No customers = no sale.
    DONATE her to as a museum ship.....

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    Museum ships cost a lot to keep. Offers have been turned down, because the intended recipients can't afford to accept a free ship, & it's very unlikely that there's anyone who can afford to take PdA.

    Dedalo was given away as a museum ship, but was eventually scrapped because the recipients couldn't afford to keep her.
    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
    Justinian

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    After the Italian task force composed by aircraft-carrier Cavour, destroyers Duilio and Durand de la Penne, frigate Zeffiro, and auxiliary ship Stromboli exercise with NATO partners in the East Mediterranean (English text at the bottom of the page), the Cavour and Duilio moved further East to train with Israeli missile boats ISN Romach and ISN Herev (sorry no English text yet, but the image gallery at the official Italian Navy could be decent, if viewed at full screen. Note the Harrier with the special colors below).

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Glendora; 15th February 2013 at 18:50.

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    Quote Originally Posted by swerve View Post
    Museum ships cost a lot to keep.
    true. the US is really the only nation that has bothered to spend the money to preserve a decent amount of its 20th century capital ships as museums:


    USS Hornet - Essex class Aircraft carrier
    USS Intrepid - Essex class Aircraft carrier
    USS Lexington - Essex class Aircraft carrier
    USS Midway - Midway class Aircraft carrier
    USS Yorktown - Essex class Aircraft carrier

    USS Alabama - South Dakota class Battleship
    USS Iowa - Iowa class Battleship
    USS Massachusetts - South Dakota Class Battleship
    USS Missouri - Iowa class Battleship
    USS New Jersey - Iowa class Battleship
    USS North Carolina - North Carolina class Battleship
    USS Texas - New York class Battleship
    USS Wisconsin - Iowa class Battleship

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    Very nice article on Mer et Marine on the Chevalier Paul and Horizon Class.

    Too bad it's only in French, but the pictures are quite good and enjoyable for any language speaker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anixtu View Post
    Something other than F-76. 'Diesel' in marine engineering terms can cover a real multitude of sins, from HFO to MGO.

    The answer is to make the LHDs engines compatible with whatever the standard Russian Navy fuel is.
    From: http://forum.keypublishing.com/showp...9&postcount=18

    Mistrals have 3 Wärtsilä diesels-alternators 16 V32 (6.2 MW) + 1 Wärtsilä Vaasa auxiliary diesel-alternator 18V200 (3 MW), powering 2 Rolls-Royce Mermaid azimuth thrusters (2 × 7 MW), 2 5-bladed propellers

    Magadan is a Russian icebreaker completed in 1982. Like several other icebreakers on the list (e.g. Kapitan Khlebnikov, Kapitan Dranitsyn, Krasin, Admiral Makarov), she was built by Wärtsilä Helsinki New Shipyard, in Finland. She is powered by 4 × Wärtsilä 8R32 (4 × 2,390 kW) driving two shafts, 4-bladed controllable pitch propellers.

    Why would the Wartsila diesels in Mistral run on something different than the Wartsila diesels in the icebreakers?

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    Exactly!

    This is about internal turf wars in the Russian government and defence sector and the perceived loss of face buying a foreign ship.

    Russia can specify what fuel grade they want to use and Wartsila via DCNS will have to make the changes to the injectors, engine software and piping to accommodate!
    Because sometimes in life we need a bit of fun

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXNAp3mKepc

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanshan View Post
    Why would the Wartsila diesels in Mistral run on something different than the Wartsila diesels in the icebreakers?
    The Wartsila diesels in merchant ships generally run on different fuels from those in warships. Why not those in French amphibs and Russian auxiliaries?

    The Mistrals for France would be specified for F-76 compatibility. The icebreakers for whatever the USSR wanted at the time, quite possibly a heavier or otherwise different grade from F-76. Whatever, it is likely to be fuel with different characteristics and the Mistrals for Russia will have to be modified to be fully compatible with standard Russian naval fuel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anixtu View Post
    The Wartsila diesels in merchant ships generally run on different fuels from those in warships. Why not those in French amphibs and Russian auxiliaries?

    The Mistrals for France would be specified for F-76 compatibility. The icebreakers for whatever the USSR wanted at the time, quite possibly a heavier or otherwise different grade from F-76. Whatever, it is likely to be fuel with different characteristics and the Mistrals for Russia will have to be modified to be fully compatible with standard Russian naval fuel.
    I believe the engines I mentioned both belong to the Wärtsilä 32 series.
    http://www.wartsila.com/en/engines/m...nes/wartsila32

    W32 : Medium-speed engines. Proven and reliable heavy fuel technology available for a wide range of application types
    http://www.wartsila.com/en/engines

    SEE: http://www.brownsequipment.com/files...iles/12338.pdf
    (Contains Fuel specification)

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    Quote Originally Posted by steely dan View Post
    true. the US is really the only nation that has bothered to spend the money to preserve a decent amount of its 20th century capital ships as museums:


    USS Hornet - Essex class Aircraft carrier
    USS Intrepid - Essex class Aircraft carrier
    USS Lexington - Essex class Aircraft carrier
    USS Midway - Midway class Aircraft carrier
    USS Yorktown - Essex class Aircraft carrier

    USS Alabama - South Dakota class Battleship
    USS Iowa - Iowa class Battleship
    USS Massachusetts - South Dakota Class Battleship
    USS Missouri - Iowa class Battleship
    USS New Jersey - Iowa class Battleship
    USS North Carolina - North Carolina class Battleship
    USS Texas - New York class Battleship
    USS Wisconsin - Iowa class Battleship
    mmm, government waste.

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    Wanshan,

    We are at risk of going around in circles on this. Based on the fuel spec you linked to, those engines are capable of burning the thickest, nastiest residual fuel oils, as you would expect from a marine diesel engine. Western navies use high quality distillate fuels because those are compatible with Western gas turbines. I'm not pretending to know what the standard Russian naval fuel is, but I wouldn't expect it to be identical to F-76. Russia may use different grades in different engine types: distillate in GTs, residuals in diesels and steam turbine plants, as at least some Western navies did in the past.

    Are Mistrals, off the shelf, as specified for France, compatible with standard Russian naval fuels: I've no idea, but the Russian deputy PM says not. Is that plausible: yes. Can the engines fitted to Mistrals be made to be compatible with standard Russian navy fuels: yes.

    For example, if Russian practice is to use residual fuels, these require heating in the tanks to get the oil warm enough to flow. Mistrals are almost certainly not fitted with heated tanks as standard as it isn't necessary when you are burning F-76.

    Am I off on a silly tack here and you actually know what the standard Russian naval fuels are?

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    It's just Rogozin blowing smoke ( no pun intended ), guarantee you he doesn't actually know anything about the specific fuels involved.
    http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/9098/rsz11rsz3807.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by TR1 View Post
    It's just Rogozin blowing smoke ( no pun intended ), guarantee you he doesn't actually know anything about the specific fuels involved.
    its some misquoting.
    http://www.itar-tass.com/en/c32/640969.html
    MOSCOW, February 5 (Itar-Tass) – Russia’s Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin has explained his earlier pronouncements that Russian-made fuels cannot be used by the helicopter carriers Mistral.

    “As a matter of fact, the “news” about fuels for Mistral is not appropriate, my words should have been quoted rather than interpreted,” he wrote in his Twitter microblog late on Tuesday.

    “Russia will fulfill its contract liabilities to the French partners on the first two helicopter carriers,” he stressed. “All unexpectedly arising problem issues will be tackled at the Russian-French consultations on military technical cooperation on February 14-15.”

    The defence industry commission, according to Rogozin, has asked military and industrial experts to report about the fitness of Mistral systems to Russia’s standards and conditions. After the commission presents such a report, all necessary measures will be taken, including in cooperation with the French partners.

    “The decision about the third and fourth Mistral will be taken based on performance of the first two ones reported from the French shipyards,” he added.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steely dan View Post
    true. the US is really the only nation that has bothered to spend the money to preserve a decent amount of its 20th century capital ships as museums:


    USS Hornet - Essex class Aircraft carrier
    USS Intrepid - Essex class Aircraft carrier
    USS Lexington - Essex class Aircraft carrier
    USS Midway - Midway class Aircraft carrier
    USS Yorktown - Essex class Aircraft carrier

    USS Alabama - South Dakota class Battleship
    USS Iowa - Iowa class Battleship
    USS Massachusetts - South Dakota Class Battleship
    USS Missouri - Iowa class Battleship
    USS New Jersey - Iowa class Battleship
    USS North Carolina - North Carolina class Battleship
    USS Texas - New York class Battleship
    USS Wisconsin - Iowa class Battleship
    Quote Originally Posted by Rii View Post
    mmm, government waste.
    Now actually pay attention to reality, Rii.

    US law prohibits the Federal government from spending any money on preserving/displaying those ships, although the USN retains ownership.

    They are paid for and run by private organizations, using private funds... unless a state or local government chooses to make a "single-instance" contribution for a specific non-recurring expense (like the State of Iowa did to get BB-61 kick-started out of mothballs and into LA harbor).

    In addition, the funding plans for these ships cannot include continuing payments from any government, even state/local, unless that government receives "return value"... such as an Emergence Response agency leasing space on a museum ship to use for a communications center.

    So not government waste... just individuals and corporate sponsors spending their own money how they want it spent!


    (EDIT: I forgot "the great exception"... there is always one, isn't there... and of course Texans will be involved!

    BB-35 USS Texas is not owned by the USN... ownership was transferred to the State of Texas in 1948.
    "The Battleship Texas" is owned and operated by the State of Texas, Texas Parks and Wildlife Department.

    She is the only ship on that list to receive regular, continued, and significant tax money for her upkeep and operation... but it is not Federal money, but Texas State funds.}
    Last edited by Bager1968; 28th February 2013 at 21:34.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anixtu View Post
    Wanshan,

    We are at risk of going around in circles on this. Based on the fuel spec you linked to, those engines are capable of burning the thickest, nastiest residual fuel oils, as you would expect from a marine diesel engine. Western navies use high quality distillate fuels because those are compatible with Western gas turbines. I'm not pretending to know what the standard Russian naval fuel is, but I wouldn't expect it to be identical to F-76. Russia may use different grades in different engine types: distillate in GTs, residuals in diesels and steam turbine plants, as at least some Western navies did in the past.

    Are Mistrals, off the shelf, as specified for France, compatible with standard Russian naval fuels: I've no idea, but the Russian deputy PM says not. Is that plausible: yes. Can the engines fitted to Mistrals be made to be compatible with standard Russian navy fuels: yes.

    For example, if Russian practice is to use residual fuels, these require heating in the tanks to get the oil warm enough to flow. Mistrals are almost certainly not fitted with heated tanks as standard as it isn't necessary when you are burning F-76.

    Am I off on a silly tack here and you actually know what the standard Russian naval fuels are?
    From what I read, Russian fuel quality is relatively poor and inconsistent. Western diesel engines may not tolerate this. But I would think that is a different issue from the effects of COLD (e.g. gelling, waxing). Apparently, fuel on a ship will not get colder than the water sorrounding the ship (regardless of air temp) and the water around a ship will rarely be below 0 deg C.

    MDO (Marine diesel oil) - A blend of heavy gasoil that may contain very small amounts of black refinery feed stocks, but has a low viscosity up to 12 cSt so it need not be heated for use in internal combustion engines. Marine diesel oil contains some heavy fuel oil, unlike regular diesels. Also, marine fuel oils sometimes contain waste products. Mazut is a residual fuel oil often derived from Russian petroleum sources and is either blended with lighter petroleum fractions or burned directly in specialized boilers and furnaces.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_oil

    Russia is cementing its status as Europe’s foremost diesel supplier as President Vladimir Putin seeks to shore up economic growth with record investment in the refining industry.Russia is improving fuels quality to safeguard its Western export market and take advantage of crude output that’s risen to a post-Soviet record.
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...oom-peaks.html

    The fuel oil originating from Eastern Europe in particular, Russia and Ukraine, is typically high sulphur bunker quality. Bunker fuel is technically any type of fuel oil used aboard ships.
    http://www.enxsa.com/fueloil.html

    "In addition, we are helped by the Company's brand, which is now well known throughout the world," Shirshov notes. "The quality of the LUKOIL fuel is confirmed by multiple testing by various foreign companies and is not doubted by anyone. And our clients know that we work with a single fuel supplier - LUKOIL's own plants."

    This was the deciding factor behind the company's refueling the Dutch frigate HMS Van Amstel during the St. Petersburg International Maritime Defense Show 2011 this summer. LUKOIL-BUNKER had previously, too, served international regattas and naval vessels entering the Neva and the Gulf of Finland. Here, however, the task was a more difficult one: it was not simply a matter of fuel quality; the fuel had to meet the specifications of a NATO naval vessel - Naval Distillate Fuel F-76. The characteristics (specifications) of LUKOIL fuel comply fully with the standards required by other countries. This first and most important formal barrier was overcome comparatively easily, but it was followed by other "bureaucratic" though quite natural barriers under the circumstances: refueling of foreign warships involves an additional series of legal, customs and immigration formalities. As a result, such operations consume a lot of time and labor.

    Even so, Shirshov notes, the company is prepared to refuel foreign naval vessels in the future, too, as they periodically visit Russian ports to take part in various international events.
    http://www.oilru.com/or/49/1040/
    Last edited by Wanshan; 28th February 2013 at 22:25.

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    MDO is probably not relevant. F-76 is closer to MGO. Marine diesel engines more often burn HFO. HFO has to be heated to flow in temperate climates, never mind cold ones.

    Interesting that LUKOIL appears to be able to supply F-76, but do they produce it routinely? Regardless, logistics common sense says that you make the Mistrals burn the standard fuel, not supply them with something special that isn't used by or required for any of your other units. What are the standard Russian Navy fuels?

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    Quote Originally Posted by steely dan View Post
    true. the US is really the only nation that has bothered to spend the money to preserve a decent amount of its 20th century capital ships as museums:
    And even US can barely afford all those. USS Olympia is on her last legs and I gather several others are in trouble.

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    Bilateral Exercise at sea among NATO and Russian Federation in counter piracy operations

    From the official Italian Navy website:
    On 26 February, in the Gulf of Aden, the boarding team composed by the italian San Marco regiment personnel and assault forces of the Russian Federation, have had the opportunity to train in anti-piracy activities as part of a bilateral exercise between NATO and Russia.

    The event, planned as a result of cooperation agreements signed last December by the NATO - Russia Council (NRC) and recent meetings at sea between the two naval forces, marked the effective achievement of full interoperability in counter-piracy activities in Indian Ocean.

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