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Thread: Liberation.

  1. #1
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    Liberation.

    Sixty eight years ago today, the Red Army liberated Auschwitz.
    What they found there (and of course in other places too) changed the way we view the World.
    Don't ever let anyone try and convince you that Nazism had any good points--it didn't..!!
    It is better to be born a beggar than a fool.

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    I think it's important to remember these events, more now than ever. There are various parties who would have us believe the whole thing was a conspiracy, but this must never be allowed.

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    I visited that awful place a few months ago. These dreadful events must never be forgotten.

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    never shall they be forgotten, to those who were brave enough to tell their stories so that generations could keep those memories alive, we thank you

    its still hard to believe that such monstrous humans could exist and commit such atrocities, makes me feel sick to think

    rest in peace to those millons affected by those actions

    id like to say i hope nothing as bad as the holocaust happens again, but i already know it does in some countries..maybe not to such an extent but it does happen, Rwanda for example
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Marlee View Post

    id like to say i hope nothing as bad as the holocaust happens again, but i already know it does in some countries..maybe not to such an extent but it does happen, Rwanda for example
    It might and sadly you are correct and neither should we blind our eyes to the as savage but more prolonged genocide in the Soviet Union under Stalin and in China under Mao and others, just because it was inaccessible and out of the public gaze.
    Charlie

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy in Beds View Post
    ....Don't ever let anyone try and convince you that Nazism had any good points--it didn't..!!
    You mean apart from huge advances in medicine, rocketry, aerodynamics & jet propulsion, submarines, movie-making, welfare programmes, the Volkswagen Beetle, Law & Order, animal welfare, Hugo Boss uniforms, autobahns, and strong leadership?
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    But facts are facts and Al is right. I hope we are not so blinkered that someone's bad points obliterate their good points.
    Charlie

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    Oh, you have got to be kidding!!!
    WA$.

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    Edgar, I have nothing to apologise for - you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs. There was a huge rush by ALL the allies to secure the technological and medicinal advances made by the Reich. Modern aviation medicine still uses the data gleaned from those experiments, distasteful or not!
    The way you go on you'd think homo sapiens was an endangered species, or that the Nazis were the only people who killed anyone...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creaking Door View Post
    Oh, you have got to be kidding!!!
    Of course I am not. Presumably you do not credit the Germans with those developments.
    Charlie

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    Al, I think it's important to realise that the things you list aren't achievements of Nazism, they are achievements of German science and industry - and even then a great many of these things were tainted by the use of slave labour of Jews, Homosexuals, Gypsies, POWs and more.
    "Quicquid agas age"

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    It was the Nazis who led (and funded!) German science and industry, so they did achieve it. Do you think science and industry would have made all those leaps by themselves?
    You could also argue then that the US government under John Kennedy had nothing to do with sending a man to the moon.
    Slavery and sweatshops are still alive and well, and it's not so long ago the Brits were the best at it...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al View Post
    You mean apart from huge advances in medicine, rocketry, aerodynamics & jet propulsion, submarines, movie-making, welfare programmes, the Volkswagen Beetle, Law & Order, animal welfare, Hugo Boss uniforms, autobahns, and strong leadership?
    whats to say that had the nazi's not existed, that Jewish/polish/Russian etc scientists,Jewish/polish/Russian etc doctors ETC would not have made great discoveries and inventions like those of the nazis...

    without having to suffer such heartache and pain because of it?

    or anyone else who was involved in the holocaust for that matter
    Project Oblivion-Coming Soon

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    Re 5

    Charlie and Al are, of course, correct. When we remind ourselves about the savagery of WW2, we should remember also that German innovation and efficiency were the first in human history to industrialise mass murder. Mass production of corpses is probably the most significant aspect of German industrialisation of this period.

    A most notable feature in the story of any nation and one that will carry an anguished resonance into whatever future awaits Germany. It is not possible for the German people ever to escape responsibility.

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    I think we are all, only too aware of the first point.

    And no person or peoples now living who were not living when acts of savagery were committed need feel any responsibility whatsoever for the deeds of their predecessors. I disagree with the current vogue of apologising for things in the past. It is utterly meaningless. You cannot apologise for something for which you have no reponsilibility.
    Last edited by Moggy C; 28th January 2013 at 17:00. Reason: Pointless quote
    Charlie

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    Charlie

    It's not for nothing that there is a Biblical quotation that supports my contention: "The sins of the father are visited upon the next generation...."

    There are some events in human history that are just too terrible to be expunged by the passage of time. The subject under discussion is one of them. You have alluded to others. The barbarities committed by Stalin and his henchmen were by a wide margin of body count, much much worse than the Holocaust.

    The atrocities committed by the Japanese in WW2 are as wicked as any that I know about, limited only by scale.

    I understand your statement regarding the present generation of Germans and their remote connection with the events of the past. However, we have a concept in law of corporate responsibility. A nation can be compared to a corporation.

    The miasma and stigma of the Holocaust hangs over Germany like an invisible shroud. The guilt that is attached will be with this country until the end of time, as indeed, will that attached to Russia and Japan.

    You might think it strange when i write that I like and admire Germans. As I've said before, the English are closely related. That does not admit of exculpation. Yes, we must forgive, if we don't offer forgiveness, we can't in our turn expect it. What we must not do, is ever forget.

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    John

    We are free to accept or reject quotations from the bible.

    Expunging events has nothing to do with apologising for them over and over again by people who had no responsibility for them. If a nation , to use your analogy, operates years later with a new management and new Articles of Association it is an entirely new body.

    The guilt you talk about is misconceived and totally unhelpful to those who are rebuilding the nation from its past. Perhaps you feel guilt for the British concentration camps in 19th century South Africa. I don't.

    The Germans you and I know neither need nor should expect our forgiveness. That is sanctimonious and patronising to a great democratic nation, which has, with Japan, shown enormous courage in rebuilding and creating a nation which in many ways is an example to the British.

    Neither they nor we will forget what happened but that's as it should be and all it should be.
    Last edited by Moggy C; 28th January 2013 at 16:59. Reason: Pointless quote again!
    Charlie

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    New management? But still under corporate and collective responsibility. A long established concept in legal jurisprudence.

    You have your opinion and I have mine. Let us see how - from those bothered to answer - many Forum members choose which argument.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Green View Post
    New management? But still under corporate and collective responsibility. A long established concept in legal jurisprudence.

    You have your opinion and I have mine. Let us see how - from those bothered to answer - many Forum members choose which argument.
    How long does corporate and collective responsibility last? Should the Italians be held responsible for the atrocities and slavery the Romans perpetrated over the known world? The Danes, Swedes and Norwegians for the Viking's excesses? The Brits for their part in the slavery trade?

    In an another few hundred years time, history will look back on Nazi Germany in an entirely different fashion, just as the Romans and Vikings are grudgingly admired today. Don't forget the Brits vilified and demonised the Spanish and French while the battles with them were still a living memory.
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    Al

    Here we go yet again. Moral equivalence! One outrage cancels out the other. How in the name of balance and commonsense you can equate the events of the Holocaust with those events you mention quite simply does defy belief.

    I am not one of those for whom the Holocaust requires a daily act of breast beating. I do not believe that we require a special day set aside for an Act of Remembrance.

    What I do believe, is that this monstrous savagery perpetrated by a nation that was believed to stand at the center of European Christian civilized society could ever live down the shame and ignominy of this act of unparalled barbarity. Alongside Stalin's gulags and famine induced massacres of the 1920s and 30s, the sheer immensity of the destruction of human life results in our dumb, shocked incomprehension. It is impossible to forget.

    Do you seriously think that if this once great nation of England still exists in one thousand years from now, we will not still remember our war dead on Remembrance Sunday?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al View Post
    How long does corporate and collective responsibility last? .
    Precisely. If every member of the corporation is dead and the old corporation has been liquidated, the new corporation has absolutely no responsibility, legal or otherwise for its predecessor's acts. And it would be ridiculous if it did.
    Charlie

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    I don't think anyone expects present day Germans, Japanese or any one else for that matter to wander round in sackcloth and ashes as apology for their forefathers, the reason we must never forget is a warning to all, as to just how savage so called civilised man can be, whether collectively or individually.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Green View Post
    Al

    Here we go yet again. Moral equivalence! One outrage cancels out the other. How in the name of balance and commonsense you can equate the events of the Holocaust with those events you mention quite simply does defy belief.
    No moral equivalence intended. Murder is murder, whether it's one person or six million - it's just a matter of scale.

    What I do believe, is that this monstrous savagery perpetrated by a nation that was believed to stand at the center of European Christian civilized society could ever live down the shame and ignominy of this act of unparalled barbarity. Alongside Stalin's gulags and famine induced massacres of the 1920s and 30s, the sheer immensity of the destruction of human life results in our dumb, shocked incomprehension. It is impossible to forget.
    To me it's entirely comprehensible. It's simply human nature - if one of the world's most civilised nations can produce the Nazis, it can happen to any nation. The dark side of mankind is always there, bubbling just under the surface, only in Nazi Germany those traits and behaviours were looked on with admiration, and given government backing and encouragement.

    Do you seriously think that if this once great nation of England still exists in one thousand years from now, we will not still remember our war dead on Remembrance Sunday?
    By England do you mean Britain? I'm sure war dead will always be remembered, but in a thousand years WW2 will have as much relevance as Agincourt, just another battle amongst hundreds in the 3013 archives...
    Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups!

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    Re 21

    Legal responsibility finished - more or less - with the Nuremburg Tribunal; the moral responsibility lives on forever. It is that, to which I refer.

    The moral responsibility for that which was an affront to civilised conscience during WW2, lies with the people and Government of the Germany and Japan of that time. The collective guilt is carried forward to this day and for all time.

    Ask the few remaining victims.

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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehunt View Post

    And no person or peoples now living who were not living when acts of savagery were committed need feel any responsibility whatsoever for the deeds of their predecessors............. You cannot apologise for something for which you have no reponsilibility.
    In the case of Japan far too few of those responsible for war crimes, including the Emperor, were tried for their actions. Of those receiving prison sentences, none served their full term after America's occupation of Japan ended in the fifties. In fact, those convicted were released 'without stain on their character.' They had blood on their hands but at least their character remained clean.

    For me, it's not so much about apology as acknowledgement. Japanese schoolchildren are taught nothing of their Nation's conduct prior to Hiroshima and Nagasaki but are told that the attacks on those cities were war crimes. The Rape of Nanking, the Bataan Death March, the Hellships, the Burma and Sumatra Railways and the Japanese plans for the final solution to eradicate all trace of PoW's and civilian internees are expunged from the pages of history. I don't feel the need to apologise for slavery, but by the same token I do not deny that it happened.

    Regards,

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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehunt View Post
    Presumably you do not credit the Germans with those developments.
    No, I certainly concede that the German people made advances in many fields under the Nazi party but that wasn’t what I hoped you were kidding about.

    Quote Originally Posted by charliehunt View Post
    I hope we are not so blinkered that someone's bad points obliterate their good points.
    Well, I guess that depends on the magnitude of the ‘bad points’ when balanced against the ‘good points’ doesn’t it; and Nazi Germany had a ‘bad point’ score that would take some beating even by the standards of World War Two. Also no matter how brilliant your contribution to science or engineering it matters what the outcome of that contribution is; this may go a long way to explaining the selective amnesia that seemed to grip large sections of the German population just after the horrors of the war were finally revealed to the wider world.
    WA$.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kev35 View Post
    In fact, those convicted were released 'without stain on their character.' They had blood on their hands but at least their character remained clean.
    Not this again? Whose translation is the "Without stain..." quote from? Source please?

    Quote Originally Posted by kev35
    For me, it's not so much about apology as acknowledgement. Japanese schoolchildren are taught nothing of their Nation's conduct prior to Hiroshima and Nagasaki but are told that the attacks on those cities were war crimes. The Rape of Nanking, the Bataan Death March, the Hellships, the Burma and Sumatra Railways and the Japanese plans for the final solution to eradicate all trace of PoW's and civilian internees are expunged from the pages of history.
    Again, sources please? I personally know that much of what you say is not taught has, and continues to be taught in Japan. Just like all those stories about Japan "never saying sorry", it's not quite as black and white as you seem to want it to be.

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    & in closely related news:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...t-8468800.html

    Eugenics is alive & well...
    If anybody ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me: It's all balls. RJM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oppama View Post
    Not this again? Whose translation is the "Without stain..." quote from? Source please?



    Again, sources please? I personally know that much of what you say is not taught has, and continues to be taught in Japan. Just like all those stories about Japan "never saying sorry", it's not quite as black and white as you seem to want it to be.
    If my Dad wasn't lying in a hospital bed having suffered from a brain haemorrhage I'd find the sources for you (again) Oppama, but I am a little preoccupied at the moment. I've given sources for all the things I've said in the past, feel free to look for them if you feel the need.

    Regards,

    kev35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creaking Door View Post
    No, I certainly concede that the German people made advances in many fields under the Nazi party but that wasn’t what I hoped you were kidding about.

    .
    Well we are agreed about that then, but you had better enlighten me about the second point.
    Charlie

    Keep smiling - it's never as bad as you think!!

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