Role of European Air Forces in an Asian Century

[obligatory]

A few hundred years ago, the only way for a country to increase income was to conquer a rice turf,
today its the worst investment imaginable.
Countries selling weapons have some interest in war mongering,
but other than that, it's a misplaced investment.

[Glendora]

OK,
the discussion about European Air Forces and USA against China in a very hypothetic conflict involved considerations about past and supposedly future conflicts between Germany and/or other Europena powers and Russia.

Before somebody else theorizes a hypothetic friction between, e.g. Spain and the inhabitants of Venus, and presents a thorough analysis of the forces involved, linking it with what happenned in the Gallic Wars, I'd rather shut down my PC.

[Bluewings]

+1 Yep , well said .

Cheers .

[mack8]

Which part is a lie?. Which part deceit and which part propaganda?. What Swerve wrote is factually accurate in every way. If it doesnt sit well with your political agenda I suggest thats something you need to deal with without calling people liars and branding them propagandists!.

Was aiming mostly at the lies and deceit sold to the general population for justifying the invasion of Afghanistan (and others, like Iraq, or the bombing of Lybia etc.), rather than at a person per se, although i won't hesitate to consider as above those who actually promovate and support such despicable lies (and they know who they are).
Anyway enough with OT from me, i'll stay mostly away from this topic, don't want to read the delusions of some characters who dream of a war against China or other "evil" (usually populated by peoples with a different skin colour than white) countries.

[Tempest414]

Europe has on order and coming on line 156 A400m 8 C-17 and 40 tankers of which 30 are MRTT’s which will be a big step up in capability for Europe and a step away from the US

[Bluewings]

mack8 :

NATO should be disbanded at once. Europe should create it's own defence treaty, europeans are more than able to defend themselves. An european defence treaty means a new life for the european defence industry too, stimulating the high-tech developement and creating countless jobs and large amount of revenue. Enough with these corrupt governments selling their countries and their country's independence to the despicable american interests! What in the name of god should we do in Asia, being dragged (or more like forced) by the americans in a war against China, like many delusional individuals in the leadership (not to mention their brainwashed society) of the US dream ?! Are you serious? What did China do to us ?!

While it is said in a rather harsh manner , I tend to agree with you mack8 .
But I have to say that with B. Obama , things are a whole deal better than with previous POTUS and US GoVs .

Cheers .

[swerve]

...
Russian also made ​​mistakes, such as Finnish War of 1939 or Afghanistan in 1979. In most other cases, the Russian war - the defense of Mother Russia.

Interesting how defending Mother Russia resulted in the expansion of its borders from central European Russia in 1500, to extending from Lodz to the Yukon by 1815, & still expanding; the conquest of Crimea, the Caucasus, Central Asia, Finland, the Baltic states, Bessarabia, etc., the disappearance of numerous countries, & the expulsion & in some cases near extermination of numerous non-Russian peoples & their replacement by Russians What one might call very active forward defence. :diablo:

[swerve]

OK,
the discussion about European Air Forces and USA against China in a very hypothetic conflict involved considerations about past and supposedly future conflicts between Germany and/or other Europena powers and Russia.

Before somebody else theorizes a hypothetic friction between, e.g. Spain and the inhabitants of Venus, and presents a thorough analysis of the forces involved, linking it with what happenned in the Gallic Wars, I'd rather shut down my PC.

Nicely said.

Unfortunately, many people see everything through the filters of their own preoccupations. Spanish conquest of Peru? Must be discussed in terms of Russo-German wars! :diablo:

[paralay]

...the disappearance of numerous countries, & the expulsion & in some cases near extermination of numerous non-Russian peoples & their replacement by Russians What one might call very active forward defence. :diablo:

Let's specifically when and where to have won, who were murdered and enslaved the evil Russian, with dates and links.

According to estimates of M. Liubavskii (a specialist in the Russian colonization of the early 20th century) - only about 12% of the territory was annexed by conquest. Mendeleev quoted similar figures. And the population of the annexed territories almost always keep their land. The West was a graveyard of the conquered peoples. Suffice it to recall that almost nothing remains of the many millions of Slavic expansion into the area between the Elbe and the Oder, Pomerania Baltic Slavs, Slavs of Pannonia, the Prussians, the Celts-Brit, was drastically reduced the number of Irish Celtic and Celtic-Gael, assimilated Celtic population of continental Europe. Europeans cross the Atlantic to the New World repeats the same story. From 75 million Indians in a hundred or so years is only about 9 million and the aborigines in Australia again the same, a decrease of 80%

[swerve]

If you are so ignorant of your own history that you don't know, it can only be by choice. If you have changed your mind, & wish to learn what really happened, I suggest you look at the history of the Caucasus & the Crimea for a start.

As for "12% of the area annexed by conquest" - really? What borders are those? Obviously, not those of the USSR, or the Russian Empire.

And 'kept their own land'? Oh dear. Just look at the territory in which Russians are the majority now, & the area in which they were the majority 500 years ago.

[paralay]

To understand who is the real owner of the Crimea, you need to find out who are the Scythians
Let's see
Map of 1720, as you can see here again Russian Crimea. Although officially join the Crimea to Russia in 1783

http://prosvetlenie.net/img/maps/big/tartar7.jpg


Russian names on the map of Germany. How did they get there?
http://lujicajazz.narod.ru/toponimy_podrobno.html

[oleholen]

Just look at the territory in which Russians are the majority now, & the area in which they were the majority 500 years ago.

Do the same with the US

[swerve]

What does the USA have to do with me? I've never even been there. And how is it relevant to false claims about Russia only having fought in self defence?

I see we have here classic diversion tactics (ignore most of the points raised, raise irrelevances, etc), & invincible ignorance. There's none so blind as he who will not see. I think it's time for the ignore button.

[Glendora]

Nicely said.

Unfortunately, many people see everything through the filters of their own preoccupations. Spanish conquest of Peru? Must be discussed in terms of Russo-German wars! :diablo:

Well actually since this message from Swerve the Spanish conquest of Peru was put into this very discussion (Role of European Air Forces in an Asian Century), see this quote:

Europeans cross the Atlantic to the New World repeats the same story. From 75 million Indians in a hundred or so years is only about 9 million

Also somebody succeded almost to call references to the Gallic Wars.

Only the Venusians are missing at the moment. But I am confident enough that somebody will succeed to bring them here soon.

paralay can you make at least a favour to the users of this froum and for the future please try to resize the images that you post here?

Edit: Oh I see, you made it. Thank you!!!

[Jezza]

The only role would be a defense agreement that was in place. EG: Australia required assistance from Briton.
Or old or ex colonies requesting assistance.

[paralay]

Only the Venusians are missing at the moment

The seven archangels are from Venus, it's no secret for those who seek knowledge

[ZuluAlfaKilo]

Anyway enough with OT from me, i'll stay mostly away from this topic, don't want to read the delusions of some characters who dream of a war against China or other "evil" (usually populated by peoples with a different skin colour than white) countries.

The most likely scenarios for conflict in Asia revolve around conflicts between "Asian" nations. Possible examples: North Korea against South Korea and Japan; China and its "renegade province" of Taiwan; or the current territorial dispute between the ASEAN nations and China over the resource rich South China Sea (or between the ASEAN nations themselves), or yet another round of China against Vietnam. So the question might be better framed as what role Europe (I'm not sure what is really meant by that term in this thread) should be able to play in those scenarios, should the wider global poltical and economic framework be threatened or destablized, or there is a fundamental issue of aggression to be dealt with.

With the economic rise of Asia, any serious disputes between those nations will have implications far beyond Asia.

[Tempest414]

I think we have lost our way with this thread with all this talk of they did we did she did rubbish. I think the 3 main questions in the opening statement should read

1) How will Europe fair without US support in strategic -tactical transport and air to air refuelling*ISR, E3, ELINT, SEAD/DEAD

2) Can or will Europe be able to conduct operations without US help.

3) Can Europe project power in say the Pacific if needed in say a policing operation?

My answer is

1) Europe has 156 A400m’s on order plus at this time 45 tankers of which most will be replaced by new MRTT’s the UK also has 8 C-17s plus European air forces have a good number of C130 and smaller transports types, at this time Europe has 25 E-3 and the UK has a good ISTAR capability

2) Europe is more than capable of conducting operations without US help if its politicians stopped point scoring

3) As I said earlier the UK - France and Italy can or will be able to send carrier groups and if Europe had the foresight it could build and operate 1 maybe 2 carriers with each country supplying 1 warship to the European carrier group also once the said MRTT’s and A400m’s are on line troop movement and supply would be essayer

The biggest problem for Europe is its politicians it has the capability and the power but not the unity.

[paralay]

Europe today does not make sense maintain large military forces. Greatest challenges now - small operations in the former colonies, the Americans in their imperial desires and restraining each other.
Great War Europe is not threatened. The main character of the European tragedy, at least the last two hundred years, is now occupied by legislative activity in Moscow.

[Sanem]

3) As I said earlier the UK - France and Italy can or will be able to send carrier groups and if Europe had the foresight it could build and operate 1 maybe 2 carriers with each country supplying 1 warship to the European carrier group also once the said MRTT’s and A400m’s are on line troop movement and supply would be essayer

The biggest problem for Europe is its politicians it has the capability and the power but not the unity.

good post
but I'd consider the biggest problem to be Europe's financial situation
the UK can't afford its carriers, Italy and Spain are in serious trouble, France will be next, and the US really isn't doing much better
not that you need a lot of money to have an effective military: stack up on UAVs and Europe will own any third world (African) country