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Thread: Can anyone rival the Airbus A320 and Boink 737 series?

  1. #1
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    Can anyone rival the Airbus A320 and Boink 737 series?

    It seems that the only ones who are willing to step up to the challenge comes from the east

    Irkut MS-21 and the Comac thingamajig.

    I don't think Embraer or Bomberman are making anything in that size? some of the stretched E series approaches a smaller size A320 I think

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-31 Burrito View Post
    It seems that the only ones who are willing to step up to the challenge comes from the east

    Irkut MS-21 and the Comac thingamajig.
    Not really stepping up to the challenge though are they? Lets face it, they're never going to sell in anything like the numbers that the A320 and 737 have sold, and are continuing to sell...

    -Dazza

  3. #3
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    In an industry where perceptions of safety are critical, it's going to take a long time until one of the big groups moves away from tried and tested Western brands.

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    Think Embraer are closest to becoming the third party in this battle. If they had now, or in the next two-three years, a competent new build aircraft in this class, I think they would do very well. Both the 737NG and A320NEO are both linked to older airframes. A new airframe could probably get 5-10% improvement over their performance.

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    Bombers are making CSeries. Embraer certainly is not going beyond a slight further stretch before 2020 or so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J-31 Burrito View Post
    Irkut MS-21 and the Comac thingamajig.
    Even if they come anywhere near to endanger 320 and 737 that ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

    You can design the crap out of an airplane but you simply cannot anticipate every little problem and tweaks needed to improve operational performance. Huge numbers of 320s and 737s produced so far are guarantee that every little unexpected glitch that could occur so far has already occurred and got rectified.

    Also, tons of stats on operational experience far more valuable than raw technology since Boeing and Airbus know where to look to save customer's time and money.

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    Yes, Bombardier are making the CS300 which competes with the A319 and 737-700.
    It's no surprise, therefore, that easyJet (the largest A319 operator) is deep into negotiations with Bombardier for the type.

    Bombardier (unlike Irkut and Comac) has been able to attract the main-stream airlines such as Korean Air, Lufthansa and Republic (Frontier). Though, surprisingly, not Air Canada who is usually the first to jump on the Bombardier band wagon.

    In 2011 the CEO of Lease Corporation International (LCI) said in an interview with flight global "[the A319] will struggle against the CSeries" as the CS300 "is a purpose-built design for this particular range and capacity, and a far more efficient airplane than the A319".
    Last edited by Matt-100; 23rd January 2013 at 15:36.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt-100 View Post
    Yes, Bombardier are making the CS300 which competes with the A319 and 737-700.
    It's no surprise, therefore, that easyJet (the largest A319 operator) is deep into negotiations with Bombardier for the type.
    I suspect that's got more to do with getting the best possible price for the next batch of Airbuses than anything else.

    A multi-type fleet is anathema to low-cost operators.
    You can't fool owls.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt-100 View Post
    Yes, Bombardier are making the CS300 which competes with the A319 and 737-700.
    It's no surprise, therefore, that easyJet (the largest A319 operator) is deep into negotiations with Bombardier for the type.

    Bombardier (unlike Irkut and Comac) has been able to attract the main-stream airlines such as Korean Air, Lufthansa and Republic (Frontier). Though, surprisingly, not Air Canada who is usually the first to jump on the Bombardier band wagon.

    In 2011 the CEO of Lease Corporation International (LCI) said in an interview with flight global "[the A319] will struggle against the CSeries" as the CS300 "is a purpose-built design for this particular range and capacity, and a far more efficient airplane than the A319".
    hmm indeedy you are right, but could be argued A319 is a small market. I think most orders are going towards the longest varaints of the A320 and 737 that have around 180-200 max passengers.
    I dont think Bombarmen is going to make something that big yet?
    Irkut ad Comac may be that large.
    problem isIrkut is based on an old Yak design

  10. #10
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    Boink?

    Boink 737 is this:
    http://www.airliners.net/photo/Royal...-BBJ/2057086/L

    There have been some talks about Bombardier BJ. Are there any recent news of progress? Or specifics of such a BJ?

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    First, and only as of today, official statement about the Bombardier CSeries business jet was released at the NBAA in october 2011, reported here: Business-jet version of CSeries sparks interest

    Talking about the supremacy of Boeing and Airbus in the NB market, I seriously think that Bombardier has established a seed, just like Airbus did when entered Boeing and McDonnell Douglas market with the A320.
    There is clearly room to grow the CSeries... And it is not a matter of IF Bombardier will launch a CS500 or bigger aircraft... It is a matter of WHEN. Well... the copyright for the brand was already claimed in 2009 (check here CS500 and here CS900).
    Another point is the fact that Bombardier officially included a higher density variant (up to 160 seats) in the project for the CS300 (check here).
    Basically, IMHO, they started with models advertised for the 100-150 seat market (without adding a bigger aircraft) only to keep the two big players quite... and yet the A320neo was clearly launched to kill the CSeries (quoted here) and so came also the MAX, in response to the neo.
    The CSeries is certainly a player to watch closely in the coming years!
    Each evening, stars come out their daylight hiding places... But one of those, is my wingtip, passing over...

  12. #12
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    CSeries is also competing against DC-9, MD-80, MD-90 and Boeing 717. While no one is building them new, Boeing is maintaining them, charging for maintenance, and stands to lose if they are replaced by CSeries (or A320, or B737).

    CS300ER - wingspan 35,1 m, wing area 112,3 square m. Standard 1 class seating 130; MTOW 63 t 322 kg
    MD-87 non-ER - wingspan 32,8 m, wing area also 112,3 square m. Standard 1 class seating 130; MTOW 63 t 503 kg.

    Range with the standard 130 seat payload:
    CS300ER 5460 km
    MD-87 non-ER 4390 km.

    How do the other relevant features compare?

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    Actually Bombardier removed any reference to ER versions and Pratt& Whitney too... so currently there is just a CS300 with nominal range 5460km and no ER versions.
    Anyway, since the comparison comes to CS300 vs MD87, here we have a few more figures (CS300 | MD87):
    Max seating: 149 (160 with additional overwing exits) | 139
    Cargo volume: 30 m^3 | 26.5 m^3
    Cruising spd: Mach 0.78 | Mach 0.76
    Seating: 5 abreast both
    Fuselage width: 3.7m | 3.35m
    CS300 ordered (as of today): 88
    MD87 ordered: 75
    Each evening, stars come out their daylight hiding places... But one of those, is my wingtip, passing over...

  14. #14
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    I see that PW1519 has been invented.

    If there are only 2 versions of CSeries, which of them shall carry PW1519?

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    As far as the official sources go, the PW1519G goes with the CS100, while 21 and 24 versions are both applicable to both versions.
    As of now the first engine to be certified (going through paperwork this week as per The Wall Street Journal) is the PW1524G, which will power the first CSeries Flight Test Vehicles (all CS100).
    Each evening, stars come out their daylight hiding places... But one of those, is my wingtip, passing over...

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    Is it PW1524G that allows CS100 to take off in 1509 m?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
    Is it PW1524G that allows CS100 to take off in 1509 m?
    I guess so... since no specific information has been released about the different engine versions coupled with the aircraft.

    Talking about the main topic, rivaling the two big players, we can add that the Comac C919 is being developed jointly with the CSeries... Its cockpit, electrical system, materials and manuals are reported as "developed in cooperation with Bombardier, to assure commonality with the CSeries"
    latest press release here
    Each evening, stars come out their daylight hiding places... But one of those, is my wingtip, passing over...

  18. #18
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    But would stretched CSeries also compete with C919?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
    But would stretched CSeries also compete with C919?
    Well... theoretically... and just theoretically... (it just passed through my mind)
    The C919 is advertised as a 168-seat platform... let's say a "CS700" based on the CS100 being a 110 seater and CS300 being a 130 seater...
    Bombardier copyrighted the CS500 and CS900 names.... but not a CS700...
    Does this tie up somehow?
    Each evening, stars come out their daylight hiding places... But one of those, is my wingtip, passing over...

  20. #20
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    It seems that the only ones who are willing to step up to the challenge comes from the east
    Yes, but the market for Russian aircraft is not comparable to pre-1991. For me the big difference is that Boeing is supported by USA, and Airbus by the largest countries of the EU. These 2 markets are huge, and lead to enormous contracts, which allow very competitive prices and excellent support facilities. If you have to choose between a Tu-204SM and A320 based on support, is a no brainer.

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    yes indeedy the stretched c series can rival the A320 and Boinker, but according to flight global, the Canadians have denied that they want to enter the 150+ segment, saying they'll leave that to the other two.

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    What is the maximum take-off weight of A318 from a 1500 m runway at sea level, ISA? 63 t?

  23. #23
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    From what I can find online it indeed seems that the MTOW for a 1500m takeoff is around 63 tons (A318).

    Regarding the Bombardier statement "to leave the 150+ seat market to Airbus and Boeing"...
    Well, in this video interview (dated march 2012) Chet Fuller of Bombardier states that as soon as they fulfill the objective of delivering the CS100 and CS300 to customers "on time and on spec" then they'll look at other "bigger" aircraft.
    "It's obvious, we study how to build airplanes, it's what aircraft manufacturers do..."
    He basically made the point with Airbus & Boeing shifting to bigger models (abandoning A318 and B736 with the neo/max) as Bombardier shifted up from the <50 seat market.
    There's another video interview in which he states it but I can't find it right now... I'll search better for it tomorrow....
    Each evening, stars come out their daylight hiding places... But one of those, is my wingtip, passing over...

  24. #24
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    Embraer not interested in joining Irkut, COMAC, and Bomberman in challenging Airbus and Boink?

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