Nigel Farage and the EU

[j_jza80]

That poll stated 53% wanted to leave the EU: http://news.sky.com/story/1042576/po...ron-eu-message

I get many of your points, and there should be a full and fair debate. I don't think that claiming that people shouldn't be entitled to vote because the politicians know best, as Mr Milliband and many Europhiles preach, is the solution though.

I don't think £50m a day is peanuts, and I think that even the suggestion of such is part of the problem we face with our economy. Much of the money we give isn't used for trade. It's used in EU projects.


Many of my problems with the EU can also be levelled at national government, but I see the EU as a political layer that is not required, and costs us both our money and our freedom.

I'm glad that you've benefitted from open borders, but on the whole I would suggest it does us far more harm than good.

Another EU failure: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21206881

[Grey Area]

How's this for an idea?

The government should commission an independent body from outside the EU - an Australian or Canadian university, for example - to undertake an analysis of the pros and cons of EU membership for a) UK industry b) the UK financial sector and c) the ordinary voter.

The results of this analysis can then be issued to everyone eligible to vote in a referendum so that they can at least base their decision on the facts and not on scare stories from politicians and the media.

As I said above, it's far too important a decision for people to play silly buggres.

Funnily enough, I can't find mention of that Daily Express story on any of the major newspaper websites, not even the Daily Telegraph.

[John Green]

Re 54

Grey Area

Well, they wouldn't have much choice. If there is a clear majority in favour of continuing membership, then that is it.

The fact of the matter is and we can't say it enough times, the EU is a deeply unhappy and divided concept. Very few of the people who make up its numbers, like it.

It either requires root and branch reform - and that won't happen - or we should leave. We musn't be afraid to go it alone. We've stood on our own feet for fifteen hundred years, without too much trouble so it's not as tho' we'll greatly miss the 'help and protection' of Mummy and Daddy EU !

The rest of the world including the EU, needs access to a market of over 60 million people. As some of you seem to infer, we have nothing to fear by leaving this tawdry organisation that operates like the Mafia. Ask Marta Andreasson !

[AutoStick]

The Aussie Uni said they'll do it for ten Dollars & a shrink wrap of tinnies. The Canadians ummmed & arrrrred , then asked if we had any old submarines we didnt want !!

[Grey Area]

440ml or 500ml tinnies?

[charliehunt]

It's all far simpler than any of this. It was the aspiration of its founding fathers and carried on by the current EU eurocrats that the nations of Europe should eventually join together as a federal super state. That aspiration has never changed and the goal has become closer with every new treaty.
There will be no fundamental renegotiation - it is not allowed.
There is strong polling evidence that a large minority of voters in the EU do not want a federal Europe but most will never get the chance to express their view.
The simple question is do we wish to be a part of a federal state or not.

[TonyT]

Posted elsewhere



A pretty little girl named Suzy was standing on the pavement in front of her home. Next to her was a basket containing a number of tiny creatures; in her hand was a sign announcing FREE KITTENS.

Suddenly a line of big cars pulled up beside her. Out of the lead car stepped a grinning man.
"Hi there little girl, I'm the leader of the Labour Party, Ed Miliband. What do you have in the basket?" he asked.

"Kittens," little Suzy said.

"How old are they?" asked Miliband.

Suzy replied, "They're so young, their eyes aren't even open yet."

"And what kind of kittens are they?"

"Labour supporters," answered Suzy with a smile.

Miliband was delighted. As soon as he returned to his car, he called his PR chief and told him about the little girl and the kittens.

Recognizing the perfect photo op, the two of them agreed that he should return the next day; and in front of the assembled media, have the girl talk about her discerning kittens.

So the next day, Suzy was again on the pavement with her basket of "FREE KITTENS"

when Milliband's motorcade pulled up, this time followed by vans from BBC, ITV, ABC, CNN and Sky News,

Cameras and audio equipment were quickly set up, then Miliband got out of his limo and walked over to little Suzy.

"Hello, again," he said, "I'd love it if you would tell all my friends out there what kind of kittens you're giving away."

"Yes sir," Suzy said. "They're UKIP supporters."

Taken by surprise, Ed stammered, "But...but...yesterday, you told me they were LABOUR SUPPORTERS."

Little Suzy smiled and said, "I know.

But today, they have their eyes open."

[charliehunt]

A shaggy kitten story - with a kick!!

[snafu352]

.

Well said. Agree entirely.

The case made for "out" is far too simplistic, jingoistic and to my eyes not based on factual analysis at all.

Some of the "facts" used to support the "out" case in this thread illustrate that rather neatly!

Having said that the "in" case and the EU in general need to make a much better job of illustrating the good that the union brings alongside making real attempts to improve the way the system functions, some of which is actually down to addressing "mainly fail" type manipulation of the populances perceptions.

[charliehunt]

the "in" case and the EU in general need to make a much better job of illustrating the good that the union brings alongside making real attempts to improve the way the system functions

I like your sense of humour!!

[snafu352]

Thanks charlie, that response neatly illustrates the lack of real knowledge and the stifling of real debate that the "out" crowd like to perpetuate!

[charliehunt]

Au contraire, Snafu, mon brave - the more we debate it the better!:diablo:

[John Green]

Re 71

Snafu352

With that acronym for a pen name you don't have good credibility for EU comments!

Situation Normal All Fu###d Up

[charliehunt]

John

"Fouled up"?!

[snafu352]

Au contraire, Snafu, mon brave - the more we debate it the better!:diablo:

Absolutely, as long as the debate is based on real facts.
Often the real facts are rather lacking in the popular criticism of the EU.

As an aside noted this today:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21352617

[snafu352]

Re 71

Snafu352

With that acronym for a pen name you don't have good credibility for EU comments!

Situation Normal All Fu###d Up

Baseless allegation or opinion being presented as fact.
With that contribution you've just encapsulated a typical anti EU comment

[charliehunt]

Absolutely, as long as the debate is based on real facts.

Now, I could not agree more!! The problem has been and still is that by and large the peoples of the EU have been divorced from the aspirations of the leadership of the EU. And of course with very few exceptions have never been given the opportunity to express their opinion. In those cases where the leadership disagreed with the democratic vote the goalposts were moved to enable the vote required, and the voters sent back to the ballot boxes or not as the case may have been.

[John Green]

Snafu352

Me? Anti EU? I don't know how you got that impression!

But, I know from where you come. The harmonious, democratic, accountable, and extremely wealthy EU is a force to be reckoned with and admired worldwide. How we, the poor, benighted British ever prospered without the sheltering embrace of Mother EU is beyond my understanding.


Charlie

Your word and mine are much the same thing. One used by the Americans and the other by the British.

[Lincoln 7]

John, As far as I am concerned, the EU needs us more than we do them.
How much do we give them compared to what they give us?.

If it comes down to a vote, I am for OUT.

Jim.
Lincoln .7

[snafu352]

Lincoln, could you detail what exactly Britain "gives" and "gets back" from the EU?
Are you speaking of monetary figures only?

[charliehunt]

I am not answering on behalf of Lincoln but as you well know the UK is a net contributor, the second largest, I believe, financially and buys more from the EU than it sells to it.

[charliehunt]

[QUOTE=John Green;1987169

Your word and mine are much the same thing. One used by the Americans and the other by the British.[/QUOTE]

- I was suggesting the more, shall we say, polite term!!

[snafu352]

charlie, thought the give and gets argument might be entirely monetary.

5.1 billion GBP difference between the imports and exports.

https://www.uktradeinfo.com/statisti...ges/EuOTS.aspx

Key Points

•The UK’s EU exports have increased by £0.1 billion (1.0 per cent) compared to October 2012, to £13.1 billion. Compared to November 2011 exports have decreased by £0.7 billion (4.8 per cent).
•The UK’s EU imports have decreased by £0.1 billion (0.6 per cent) compared to October 2012, to £18.2 billion. Compared to November 2011 imports decreased by £0.2 billion (1.1 per cent).
•The UK remains a net importer (imports are greater than exports). The size of difference between imports and exports is now £5.1 billion, a decrease of £0.2 billion (4.3 per cent).

NHS budget GBP 106 billion.

http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/thenhs/.../overview.aspx

Wellfare Budget GBP 117 billion

http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk...ending_40.html

The paltry 18 and 13 billion in imports and exports rather pale in comparison with those numbers.
It's just another meaningless statistic that the anti crowd like to trot out and whip up the mob with.
I'd also be interested to understand if you can back up the statement that UK entities don't receive the same level of support as other equivalent countries entities do.

[John Green]

Snafu352

Lincoln 7 and Chaliehunt are of course both correct in writing about the financial and accounting aspects of the EU. That is exactly what was intended at the inception of the EU or EEC as it then was.

Great Britain signed up to a trading block. What does that mean? It means that large and powerful individual trading nations were signing up to 'sing from the same hymn sheet'. Except that they weren't.

With NATO looking after joint defence, the EEC was designed to join up and harmonise all the separate economies of Europe into one supra national entity the existence of which would prevent for all time the emergence of a single dominant force resulting in yet another bout of world wide blood letting to be known as WW3.

So, yes, it is all about money. The news published this week that around 100,000 EU workers are earning more that David Cameron, could mean that we're getting very good value from our Prime Minister (excuse me while I ever so slightly cough) Or, it could mean that I've been late in getting my CV into the Personnel Dept. or should that now be Human Resources?

Either way, the EEC is now the EU and no better for it. Having now for the last forty years, been subjected by the EU to the most outrageous barrage of restrictive legislation ranging from forced separation from our beloved and familiar imperial system of measurements to the impossibilities and contradictions of the Human Rights Act, we are expected to be fully supportive - indeed enthusiastic - of the mad and unrealistic drive towards federalism. I don't think so.

[charliehunt]

charlie, thought the give and gets argument might be entirely monetary.

It's just another meaningless statistic that the anti crowd like to trot out and whip up the mob with.

I'd also be interested to understand if you can back up the statement that UK entities don't receive the same level of support as other equivalent countries entities do.

Not sure what else is relevant.

No, it's a very meaningful statistic being an actual fact.

I am not sure that I understand your last point.

[Edgar Brooks]

•The UK’s EU exports have increased by £0.1 billion (1.0 per cent) compared to October 2012, to £13.1 billion.
•The UK’s EU imports have decreased by £0.1 billion (0.6 per cent) compared to October 2012, to £18.2 billion.
•The UK remains a net importer (imports are greater than exports). The size of difference between imports and exports is now £5.1 billion, a decrease of £0.2 billion (4.3 per cent).

NHS budget GBP 106 billion.

Wellfare Budget GBP 117 billion

The paltry 18 and 13 billion in imports and exports rather pale in comparison with those numbers.

18 & 13 billion might seem paltry to you, but to me, on about £200 per week, it seems a Hell of a lot, so please don't talk down to us.
NHS & welfare monies stay in this country, and are designed to care for those, in this country, who need help; your "paltry" excess 5 billion leaves this country, never to return.
The EU's accountants are so incompetent that their own auditors (who, I would venture to suggest, are far more au fait with economic reality than anyone here) totally refuse, again and again, to sign off their figures; expecting me to join such an organisation is akin to asking turkeys to vote for Christmas all the year round.

[Lincoln 7]

I am not answering on behalf of Lincoln but as you well know the UK is a net contributor, the second largest, I believe, financially and buys more from the EU than it sells to it.

Thanks Charlie, Great minds think alike, only you beat me to it.

Jim.
Lincoln .7

[charliehunt]

It is intriguing - I am not sure whether the many emiment and respected Europhiles are blind to the "facts" or genuinely believe in and desire a Federal United States of Europe with the UK as a part of it. You can be sure of one thing - the EU's voters will never be offered a chance to voice their opinion!!

[RichardF]

Additionally folks, those huge bills for the NHS and the Welfare Budget would be significantly less if immigration was not so rife; another gift from the EU that thus far is out of our control. Adding to that of course are the plethora of diseases that were once eradicated, or at least minimal, are now returning with gusto, no doubt brought in by such uncontrolled immigration.
Any wonder that the system is creaking at the joints with free housing, health care, subsidies, et al for these "visitors".
I say the EU is a monster out to govern the whole of Europe and perpetuate the regulations and laws that engulf us on a continual basis to justify its existance.
I say OUT!
Richard

[charliehunt]

I say the EU is a monster out to govern the whole of Europe and perpetuate the regulations and laws that engulf us on a continual basis to justify its existance.
I say OUT!
Richard

That is of course another way of describing the Federal Europe which is the declared aim of the EU's unelected leadership, and always has been.