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Thread: Nigel Farage and the EU

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehunt View Post
    So we have to notify the EU of our intention to leave before anything can happen.
    Please God, we don't, without considering the pros and cons very carefully indeed.

    Saw an interesting bit of 'vox pop' on RT today. A Swiss woman interviewed on the streets of Berlin, said that yes, Switzerland goes it alone in Europe, and maybe Britain should do the same, but she cautioned, that we Swiss have lots of money, but you British don't. An interesting point of view

    I'm still inclined to think that we should stay in. I would really be interested in the opinions of the anti EU members, as to what the economic future would be, for a UK outside the EU.
    "Behold! The Wings of Horus"

  2. #32
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    MSR 777

    Good point my boy ! Switzerland are out and very rich. Britain is in and very poor.

    Must be a lesson there somewhere

  3. #33
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    Is prosperity for Britain really linked to being in the EU? At what cost are we gaining this prosperity? How much is - over - regulation hurting the UK economy and British business? Nobody can give an accurate answer to these, just as much as nobody can the reverse. It is like trying to predict the markets, it's a gamble either way.

    I still think we will be better off - not necessarily any richer - out of the EU, in the long run.

  4. #34
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    Exactly John...britain was a relatively cheap country to live in before we voted to join the 'common market'

    Any PM willing to give a vote on continued membership of this expensive,wasteful and undemocratic mess is not going to win vis a vis perceived reasons for doing so...

    So we give notice to quit ?
    We might then get a better offer to stay ,but it is very clear that the EU cannot carry on in its present form...

  5. #35
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    Yes, the Swiss look after everyone else's money.

    Saudia Arabia is also a very wealthy country, so should we emulate them and become a fundamentalist absolute monarchy?
    You can't fool owls.

  6. #36
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    A lot of pro-Europeans say that being outside of the EU, Britain will no longer attract large MNCs... But has anyone considered it may do the opposite?
    What about a large Chinese or American company that wants a European HQ without all the EU paraphernalia? Britain would be the perfect location, this is what the Swiss have capitalised on over the years. You just have to look at how many American companies have European offices in Switzerland.
    Last edited by Matt-100; 23rd January 2013 at 21:17.
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  7. #37
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    Large Chinese or American companies are hardly likely to set up a European HQ in a country that is outside the single market.

    It makes no commercial sense whatsoever.

    Most foreign company HQs in Switzerland were established as a means of reducing the amount of tax paid at home. The same thing happens in the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man.
    Last edited by Grey Area; 23rd January 2013 at 21:28.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Area View Post
    Large Chinese or American companies are hardly likely to set up a European HQ in a country that is outside the single market.
    And yet... http://www.swisscham.org/bei/pdf/Hea...witzerland.pdf

  9. #39
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    That's an advert for a firm of lawyers, mate.
    You can't fool owls.

  10. #40
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    Re 35

    Grey Area

    I'm not easily puzzled but your argument perplexes me. You make a link between Saudi Arabia being a rich country and also 'a fundamentalist, absolute monarchy'.

    Saudi Arabia obtained its wealth from oil and clever investment; not from being a fundamentalist absolute monarchy!

    Being in or out of the EU should not be just about business opportunity. Do we want to continue to be governed by a non elected, un-democratic Brussels elite who have not been able ever to satisfy the EU's Court of Auditors as to the honesty and accuracy of the EU's balance of accounts ?
    Last edited by John Green; 23rd January 2013 at 23:08. Reason: syntax

  11. #41
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    Is it the bankers who have trained the Brussels bureaucrats in accountability and ethics, or is it the other way round? Same game.....different badges.:diablo:
    "Behold! The Wings of Horus"

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Green View Post
    I'm not easily puzzled but your argument perplexes me. You make a link between Saudi Arabia being a rich country and also 'a fundamentalist, absolute monarchy'.
    It's simple enough.

    You suggested that the current prosperity of Switzerland is due to that country being outside tihe EU, with the fairly clear implication that the UK would.become as prosperous were we to leave the EU.

    To highlight the folly and over-simplification inherent in that argument, I pointed out that Saudi Arabia is also a very wealthy country so - by your reasoning - emulating them would result in our becoming a much richer nation.

    I agree that it's a daft argument, but you started it.
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  13. #43
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    This is all political flummery. As I pointed out earlier under the Treaty we cannot renegotiate unless we give notice of our intention to leave. If we do leave the scare stories of the dire consequences are being over-played by those opposed to it, particularly some pro-Europe economists and CEOs of large multi-nationals.

    We buy more from the EU than we sell to them so they are not going to cease trading with us. We need to find new markets away from Europe, which is the least dynamic of the global trading blocs.

    But it is all academic. It is more likely that we will exit because the EU itself becomes unsustainable or remaibn a membver of a looser trading union again because the EU itself breaks down. I give the Euro another 5/10 years at the most.
    Charlie

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  14. #44
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    Re 42

    Grey Area

    No, I didn't start it. No. 31 did. Read it again slowly. Eat more fish.


    If the EU works, as you imply it does, all the members including Britain would be happy, prosperous, free from debt and without a care in the world. So, what are we all concerned about ?

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSR777 View Post
    Is it the bankers who have trained the Brussels bureaucrats in accountability and ethics, or is it the other way round? Same game.....different badges.:diablo:
    I would suggest that it is the other way round. The Brussels bureaucracy has been adept at chicanery and unethical behaviour, almost since its inception. Bankers have much to answer for but not that.
    Charlie

    Keep smiling - it's never as bad as you think!!

  16. #46
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    The reality of Britain leaving the EU is not as easy as implied, even by Nigel Farage himself. Let's face it, leaving the EU is not going to solve the woes of Britain in one swoop. What it will do is empower Britain to change, and change more rapidly in response to domestic and business needs. If Britain is to be a success - however you define that - Britain needs to become leaner, and start producing.

    Yes, I am a anti-EU, and do want out of the EU. I don't think I'm too naive to think it alone will be the saviour for Britain.

  17. #47
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    Of course it won't and I don't think anyone thinks so. However, were it ever to happen, which I doubt, it would allow us the freedom of making our own mistakes and managing our own successes and failures rather than as a result of decisions made by unelected, unnaccountable, self-serving bureaucrats.
    Charlie

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  18. #48
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    It makes me wonder how the hell we managed prior to joining the E.U.

    Jim.
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  19. #49
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    Rather well!!
    Charlie

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  20. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Green View Post
    If the EU works, as you imply it does, all the members including Britain would be happy, prosperous, free from debt and without a care in the world. So, what are we all concerned about ?
    The USA has a national debt that is so large as to be an almost theoretical amount, so I think the linkage of debt with EU membership is a little more tenuous than you seem to think.

    And where did I say that the EU works?
    You can't fool owls.

  21. #51
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    I'm not concerned about American debt. You do like your 'red herrings' !

    Yes, you make an excellent point. The link with EU debt is indeed slight as you suggest.

    Let's see now? France, Italy, Ireland, Spain, Portugal, Greece. I know that it is not many, but it is a start. I seem to recall reading that the Spanish province of Valencia owes a wee bit in the shape of 35 billion Euros. Not million - billion.

    Just loose change really ! The obverse of your argument is that the EU is working so none of its many sceptics need worry.

    But then you obviously know what you're writing about. The rest of us must be imagining these things and that all is well with the great European experiment.

    May I borrow a pair of your specs? Your rose tinted ones are much superior to mine.

  22. #52
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    I'm not getting involved in a slanging match, John.

    If puttng words into people's mouths and silly personal stuff is all you've got left, that speaks for itself.
    You can't fool owls.

  23. #53
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    Grey Area

    I'm sorry if you see it that way. What I was trying to convey, in my usual clumsy fashion, was that quite large numbers of the population of this country view membership of the EU as oppressive and not beneficial to the national interest. That appears, to my interpretation, to be a fact.

    You appear to be swimming against the tide.

  24. #54
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    Oh, I wouldn't disagree with you on that.

    The problem is that your average punter on the street sees the issues filtered through the interpretation of individuals and organisations with an agenda and vested interests.

    I'm sure you'd agree that a decision on a matter of this importance should be informed by objective fact, rather than the biases of those who stand to profit from the outcome - whichever way it goes.

    But here's a question for you: If and when a referendum does take place, how do you think that the UKIP and the eurosceptic Conservative MPs would react to a decision in favour of staying in the EU? Would they accept it as the will of the people, or would they carry on much as before?
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  25. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Area View Post
    But here's a question for you: If and when a referendum does take place, how do you think that the UKIP and the eurosceptic Conservative MPs would react to a decision in favour of staying in the EU? Would they accept it as the will of the people, or would they carry on much as before?
    The same way that any loosing side in politics behaves. They tend to dissappear, until an opportunity to say 'I told you so' presents itself.

    I think a more interesting scenario would be for the people to vote to leave the EU. There would be many mainstream politicians who would realise that they are completely unaware of what the people of the UK want.

    Given the headline of the Express today, I can only see the UK leaving in all honesty.

  26. #56
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    I'm filled with despair! I am a pro EU membership British citizen! As far as I am concerned it would be a disaster and the general public do not realise the problems it entails!

    Before somebody says "The British public should be allowed to decide"! That is all well and good but in my opinion the British public whipped up by a very EU-hostile press do not understand the complexities or what we would loose to make a reasoned rational decision!

    It isn't just a case of waving a wand sacking the MEP and stopping the money sent to Brussels! Many laws and infrastructure come from Europe we would have to negotiate a withdrawal and then set up alternatives for those laws and processes. We would then have to negotiate a new relationship with the EU and they would hold the high ground in that negotiation. It isn't just a case of sweeping away Brussels bureaucracy there are many things that are done centrally with no equivalent in the UK but are things the general public would want! Also there are many employment laws that the Euroskeptics talk of sweeping away but the general public wouldn't want to loose!

    People keep on demanding a referendum not realising what that actually means and assuming it is a simple in out process.
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  27. #57
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    NOW EU FINES BRITAIN £250,000 EACH DAY


    THE EU was accused of acting like a spoilt child yesterday after threatening the UK with fines of £250,000 a day for failing to implement new rules.
    The huge penalty was proposed by the European Commission the day after David Cameron called for EU reform and promised Britain a referendum on whether to stay in on new terms or leave.
    Outraged MPs said Brussels’ petty attempt at revenge would make a vote to pull out even more likely, while the Whitehall department affected also hit back at the Eurocrats, insisting the UK was on the verge of meeting their demands.

    Souce;

    http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/...0-000-each-day

    Sooner out the better!




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  28. #58
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    All we should do is what every other country which does not implement rules does, and there are many worse than us, DON'T PAY!!
    Charlie

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  29. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedaykin View Post
    I'm filled with despair! I am a pro EU membership British citizen! As far as I am concerned it would be a disaster and the general public do not realise the problems it entails!

    Before somebody says "The British public should be allowed to decide"! That is all well and good but in my opinion the British public whipped up by a very EU-hostile press do not understand the complexities or what we would loose to make a reasoned rational decision!

    People keep on demanding a referendum not realising what that actually means and assuming it is a simple in out process.
    So, you think you know better than everyone else?

    It doesn't really matter of you do, that isn't how democracy works (or at least it shouldn't be)
    On such an important issue, everyone should be entitled to their say. Whatever their reason, educated or not.

    There are many issues that we can not solve due to our EU membership.

    And are you saying that you agree with us sending £50m per day to the continent?

    We have reached a critical point in Europes history. The rest of the continent is going Federal. Before long it's going to be a single currency superstate, but a very troubled one. We do not have a common heritage with Europe, and we are very different in many respects, as are the northern states from the southern ones.

    We either go all the way in, or leave. There will be no middle ground before long.

    And I'm for out. These faceless beaurocrats spend our money like its going out of fashion, and then have the nerve to demand more?!

    Thankfully, I have the majority of the population on my side, and I can only see support for leaving grow over the coming years.

    And I believe a referendum is inevitable now, wether the Conservatives are elected or not.

  30. #60
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    No I am not saying that I am better then everybody else. I am saying that the general public do not have a clear enough picture of the complexities both positive and negative of European membership or the process of leaving to make a reasoned rational decision.

    £50 million pounds a day is peanuts in the grand scheme of things in comparison to what we make from being in the common market. It is a fraction of what it costs to run the NHS in a day. I presume you like having the NHS? As a German Newspaper pointed out recently "The British want the good stuff without the bad". Yes there is a cost of membership but the reward is the common trade we benefit from and harmonisation of regulations across the block. That reward is significantly more then we pay out.

    So you know what these faceless beaurocrats spend the money on? A very emotional statement I have seen used so many times to justify any argument against the EU but usually not supported by any information outside of some lurid headline from the Daily Mail. Out of the three types of law in the UK only EU regulations are immediately enacted. Do you know what kind of regulations we are talking about? Whilst we always hear about the regulations imposed by faceless people on Brussels in respect of Banana size or sausage classification (actually both untrue) we don't often get the reports about the good things like work place health and safety regulations. Harmonising those regulations is a very good idea. How about regulations on the dumping in chemicals in rivers? How about the ability to work and live anywhere in the European union, a right I have actually made use of.

    Now don't get me wrong there are many things that I feel should be reformed in particular the CAP and the madness of moving between Brussels and Strasbourg should stop but the idea of being on the outside watching as the EU make decisions without our input that would have massive consequences for agriculture, industry and the economy scares me. That people are happy to sleep walk into that needs to be raised. Are pro Europeans not allowed to point out the positives of membership? Don't you think the public are not entitled to a rational informed debate rather then what we have now which is a storm of hate and anybody who puts a hand up and says "hang on" is branded an enemy of the will of the people!

    Personally I do think we have a common heritage with Europe, myself I have recent French ancestry and I work for an international company working with people of all nationalities. The hostility you have shown me for pointing out that it is a complex issue, with many negatives of leaving that are often ignored and I would prefer to stay in saddens me j_jza80.

    It isn't so clear cut as to say the majority support your opinion, in a recent poll 47% said they wanted to pull out. That leaves a significant majority of pro and undecided people.

    In the current economic climate of a triple dip recession I feel this whole Europe issue only serves to destabilise the country even more.
    Last edited by Fedaykin; 25th January 2013 at 17:37.
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