French air campaign - Mali

[Vortex]

He was comparing combat career, from 1st combat mission to last combat mission. When was the F4 last used in anger by the way? Or the F5?

Nic

Didn't a f4 got shot down last year...depending on whether it was angry or not though... . Kilo beat me to it.

[thobbes]

Pretty sure the Turks used F-4s to drop bombs on Kurdish positions in 2011 or 2012.

And they're still obviously conducting recce flights with them.

Last bomb totting French Mirage F1s were retired this year.

Spanish Air Forces has used Mirage F1s in active role in Baltic Air Policing Mission.

[thobbes]

So where's the Charles de Gaulle in all of this?

Sure Mali is a landlocked countrry but a carrier is still useful as a floating base or for delivering troops/choppers/etc? The US used carrier aviation in landlocked Afghanistan as did the French.

Also haven't heard any news about the use of any of the 3 Mistrals in support either.

[thobbes]

Conflict spills over into Algeria with 41 foreigners apparently taken hostage.

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/ar...-taken-hostage

[H_K]

2008 by Turkish AF in extended attacks against Kurds in northern Iraq, and very possibly in Aug 2011 attacks in same area. 2012 one was shot down by Syria.

Yes, it turns out that you are correct. I wasn't aware of those bombing missions in 2007-08 and 2011 by the F-4 2020s. So the F-4 is going to be hard to beat, at least among Western fighters - 46 years of combat ops!

(I wouldn't count the RF-4E shoot down though...it doesn't deliver ordnance, and were the Turkish crew aware of the deadly threat facing them?)

[Rii]

By the way, why are the Rafales carrying A2A missiles? What possible airbourne threat could they encounter?

The wingtip MICAs are tied into the IRST system.

[TR1]

http://i.imgur.com/GA8Sq.jpg

Apparently French are making use of An-124s.
Supposedly a RuAF An-124 was involved as well, which is surprising indeed.

[thobbes]

(I wouldn't count the RF-4E shoot down though...it doesn't deliver ordnance

Mirage F1CR doesn't drop ordnance either. It's also a recce bird.

[TMor]

They do drop bombs over Mali...

[Cherry Ripe]

Mirage F1CR doesn't drop ordnance either. It's also a recce bird.

Actually it's a pretty accurate attack aircraft and has been used in the role on several occasions.

During Daguet the F1CR acted as bombing leader for groups of Jaguars, having a more accurate nav-attack system tied in to its radar.

And the ultimate RF-4 offensive role was with the Luftwaffe, with a nuclear store on the centreline for the deep-strike role.

[Kovy]

They do drop bombs over Mali...

The last war of the tiffin

http://blogs.defensenews.com/interce.../159500951.jpg

[TR1]

Nice pic!

That's a hell of a tank to payload ratio.

[Dr.Snufflebug]

The last war of the tiffin

http://blogs.defensenews.com/interce.../159500951.jpg

Interesting mix of A/C there. Two F-1's in French colours, two An-24s, eight? MiG-21s, one C-47 Turbo, one MiG-15/17, one crop duster/glide tug (Air Tractor?) etc... It's like a history class.

[Nicolas10]

2008 by Turkish AF in extended attacks against Kurds in northern Iraq, and very possibly in Aug 2011 attacks in same area. 2012 one was shot down by Syria.

Ah true I totally forgot about Turkey's F4s.

Nic

[Mildave]

So where's the Charles de Gaulle in all of this?

Sure Mali is a landlocked countrry but a carrier is still useful as a floating base or for delivering troops/choppers/etc? The US used carrier aviation in landlocked Afghanistan as did the French.

Also haven't heard any news about the use of any of the 3 Mistrals in support either.

The CdG is about to go into dry dock for maintenance, one Mistral was used for the raid into Sommalie and should still be there as according to some sources the mission there wasn't officially closed... What that means is for everyone to guess.

I think another one is deployed or coming back from an excercise, and I've no idea where the last one is, but I doubt they would be used given the fact that France has plenty of bases nearby.

[Mildave]

Bet they wish they had Brimstone right now. Perfect for this mission.

Contrary to Lybia the hostile forces in Mali hide mostly in caverns, deserts etc. A few of them are trying to hide within cities, but so far not very successfully mainly due to the fact that the local population doesn't support them, well at least in the south.

As far as the North is concerned reports are that the Islamic extremists are leaving big cities... so the use of bombs like Brimstone isn't for now at least as necessary as it might have been for other operations.

Other jets are certainly vulnerable to MANPADS too, but at least the A10 stands a good chance of surviving a strike, a Mirage or Rafale would be finished.

Providing a Rafale/Mirage would be flying low and slow then the MANPADS might have had a chance, but reports are that most of them are in bad shape, and the few that did work have already been used against gouvernement troops (although I'm not aware at this time of any aircraft been shot, at least that's the official version).

By the way, why are the Rafales carrying A2A missiles? What possible airbourne threat could they encounter?

Standard load for self protection, they never leave for a combat situation without them AFAIK and as it has been pointed already the IR version is also coupled to the IRST system of the Rafale.

Beside you never know...

[schurem]

Also aerodynamics. Wingtip missiles help make the wing more efficient.

[TEEJ]

A-10s would be sitting targets with MANPADS in the field

Really? Have you studied where A-10s have been operating during conflicts? In the thick of it during Iraq 1991 and 2003 in high MANPAD threat areas. It didn't curtail there use even when they took losses and damage. They also operated over Libya and Yugoslavia. Tough old birds able to take considerable combat damage.

[Tempest414]

Really? Have you studied where A-10s have been operating during conflicts? In the thick of it during Iraq 1991 and 2003 in high MANPAD threat areas. It didn't curtail there use even when they took losses and damage. They also operated over Libya and Yugoslavia. Tough old birds able to take considerable combat damage.

I would say this is what the a A-10 was build for troop support and as said losses and all they keep coming its there job

[Nicolas10]

I was watching some program on TV about the intervention in Mali (c dans l'air in case anyone wants to check it out), and they were interviewing some of the inhabitants complaining about the islamists... and while the camera moved to the side you cold see a poster of Khadaffi on the wall

Nic

[thobbes]

Well spotted!

Gaddafi was loved in some African quarters thanks to aid and promises of African revival.

[Fedaykin]

Really? Have you studied where A-10s have been operating during conflicts? In the thick of it during Iraq 1991 and 2003 in high MANPAD threat areas. It didn't curtail there use even when they took losses and damage. They also operated over Libya and Yugoslavia. Tough old birds able to take considerable combat damage.

Indeed TEEJ, A-10 has taken heavy hits in her service life including from Manpads.

If you don't believe me Stan Hyd here are a few pictures of 81-0967 during the Kosovo campaign, took a hit from a SAM and returned to service a couple of weeks later:

On a side note is the Bedford MK flatbed with crane being used by the USAF borrowed form the RAF or British Army? The guy standing on the wing of the Bedford looks like he is wearing Combat 95 bottoms.













NOTE: Images from www.thewarthogpen.com

[bgnewf]

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/01...n_2496862.html

The CC-177 Globemaster doing its business

[Bager1968]

Germany sending 2xTransall C-160:
http://www.dw.de/germany-to-send-tra...ali/a-16525019

Euro-zone in full cry:
http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/16/world/mali-unrest/

Germany's Defense Ministry announced Wednesday it will contribute two Transall transport planes to the offensive.

Italy said it is "ready for a logistical support operation" in Mali, Foreign Minister Giulio Terzi told a senate hearing on international missions Wednesday.

Belgium's defense minister said Tuesday that Brussels will send two C-130 transport planes, two medical helicopters and 75 soldiers to Mali.

[Jonesy]

Indeed TEEJ, A-10 has taken heavy hits in her service life including from Manpads.

If you don't believe me Stan Hyd here are a few pictures of 81-0967 during the Kosovo campaign, took a hit from a SAM and returned to service a couple of weeks later:

I've always wondered about this and the pics are good illustration. If that green engine wasnt available at the damaged A-10s recovery base would that aircraft have flown again as soon as it did?. Is survivability all its cracked up to be if, on day 2, you are launching half the planes you did on day one because half came back shot to bits?

Good news for the pilots that their planes got them back of course, but, better if the aircraft didnt get hit in the first place and available the next day or, perhaps, didnt have a human component to worry about?

[Bager1968]

I've always wondered about this and the pics are good illustration. If that green engine wasnt available at the damaged A-10s recovery base would that aircraft have flown again as soon as it did?. Is survivability all its cracked up to be if, on day 2, you are launching half the planes you did on day one because half came back shot to bits?

Good news for the pilots that their planes got them back of course, but, better if the aircraft didnt get hit in the first place and available the next day or, perhaps, didnt have a human component to worry about?

Better yet if we just had a magic lamp we could rub and wish reality to alter however we want, eh?

Sorry, but we are talking about what is available and in-service NOW, not "might be in service 10+ years in the future".

[mupp]

A pitty the Dutch/Italians/Spanish couldn't get together and send down a joint force of 5-6 Chinooks to help out.

Be a boon instead of road hauling everything around there.....oh well

[c-seven]

Here it must probably taking off with the 2 GBUs and the gun cover out.

Of course it's not 100% sure though it's much easier to take a picture like this during the take off than during the landing.

And of course it doesn't say either that the Rafale makes gun straffing in Mali.

Edit: The Rafale still has the "Artic Tiger" on one of its tank

[Stan hyd]

If you don't believe me Stan Hyd here are a few pictures of 81-0967 during the Kosovo campaign, took a hit from a SAM and returned to service a couple of weeks later

Fedaykin I don't post often, but I read daily. I find your posts to be well thought out and interesting. Please take it for granted that I wouldn't think you would make something up

That being said, on a personal note I don't think I would want to be a slow moving target over a manpad now matter what the amour is like. That's just a personal though :P

I also think that the chance of them operating A-10 are 0 but the chance of them using Brimstone in the future is possible.
I think that with the type of fight they have on their hands with lots of civilians about and moving non armored vehicles the Brimstone missile would be of use. Too late now probably for integration (someone have thoughts on how long that would take?) but if they had started after Libya could have been done?

I understand the lack of desire to get involved by our Government but I do think it was the right move by the French and wish we could support them in more ways. Perhaps the UK could provide the Malian army with some equipment at least.

[swerve]

A pitty the Dutch/Italians/Spanish couldn't get together and send down a joint force of 5-6 Chinooks to help out.

Be a boon instead of road hauling everything around there.....oh well

Getting the Chinooks there would probably take more logistical effort than the road hauling - and five or six Chinooks aren't the best way of moving dozens of light AFVs hundreds of kilometres. It's 400km from Bamako to the front. Think of two Afghanistans (but with half the population of one), all supplied through one base. No equivalents of Camp Bastion for local support: everything's based in Bamako.