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Thread: French air campaign - Mali

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by LERX View Post
    I wonder if David Cameron will get another cold shoulder anytime soon form a French leader after this helping hand?

    I did not know the UK Govt. was considering increasing its C-17 fleet - an eminently sensible proposal.

    The need to use RAF C-17s doesn't say much for the FAF strategic lift capability.

    Oh well, a friend in need is a friend indeed.
    Well the rumour is going around, they got the eighth due to the MOD being allowed to roll over any budget surplus. The airframe was quickly taken out of the US build allocation. The serial numbers were allocated years ago for a possible nine and ten purchase:

    ZZ179
    ZZ180

    Of course ten serial numbers were allocated as a speculative move and to allow any future purchase to fit into the sequence. It is not certain but the jungle drums I have being hearing from my contacts on the inside when it comes to procurement is they are going to try and swing it.
    Because sometimes in life we need a bit of fun

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXNAp3mKepc

  2. #32
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    -Algeria has authorised French warplanes to use its airspace for bombing raids in neighbouring Mali, French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius said on Sunday.

    Fabius was speaking after French Rafale fighter jets bombed Islamist bases near Gao in northern Mali from their base in France.

    http://www.france24.com/en/20130113-...ace-mali-raids

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammer View Post
    On the contrary it has everything to do with the exact type of menace the Super Tucanos has been designed to counter
    The Touareg ( and the al Quaeda forces that have co-opted their campaign ) had a jolly good time stripping arms caches in Libya before returning to their traditional stomping grounds.

    They are not running around firing Tokarevs in the air and waving daggers; it is considered that they have access to double-digit series MANPADS.

    In addition to 23mm cannon, that's not an environment conducive to Tucano operations.

  4. #34
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    So the French are partying colonial style like it's the 19th century over again.

    If the French and co really wanted to help Africa, they'd open up their markets to a lot of the lower value goods produced by these countries such as agriculture and stop supporting corrupt and oppressive politicians such as the current rulers of Mali.

    And maybe also give up on colonial era arbitrary borders and allow the creation of ethnicity based states. E.g. allowing the creation of a Toureg state would've stopped the creation of the Islamist force in the first place.

    The French also failed in a rescue attempt on one of their spies in Somalia resulting in 17 dead Islamists, two dead/missing commando and a dead spy:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...eb9_story.html

    http://edition.cnn.com/2013/01/12/wo...aid/index.html

    Seems Hollande is viewing Africa as the French military's personal playground.

    (Remember Mali operation wasn't meant to commence until September).
    Last edited by thobbes; 13th January 2013 at 23:00.

  5. #35
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    Nobody reply to Thobbes please!

    I have reported the previous comment to the MODS.
    Because sometimes in life we need a bit of fun

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXNAp3mKepc

  6. #36
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    He hasn't said anything wrong and is on topic.
    Go Huskers!

  7. #37
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    That is because he has edited out the most offensive part suggesting French planes should be shot down and the pilots dragged through the streets by African rebels.

    My mistake for not taking a screen shot.
    Because sometimes in life we need a bit of fun

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXNAp3mKepc

  8. #38
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    If it was edited the mods see the message by revision.
    Go Huskers!

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snow Monkey View Post
    Usage of these unarmored helicopter platforms in roles like this just doesn't seem like a good idea. Perhaps the Gazelle replacement will have at least light armoring on the crew area.
    The Gazelle replacement is the Tiger. It's more armored.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kovy View Post
    Tigers are expeted to be deployed very soon,

    I could be wrong, but I bet that the C-17 of the RAF will be used for to bring the tigers in Mali
    I would put my money on an An-124 first, but why not also a C-17 or two for help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fedaykin View Post
    I wonder after having a chance to play with our C17 the French military will start getting eager for their own examples? The line is open and meeting orders or will A400M win out as the sole transport type in French service?
    Quote Originally Posted by LERX View Post
    The need to use RAF C-17s doesn't say much for the FAF strategic lift capability.
    It's very low at the moment. C-130s & C-160s are old and getting older and fewer each year, CASAs are tiny, C-135s have other missions and Airbii are few (and fit for troops, not for vehicles or other big things).
    I'm sure the French military are already eager for a better airlift capability, and are thankful for UK help, here & now, as a stop-gap.
    The A400M will provide the needed better airlift capability. Starting this year (at last!), the first deliveries will change a lot of the current situation.
    Hence I don't see the point for France to decide (now) to get a new type nor, to be honnest, the overall need for building a mixed fleet A400M+C-17.
    Note: I'm sure RAF will know what to do about that (France seldom go to Mount Pleasant for example), and I'm sure each aircraft has its advantages.
    Last edited by AlphaZulu; 14th January 2013 at 02:53. Reason: typo

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadRat View Post
    If it was edited the mods see the message by revision.
    I edited as I thought in hindsight it was inappropriate. One should not let cultural biases get the better of themselves.

    As for Gazelle v Tiger, I suspect it's due to Gazelle's being based in Chad.

  11. #41
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    I am starting to love Le French. America under Obama are a bunch of cowards so the free world needs a resurgent France/U.K to teach the terrorists a lesson. And it also serves as a good show case for French weapons.

    Go Rafale, Go France. Go Freedom.
    Love Planes, Live Planes

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by quadbike View Post
    I am starting to love Le French. America under Obama are a bunch of cowards so the free world needs a resurgent France/U.K to teach the terrorists a lesson. And it also serves as a good show case for French weapons.

    Go Rafale, Go France. Go Freedom.
    Ridiculous.
    http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/9098/rsz11rsz3807.jpg

  13. #43
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    Agreed.
    Those Terrorist must be keept at bay, or they will de-stable the whole region, not just Mali. Why is this so hard to understand?
    Instead of pointing fingers at France, you should pointing fingers at those whom do nothing here.
    Thanks

  14. #44
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    This whole mess could've been avoided if the world granted the Tuaregs a homeland (Tuaregs are the Kurds of subSahahan West Africa).

    Also France supported a corrupt Mali government that oppressed the Tuaregs. This government actually let the insurgency get to the point where it has. They disarmed and neutered their own military in order to make it less likely to launch a coup.

    The French are not some sort of liberators or freedom fighters or anti-terror fighters. Their involvement in their former African colonies has been stained in corruption and blood spilt by the puppet leaders they helped maintain.

    Occassionaly they have to get involved to clear up the mess their little tin pot dictators* make.

    *Except now they're "democratically elected" and wear suits.

    This sort of colonialist style intervention does nothing for African stability. Nor do the French care for African peace and prosperity or they would've got rid of those CAP subsidies and other import restrictions by now.
    Last edited by thobbes; 14th January 2013 at 05:41.

  15. #45
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    This thread is about an air campaing, not the politics. So please discuss the campaign itself.
    Regards,

    Frank

  16. #46
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    This is a UN approved operation after Mali officialy asked for help. Eventually that will lead to an african UN peace keaping mission which is better that doing nothing.

    As for the campaign itself, UK providing airlift support to the French should rather be seen as UK doing her duty to support a UN military operation. The fact that it is to transport french gear, in that case, is irrelevant imho.

    edited to fit moderation request
    Last edited by Kovy; 14th January 2013 at 07:47.
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  17. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by LERX View Post
    I wonder if David Cameron will get another cold shoulder anytime soon form a French leader after this helping hand?

    I did not know the UK Govt. was considering increasing its C-17 fleet - an eminently sensible proposal.

    The need to use RAF C-17s doesn't say much for the FAF strategic lift capability.

    Oh well, a friend in need is a friend indeed.
    Actually France takes most of the load and risks for this international UN backed anti-terrorist operation.
    British help with two C17s is wellcome and everybody is thankfull of course.

    On another hand nothing comparable with French involment but we understand that UK forces has been heavily used in operations last decade (especially in Irak) and it now endures tough budget cuts. And thus: can't do much more.
    So we take the load, it's normal.

    ...a friend in need is a friend indeed.
    Last edited by c-seven; 14th January 2013 at 08:45.

  18. #48
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    Thanks for help. would u mind sending a serviceable C-17 instead ?
    Just joking. Thanks anyway

  19. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by thobbes View Post
    This whole mess could've been avoided if the world granted the Tuaregs a homeland (Tuaregs are the Kurds of subSahahan West Africa).

    Also France supported a corrupt Mali government that oppressed the Tuaregs. This government actually let the insurgency get to the point where it has. They disarmed and neutered their own military in order to make it less likely to launch a coup.

    The French are not some sort of liberators or freedom fighters or anti-terror fighters. Their involvement in their former African colonies has been stained in corruption and blood spilt by the puppet leaders they helped maintain.

    Occassionaly they have to get involved to clear up the mess their little tin pot dictators* make.

    *Except now they're "democratically elected" and wear suits.

    This sort of colonialist style intervention does nothing for African stability. Nor do the French care for African peace and prosperity or they would've got rid of those CAP subsidies and other import restrictions by now.
    Off topic or not I agree with your analysis.

  20. #50
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    On UAVs versus helicopters versus Super Tucano's, I'd suggest UAVs win hands down:

    Helicopter:
    + vertical take off
    + good at ground support
    - limited range
    - highest costs
    - low altitude
    - vulnerable

    Super Tucano:
    + speed
    + range
    + altitude (above MANPAD reach)
    + operating costs ($400/hour)

    UAVs:
    + range
    + altitude (above MANPAD reach)
    + operating costs ($400/hour)
    + extreme endurance (12 hours on site compared to 2 hours for manned aircraft)
    + satellite link (while costly, this gives direct view to Paris, a priceless ability combined with their extreme endurance)
    + operators are much cheaper than pilots
    + no lives at risk

    So helicopters are out. Super Tucano's would be interesting as gun ships, but UAVs provide greatly superior loiter time and a direct video link. Combined with a respectable weapons payload, this means they are much more useful compared to a similarly priced prop aircarft. France could send in a UAV in and keep it there for 10+ hours, where prop manned aircraft would have to make several trips.

    I'm not even comparing jet aircraft because these are much more costly, especially the Rafale. For such missions these should not be used, except maybe emergency situations where speed is vital (and even then chances are a UAV is already on site).

  21. #51
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    A rumour was circulating in the office today that one of the C-17s had gone tech in France prior to departure.

    I haven't seen any confirmation, so throwing it out there as possibly total nonsense.

  22. #52
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    U.S. military assists France in African missions

    WASHINGTON — U.S. military warplanes assisted French forces battling Islamic extremists in two African countries over the weekend, according to the Pentagon, highlighting the growing threat of al Qaeda-linked terrorists in the region.

    The Pentagon and Defense Secretary Leon Panetta would not offer details on the nature of support to French troops in Mali or Somalia.
    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/w...frica/1832669/

  23. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherry Ripe View Post
    A rumour was circulating in the office today that one of the C-17s had gone tech in France prior to departure.

    I haven't seen any confirmation, so throwing it out there as possibly total nonsense.
    It did but apparently it was only a minor issue and wasn't delayed long, these things happen.

    Canada is sending a C17 as well now.

    I could see the UK deploying Sentinel as it was so useful over Libya, again they need to reverse the SSDR decision to drop it as the type is proving too useful! Looking at events in Mali the Sentinel R1 looks tailor made to help out, considering how mobile the rebel forces are proving Sentinel could greatly help the French strike bombers identify targets.
    Last edited by Fedaykin; 14th January 2013 at 18:41.
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  24. #54
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    frankvw
    This thread is about an air campaing, not the politics. So please discuss the campaign itself.
    Well I don't see how any military deployment can be separated out of the politics, as this will determine the force available and its terms of engagement.

    In the British and French action in Libya, we were supporting the rebels against the government. In Mali, we are supporting the government against the rebels. In Libya it was necessary to first take out the government airforce, heavy armour, and munition supplies, then to provide localised specific support for the 'rebels'. In Mali, it is mainly strategic logistics support to enhance the government's capability, with surveillance and tactical strikes where necessary. The type and extent of air deployment and possibly the ground forces, can only follow on from the political constraints

    Steven

  25. #55
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    Canada is also sending a C-17 to help the French out with their heavy lift needs

    http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/01...t-from-france/
    "It was a magnificent display of trained and disciplined valour, and its assault only failed of success because dead men can advance no further."

  26. #56
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    Operation Serval

    If anyone is interested here are a couple of good You Tube vids relating to the current French Military Operation - Operation Serval - in Mali.

    Apologies if already mentioned/seen. These are much better than the news clips.

    http://www.youtube.com/watchv=pLcKlKHWYHY

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPuuU75zw7Y

  27. #57
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    Op Serval video clip changed

    Apologies first web link posted above is incorrect - here is the right one!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLcKlKHWYHY

  28. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by steven_wh View Post
    frankvw

    Well I don't see how any military deployment can be separated out of the politics, as this will determine the force available and its terms of engagement.

    In the British and French action in Libya, we were supporting the rebels against the government. In Mali, we are supporting the government against the rebels.

    Steven
    There is a common point though : in both case we are supporting the population against a violent group of people, holding the country by force in the case of Libya, or trying to take it by force in the case of Mali.
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  29. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedaykin View Post
    It did but apparently it was only a minor issue and wasn't delayed long, these things happen.

    Canada is sending a C17 as well now.

    I could see the UK deploying Sentinel as it was so useful over Libya, again they need to reverse the SSDR decision to drop it as the type is proving too useful! Looking at events in Mali the Sentinel R1 looks tailor made to help out, considering how mobile the rebel forces are proving Sentinel could greatly help the French strike bombers identify targets.
    According to french television (france2) Britain will send intelligence assets like Drones.

  30. #60
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    Good links, thanks skeeler.

    Interesting in the second one that they're using Mk 82s ( stencilled as such ) as the basis of the GBUs ; I thought the AdlA used Matra freefall ordnance?

    Perhaps the GBU kit only fits the Aero casings, but I thought they'd only bought the guidance kits.

    Edit: and a C-130 for moving Compagnie Epervier instead of a C-160! That surprises me after all we've been told about the Transall being better-suited for the African environment.
    Last edited by Cherry Ripe; 14th January 2013 at 21:37.

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