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Thread: Russian plane 'crashes into road outside Moscow'

  1. #1
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    Russian plane 'crashes into road outside Moscow'

    A Russian passenger plane has crashed into a main road outside Moscow, reports say.

    Russian state television says the plane overshot the runway after landing. Officials said up to 12 people were on board and that no-one was killed.

    Full story here:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20865369
    "We can all make mistakes" said the Dalek climbing off the dustbin.

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    Oh dear. The aircraft is in three pieces over a main road. Cockpit separated and on other side of road. TU-204/214 first hull loss.

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    http://newsru.com/russia/29dec2012/vnukovo.html

    A Red Wings Tu-204. Pretty much ends any remaining hope of a Tu-204SM sale to Red Wings.

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    RT Newswire are now reporting 4 dead. Such a shame, I actually had high hopes for the airline - I've been tracking its progress over the years from unknown obscurity to one the country's largest charter airlines.

    I know it is very early on in the investigation, but can I just throw out incorrect landing configuration as a possible cause - rather than mechanical/weather issues?
    I've been looking at the flight path on flightradar24, it seems it started it's descent from FL 330 awfully late (it was practically over the city). I don't know if this is a standard descent and approach into Moscow? It's rate of descent to the airport was alarming from FL200 to FL100.
    So, it does make me wonder if the crew were in such a rush they missed some items off the check-list - hey, it's happened before.
    I can also see from the flight path that their final approach speed and altitude were fine.

    http://www.flightradar24.com/#!/2012.../11:50/RWZ9268
    Of course, it's all speculation at the moment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by soyuz1917 View Post
    http://newsru.com/russia/29dec2012/vnukovo.html

    A Red Wings Tu-204. Pretty much ends any remaining hope of a Tu-204SM sale to Red Wings.

    RIP to the passengers 4 dead.

    Why should it affect Tu-204SM sales could be a pilot error or judgement error ..its not the first airline in the world to skid the run way .....could be bad weather too
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  8. #8
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    Investigation blames pilots for Tu-204 crash in Vnukovo

    http://www.itar-tass.com/en/c32/613279.html

    MOSCOW, December 29 (Itar-Tass) — The Investigation Committee blames pilots of the Tu-204 plane for the aircraft’s crash at the airport of Vnukovo, Investigation Committee spokesman Vladimir Markin told Itar-Tass.

    Criminal proceedings have been instituted on this case, Markin said.

    “The investigation blames pilots for the plane’s crash,” he noted.

    According to the Investigation Committee’s data, during the crash landing, two crewmembers died.

    Meanwhile, the Emergency Situations Ministry said three crewmembers had been and four crewmembers had been injured. One more pilot was not hurt. Eight crewmembers were aboard the plane.
    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

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    The blood of the victims is still warm, isn't it a little premature to be drawing conclusions?

    I'm disappointed with the investigators, I highly doubt they've had time to check braking efficiency let alone analyse the the flight data recorders.

    It's highly worrying that the Russian investigators are fixated on pilot error - surely they should be keeping as open a mind as possible? But hay-ho, that's the Russian's for you. They did the same less than 24 hours after the Polish President's plane crashed in 2010 http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news...-1225852296619
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  10. #10
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    Sad news. Condolences to all concerned Wether or not this turns out to be mechanical failure, weather related, or pilot error, surely its a little premature to institute criminal proceedings against the crew
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt-100 View Post
    But hay-ho, that's the Russian's for you. They did the same less than 24 hours after the Polish President's plane crashed in 2010 http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news...-1225852296619
    But they were right, were they not?
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    Quote Originally Posted by TR1 View Post
    But they were right, were they not?
    Well, in that instance I guess they were right.

    But (assuming flightradar24 is correct) the flight was landing at around 130 kts (which is fine) and the flight made an approach lower than that of the previous landing aircraft (so altitude was also fine).

    Unless the crew forgot to select an appropriate auto-break setting (which is possible as I believe they were under stress, see previous post) then I don't see where the crew went wrong?

    The only possible conclusions I can draw for crew error is they forgot to apply the breaks or retard the throttles - both seem almost to obvious to mention, it's practically built into these guys DNA.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TR1 View Post
    But they were right, were they not?
    Yes, by sheer dumb luck, not because they were privy to any worthwhile analysis and information, which simply does not exist so soon after the event. Chances are they will be right again this time actually, for the trivial reason that statistically most modern airliners crash due to human error, but it's still unprofessional in the extreme to present mere unconfirmed probabilities as fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trident View Post
    Yes, by sheer dumb luck, not because they were privy to any worthwhile analysis and information, which simply does not exist so soon after the event. Chances are they will be right again this time actually, for the trivial reason that statistically most modern airliners crash due to human error, but it's still unprofessional in the extreme to present mere unconfirmed probabilities as fact.
    And I would second that...

    Just like the Russian judicial system and courts have a 99% conviction rate or there about...
    Patrick

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    Quote Originally Posted by Culpano View Post
    Oh dear. The aircraft is in three pieces over a main road. Cockpit separated and on other side of road. TU-204/214 first hull loss.
    Nope, another crashed 2 years ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviastar-TU_Flight_1906
    Bmused55

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  16. #16
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    An interesting snippet of information

    "A Tu-204 plane overshot the runway on Dec. 21 at Tolmachevo airport in Novosibirsk because of a malfunction with the brakes, Rosaviatsiya, Russia’s state airline watchdog, said in an e-mailed statement. Rosaviatsiya had warned OAO Tupolev (TUPL), the manufacturer of the plane, on Dec. 28 about the malfunction, the agency said."
    http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...moscow-airport

    I wonder.

    http://avherald.com/h?article=45ad34b5&opt=0

    EDIT: Oh and this one... http://avherald.com/h?article=45899785&opt=0
    That's three Red Wings Tu-204 overruns in less than 2 months.
    Either it's bad luck, or something's going wrong?

    EDIT 2: This is a very sad image I found - 2 hours before the crash. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:RA...fore_crash.JPG
    Last edited by Matt-100; 29th December 2012 at 17:17.
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  17. #17
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    RIP and condolences.

    ASN report here
    http://forum.keypublishing.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=24455&dateline=137163  6822Hindsight is what you see from the tailgunner's position...

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    To follow on from the amazing picture I posted earlier, taken whilst the aircraft was cruising just 2 hours before the crash... I now present to you an equally amazing video.

    Just goes to show in today's digital age, almost everything is caught on camera.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=dWONT47LFZM
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  19. #19
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    Pretty chilling dashboard cam from a car that witnessed the accident from the very road the plane came to rest beside.

    Two very lucky escapes!

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=16d_1356820592
    Bmused55

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  20. #20
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    RIP to the Dead and Condolences to their Family.

    It seems the Tu-204-100 was on a return flight from Czech after dropping the passengers so it seems atleast the plane funcioned well while landing at that airport.
    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

  21. #21
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    There are photo's on russianplanes.net of the plane landing normally at the other end of the runway.
    From the speed of the impact on the highway video I would judge they were not at the end of a long braking run.

    To me it looks like they landed, found the brakes were not working properly and tried to take-off again.

    This would also explain why authorities said it was at a second landing attempt while flightradar shows it was not. They were in the process of going for a second attempt.

    That would make it a technical error with the brakes, highly probable with the service bulletin to grease the brake limiters the day before, followed by a to late decision to abort the landing.

    just my speculation
    rgds
    EC

  22. #22
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    I tried calculating the speed of impact using the video footage. I reckon it was between (lower bound) 50 kts and (upper bound) 65 knots - it was likely somewhere between the two.

    And you are right, this is way too fast considering it's just landed on a 10,000 ft runway + 1,500 ft past the displaced threshold.

    Either the brakes failed in spectacular fashion, or a go around attempt failed. Although, if they were attempting a go around, I'd have expected them to be going a bit faster than 50-65 knots?

    EDIT: I've just calculated the actual distance from the verge the aircraft slid down to the highway. It would seem the distance is quite a bit further than my estimate. I now estimate the aircraft was doing around 100 knots on impact - which would suggest a go-around.
    I'm surprised the authorities haven't grounded the Tu-204 (or at least the airline) seeing as this is the third Red Wings Tu-204 overrun in less than 2 months.
    Last edited by Matt-100; 30th December 2012 at 10:23.
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  23. #23
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    Stumbled across this amateur footage:

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=13e_1356848408
    Bmused55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trident View Post
    Chances are they will be right again this time actually, for the trivial reason that statistically most modern airliners crash due to human error, but it's still unprofessional in the extreme to present mere unconfirmed probabilities as fact.
    It looks like they've changed their mind in the heat of mounting evidence. They're now blaming the brakes

    "The plane touched down in the proper landing area but for some reason was unable to stop on the strip. According to preliminary data, the pilots used all the brake systems available on the plane, but for some reason, the machine failed to stop and continued moving. Most likely, the cause was defective reverse engines or brakes."
    Federal Air Transport Agency chief Alexander Neradko said in televised remarks.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-3...anding/4447876
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bmused55 View Post
    Stumbled across this amateur footage:

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=13e_1356848408
    Interesting video. Slightly sick that someone would video while emergency services were rescuing injured people. Even if it was being filmed for evidence etc it seems a bit sick that Reuters published the video along with what looks like another news company.
    The last thing I'd expect is someone to shove a camera in front of me if I happened to crash one day.
    Y.N.W.A

  26. #26
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    Death toll now 5 RIP
    http://forum.keypublishing.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=24455&dateline=137163  6822Hindsight is what you see from the tailgunner's position...

  27. #27
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    But dont aircraft use a combination of Reverse Thrust , Brakes and Control Surfaces like spoilers during emergency to stop an aircraft.

    Must have been multiple failure of Brakes and Reverse Thrust to cause such a crash or possibly the runway might be slippery during winter causing these brakes to be less effective and causing it to skid off at end of runway
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    Braking is complex but I will try explain. I can only speak for a Boeing 727 though. Firstly, normal braking distances do not take spoilers and reverse thrust into account. But they do account for antiskid. If the antiskid is inoperative there are big penalties. There are advantages/penalties for wind, airport elevation, temperature, runway condition, and of course the weight of the aircraft. The emergency brakes in the 727 are simply the main brakes operated by a nitrogen bottle assuming a hydraulic failure.

    I have flown a Yak 42 once in the copilot seat under instruction of the Russian captain. The Russians don't believe in spoilers and reverse thrust as the west do, they put more faith in their brakes. They fit more/bigger wheels with more braking capability. I don't know if this is the same for the Tu 204.
    http://forum.keypublishing.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=24455&dateline=137163  6822Hindsight is what you see from the tailgunner's position...

  29. #29
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    Some spectacular videos, although I do agree that the second one, was a bit insensitive. It will be interesting to see what the cause really was.
    "Behold! The Wings of Horus"

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    Seeing the videos of the EMS crew removing the victims and having being an EMS pilot myself for 4 years, I am wondering exactly how professional those guys were. If there is no danger of fire, the protocol is to stabilize the patient and secure them so that they can't suffer any further injury before moving them. This was not the case from what I saw in the video.
    http://forum.keypublishing.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=24455&dateline=137163  6822Hindsight is what you see from the tailgunner's position...

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