U.S.A Second Amendment re-think

[PhantomII]

As you pointed out, each state is different. Some states, such as California, are far more restrictive than others. I've never seen a listed maximum number of weapons that someone can own, though I've only lived in a fraction of the 50 states. I'd have to do some research to see if that exists anywhere.

As for the requirements one must meet to legally own a gun, again that depends on the state in which you live. I personally own several firearms, and since I'm in the military, I was asked for a copy of my current orders. The dealer kept these on file. A background check was also performed, and then I was allowed to purchase the weapon in question. I believe that if I was a civilian things would've been a bit different, but I've never done the research to see what all would be entailed.

Not entirely what you were looking for, but that's just my limited experience.

[Lincoln 7]

Moggy, The more this thread is disected, the more frightning it gets, surely, as President, Obama, "Should" be able to overule or overhaul the 2nd,?.or has it just become a way of life and perfectly acceptable, as the norm?.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

[Moggy C]

Linc, I'm afraid our cousins have painted themselves into a corner.

There are millions of uncontrolled weapons in the US, so the NRA can take the platform with "Laws only take guns from the good guys, not the bad guys" (for which there is a certain amount of truth.) and allow the poor souls to convince themselves that they are safer with a gun in the house than not.

The fact that a significant proportion of people are killed by their family, who would not die if there wasn't a gun readily to hand in the home, is conveniently glossed over.

The Republican party gets massive financial support from the NRA. They are the turkeys who cannot possibly vote for Christmas. And they control the Senate

Moggy

[Lincoln 7]

Hmmm, So much for democracy

Jim.
Lincoln .7

[ZRX61]

Exactly! Statistically, if you own a gun in the US, the person most likely to be shot with it is yourself or a member of your family.

That's actually a complete myth. The govt figures don't even come close to suggesting that.

[David Burke]

Really ?Gun suicide or even familly murder isn't that common then?

[ZRX61]

I had myself, as I used to go around schools, to demonstrate gun safety, several lethal weapons, these included an over and under 12 gauge, a side by side, same gauge, a Ruger Section 1 Firearm, and a WW2 303, all of which were in fine working order. They were kept in a very heavy steel cabinet, the door of which had 2 deadlocks fitted, the ammo was also in the cabinet, which had 3 more compartments inside, the doors of which also had deadlocks on them.
The keys to the cabinet were all kept in a safe with a combination lock, the combination of which non of my family knew.Both gun safe and key safe were bolted into the concrete floor in a room of the house. Also, all windows and doors were alarmed, and night time P.I.Rs were fitted.All this, when I was a Police Officer.

Not a slight on you, but the local range I use has a separate area for cops to do shooting as the owner doesn't want any of his civvie customers getting shot by cops. Look at what happened in NY a while back, guy shot his boss, cops show up, shot him dead & manage to shoot another 10 people...

I would like to hear from a Forum member from the U.S.A. to explain just what obtaining any lethal weapons involves.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

Passing your driving test is usually sufficient.

It's a very valid point. I don't feel the need to keep an automatic weapon in my home.

Automatic weapons were outlawed in the US in 1934

I think some American people have just got the President " Pissed Off "

I belive that certain individuals are about to get their toys taken off them .

Hopefully before they have a hissy fit & start quoting " The consitution " & throw their guns out of the Pram !!

50% of the worlds guns are owned bt US Citizens ...WTF is that all about ???

There are 300million privatly owned firearms in the US...What the F. is that all about ??

94,388 people have already been shot in the USA this year !!!!

Time for Change !!!!

In that case I suggest you emigrate here & do something about it. Incidently, Obama had the total lack of class & respect & turned the memorial service into a campaign speech....

[ZRX61]

Really ?Gun suicide or even familly murder isn't that common then?

That's not what I said. & access to guns doesn't change the suicide numbers, just the method.

[David Burke]

Lincoln - I think your confusing democracy with the lobbying power of the corporations! There is money to be made from guns hence why gun legislation is incredibly hard to get through.

Quite why the mum of the shooter in this case needed an M4 and two pistols is probably beyond most people ! However when the second amendment was written America was still quite unstable -times have decidedly changed but the right to bear arms hasn't been ammended and the paranoia about federal control is very much alive!

[David Burke]

Whats a myth then?? Govt figures find no relation between gun ownership and suicide ? Or that its not that unusual for people to shoot themselves /members of their families?

Really do you have any figures to prove that people who use a gun for suicide would use another method ? That seems incredibly hard to prove

[Moggy C]

That's actually a complete myth. The govt figures don't even come close to suggesting that.

The Arthur Kellermann study on the role of the firearm in domestic incident published in the New England Journal of Medicine, found that for each homicide that was committed in self-defense(sic) in the home, there were 37 suicides, 1.3 accidental deaths, and 4.6 criminal homicides.

What do the 'Government figures' suggest?

Moggy

[ZRX61]

Today's scary statistics

The slaughter of children by gunfire in the United States is 25 times the rate of the 20 next largest industrial countries in the world combined.

Moggy

US figures for *children* include anyone up to the age of 21. That somewhat skews the result.

[ZRX61]

Whats a myth then?? Govt figures find no relation between gun ownership and suicide ? Or that its not that unusual for people to shoot themselves /members of their families?

Really do you have any figures to prove that people who use a gun for suicide would use another method ? That seems incredibly hard to prove

If guns caused more suicides, then the rate of suicide would be lower in area where guns are prohibited. Chicago & New York for instance. That isn't the case.

[David Burke]

Ah thats ok then once they are over eighteen who cares!

[ZRX61]

Quite why the mum of the shooter in this case needed an M4 and two pistols is probably beyond most people ! However when the second amendment was written America was still quite unstable -times have decidedly changed but the right to bear arms hasn't been ammended and the paranoia about federal control is very much alive!

Why is it *beyond most people* to have two pistols? Some people like to have a wheel gun & a semi auto. The M4 could have been a Korean War bring back.

[ZRX61]

Ah thats ok then once they are over eighteen who cares!

WTF? are you deliberately being obtuse? Mogs posted the figures for *kids*, I pointed out that it included 21yo's that skew the figures. If you can't have a rational discussion about the subject maybe you should pick another thread?

[David Burke]

Chicago and New York would in my mind strike me as places where there is high stress and familily related pressure make suicide more prevalent.

[ZRX61]

So you're actually suggesting stress is the cause of suicide, not access to firearms? How much time have you spent in the US?

[Moggy C]

US figures for *children* include anyone up to the age of 21. That somewhat skews the result.

I would assume the definition of children used would have been standardised so that comparison with the next 20 countries was valid. But I have no way of confirming that, any more than you have of refuting it, so we may as well let it ride.

Moggy

[David Burke]

I think you need to look a bit more at the detail. The M-4 was a Bushmaster .223 which has nothing to do with the Korean War. The other weapons were a Sig Sauer and a Glock. Hardly entry level weapons and to most minds probably more than is needed in most households!

I am afraid that saying that the survey is slewed by having 21 yr olds included is akin to trying to make a problem appear smaller than it is.

[Moggy C]

The M4 could have been a Korean War bring back.

It could have been, but it wasn't.

It was in fact a Bushmaster .223, a cheap and not particularly well made cloney look-alike for the AR15, bought by his mother who thought it would help bring up her children with a respect for guns.

Nancy Lanza, whose gun collection was raided by her son Adam, then used to kill her before Friday’s massacre at Sandy Hook school, was part of the “Prepper” movement, which urges readiness for social chaos by hoarding supplies and training with weapons.

http://thesurvivalmom.com/category/p...ared/firearms/

Moggy

[David Burke]

I think you already know that by choosing Chicago and New York you have an entirely different demographic to other parts of the country. Having a gun ban doesn't mean people don't die there from gun suicide -it means that apart from guns people die from jumping off bridges and jumping in front of tube trains as well.

As for time in the U.S -only a little but quite a while working with U.S citizens abroad which gave me quite an insight .

[ZRX61]

ah, so the mum was a bit unhinged as well. Glocks & Sigs are fairly popular choices, nothing alarming about that. I prefer S&W myself:


as does my kid:


and Rugers:


and Savages:


& thank you for proving my point about suicide DB

[paul178]

2nd Amendment
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Fine over 200 years ago but

There are a lot of guys and gals out there that envision themselves as patriots and have a "from my cold, dead hands" attitude about gun ownership. But I don't suffer any delusions about their chances as a revolutionary. There are a lot of fantasies tossed around about "taking America back" by force... Please. An armed revolution against the established government may have been an option in days gone by, and may still be in some less-developed countries. But, America is a superpower. In these days of laser-guided bombs and drone strikes, it's hard to imagine a populace, even armed, standing much of a chance in an uprising against the military complex. In that awful scenario, it's not going to be about magazine capacity and semi-auto vs bolt-action; it's going to be about guerrilla warfare and sabotage. It doesn't matter how many thousands of rounds of ammo you have stockpiled, if the military wants to get rid of you and your supply of weapons, they're not going to get into a firefight and see who runs out of ammo first; they're just going to make you a smoking crater, and you will never know what hit you.

[ZRX61]

Americans might have the means to overthrown an oppressive govt, but first they'd have to get off their **** & actually DO something. That isn't going to happen, they just had a President win the election with 69,456,897 votes... with 230,000,000 eligible voters...

[David Burke]

Not sure I did prove your point about suicide really sadly. New York and Chicago as you say have high levels of suicide in areas where there is strict gun control . Therefore people choose other means -the walk to the bridge
or the jump in front of the train allow for a degree of premeditation . Whether there would be more suicide if gun control was lax I don't know .

Interestingly in the U.K there used to be a quite high incidence of farmers taking their own lives with shotguns - often under stress due to financial pressure . Whether that suicide level would have bee so high if people didn't have access to a means
that was judged to be quick and easy remains to be seen.

[ZRX61]

I didn't say they had high levels of suicide, I indicated it wasn't any lower than anywhere else.

.. just as it isn't any higher where people do have access to firearms.

[David Burke]

Looking at the figures -New York seems to be quite successful in its programme to reduce suicide. It certainly has a lower level of suicide than the surrounding state . Gun availability has been cited as a factor but there are other factors. Sadly the figures for gun ownership do show quite clear corelations in terms of age group - time of ownership and suicide rate.

What I do find interesting is that the mum is percieved to be some kind of 'nut' due to her views. In my experience I don't find the notion that at some time there will be social disorder and a need for weapons that unusual a view point.

[Creaking Door]

Exactly! Statistically, if you own a gun in the US, the person most likely to be shot with it is yourself or a member of your family.

That's actually a complete myth. The govt figures don't even come close to suggesting that.

Are you sure? Including figures for suicides?

I’m not saying that owning a gun makes a gun owner more likely to commit suicide, and I’m not saying that access to guns increases the suicide rate...

...what I am saying is that if you own a gun, statistically, the person most likely to be shot with that gun is yourself.

[ZRX61]

It was debunked some time ago, but I have no idea where the report is now.