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Thread: U.S.A Second Amendment re-think

  1. #31
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    I'd also be interested to know.
    "Behold! The Wings of Horus"

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar Brooks View Post
    Give a bit more consideration to the central, suffering, characters, in this, and a bit less to telling another country how to behave...
    Nobody is telling anybody how to behave; we are discussing gun-control...

    ...and the only reference I have made to the recent tragedy is to question why the family of the perpetrator felt the need to keep semi-automatic weapons in the family home.
    WA$.

  3. #33
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    It's a very valid point. I don't feel the need to keep an automatic weapon in my home.

  4. #34
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    The point I am TRYING to make, is that would the control of the issuing of Firearms be better structured, in the States, as ours is here in the U.K?.
    I, and many others here, have used and are familiar with the 303, just an example, I went to renew a Farmers Firearms Certificate, one of the needed questions, was, "Why do you need a 303 Firearm?.
    His reply, that he needed it to shoot rats and vermin on his Farm.
    I suggested there was no need for that caliber of weapon to shoot rats, and to cut a long story short, I took the weapon away from him, and placed it in the gun cabinet in the Station, until he applied for, and was granted a certificate to obtain a 22 rimfire, which, even that was over the top, but he would still be able to shoot the odd Fox and rats.
    He was quite understanding regarding my suggestion, and surrendered the 303, which would then have been melted down as scrap.In the last 3yrs, this man had not used a single round of ammunition.

    Jim.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creaking Door View Post
    You’re right, the debate should take place on an ‘average’ day...

    ...when only about eighty-five people in the US will be killed by guns.
    Did I say that? No. I think you know what I meant!
    Charlie

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  6. #36
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    No, I know what you meant...

    ...but I just wanted to point out that this ‘isolated tragedy’ is happening about three times a day, every day, somewhere in the US.
    WA$.

  7. #37
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    No doubt, but equally, what I meant was that we do not see these on coast to coast as well as worldwide TV with the President displaying his grief in public.
    Charlie

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  8. #38
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    I wonder what the public reaction would be if the other 99.9% of US gun-deaths were given the same amount of publicity as this most recent tragedy?

    Sadly, I suspect one effect would be an increase in gun sales.
    WA$.

  9. #39
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    Yes, you could well be right. One thing is for sure that it is extremely unlikely that the culture which marries the average US citizen with his firearm is going to change in the near future.
    Charlie

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  10. #40
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    According to Obama today, on the News, he is quote, "Going to make changes",
    What they are, one can only guess.
    The public will only stand so much, then there may well be mayhem, I agree with C.D. it's happening on too much a regular basis.EVERY day.
    Singular shootings or multipal, it needs the brakes applying, and soon.
    Any Law can be changed, unfortunately this seems to happen when only the Politicians benefit from the change.

    Jim.

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  11. #41
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    Well he has to say that, of course. But he cannot do anything without the support of Congress. He has promised action before but has done nothing and at the moment when he is embroiled in complex and sensitive budget negotiations with Republicans he is unlikely to do anything to prejudice a reasonable accommodation to resolve the fiscal cliff.
    Charlie

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  12. #42
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    It's a sad day when money takes more attention, than the murder of all those children.
    I would have a moratorium on so called "Fiscal changes", until things are changed regarding gun ownership,
    But as it always is...........................Money rules.
    Jim.
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  13. #43
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    The two are disconnected. It is unfortunate timing that this appalling event has taken place now. Characterising it as being money over murder is both simplistic and wrong. Under the constitutional system the implications for not resolving the fiscal cliff will be felt by every US citizen.

    Even if it were possible how long do you suppose it would take to effect a fundemental change in a key and deeply seated clause in the constitution which no one has been able to achieve in the decades during which has been discussed and which will cause deep seated divisions both politically and socially?
    Charlie

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  14. #44
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    Two quotes ( By Americans )

    "Americans are the only race which passed directly from barbarism to decadence without knowing civilisation."

    Or : " How much longer are we going to think it necessary to be " American " before being cultivated , being enlightened , being humane , & having the same intellectual discipline as other civilised countries ?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehunt View Post
    It is unfortunate timing that this appalling event has taken place now.

    I would respectfully suggest that it is even more unfortunate that this appalling event ever took place at all.

    At the end of the day it seems enough Americans believe that their right to bear arms is an inalienable one. With rights come responsibilities. As long as enough Americans believe that the responsibility for massacres (how else can it be described?) like the one in Connecticut lie solely with the perpetrator then there will be no respite.

    It's just ineffably sad that people still believe that their right to keep a gun in a gun cabinet/cupboard/tucked under the pillow outweighs the rights of twenty children and seven adults to live a peaceful life.

    Regards,

    kev35
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  16. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by kev35 View Post
    I would respectfully suggest that it is even more unfortunate that this appalling event ever took place at all.
    kev35
    Of course, but you quoted my comment out of the context in which it was written.
    Charlie

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  17. #47
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    One can't help idly wondering how the mother, who doubtless would have supported the NRA and its aims, felt in those last few seconds as her own bargain-basement assault rifle was turned on her.

    A Damascene conversion to tighter gun laws perhaps?

    Moggy
    "What you must remember" Flip said "is that nine-tenths of Cattermole's charm lies beneath the surface." Many agreed.

  18. #48
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    The facts are still coming in as to how he was able to get his mother's firearms. However, rather than what you opined I think the last thing going through her head was how could he kill his own mother.

    As I am from across the pond, I figured I would throw my two cents in, since apparently a few people did ask.

    Many Americans, myself included, believe that it is an unalienable right to keep and bear arms, just as the other 9 original amendments can not be thrown away (However, a lot of us Libertarians are getting quite annoyed at how the Federal government continues to use our Constitution and Bill of Rights as toiletpaper, but I digress.)

    What many people do not understand across the pond, let alone in this very country, is that the 2nd amendment was put in place not just to form a well regulated militia, or to allow people to carry firearms and defend themselves, it was also designed to be the last and final check against a government that no longer served at the will of the people. This is the fundamental, very basic reason this clause was put in the Bill of Rights. The founding fathers (Well most of them, there's always a few plants here and there) thoroughly detested and did not trust government. We have come a long way as a nation since then, and have seen the size, scope and power of the Federal Government increase exponentially. Now, many of us will argue about this fact, but again, I will try and stay on topic.

    About the murder rate in this county: Fact- Most of the murders that happen are young black males in inner cities, and it is usually over drugs/turf war (same difference). These are not made up facts, this is the god's honest truth. I don't have the statistics in front of me, but if anyone wants them just let me know and I will go digging.

    My answer to this problem? End the drug war, legalize all drugs (We have already seen what happens in this country with prohibition). However, this will have complications obviously, but with some common sense they can be overcome. However, the Law Enforcement, State and Prison entities will not like this as they will loose out on a lot of money each year, well into the billions, so that is another issue of special interest getting in the way of common sense.

    Now some of you may ask why I don't care about those in the inner cities or these young children that were killed at the school. I do care, I've been called a racist and I will admit I do have racist tendencies from time to time, I think most of us would be lying if we said we never did. However, they are still people on the same rock as me, but I want to fix the problem, and not put a bandaid on it.

    As for the children I feel that it is a travesty and a great shame. Hopefully, once we have all the facts (and not cherry picked facts as our news media over here likes to do) we can get the answers we need and use it as a teaching lesson, if there is anything to learn. We can't say for sure how he got his mother's firearms. If she was careless with how she kept them, well then once again, we can learn that you keep your firearms locked up. Or, he could have threatened her with a knife to open the safe. We still don't know.

    I think the other thing that was asked was about regulations on quantity, etc etc. This is something that is going to vary from state to state. But here in Pennsylvania, I can own as many firearms as I want and as much ammunition as I please. In order to buy a Shotgun, Rife or "Assault Rifle" I simply go to a store, they do a background check, and I walk out with it. If the deal is between two private individuals, transfer is done simply by a shake of the hand and money exchanged.

    Handguns are a little more intensive, but I can still go into any store and walk out with one that day. Transfers between individuals is prohibited, you have to do it with a "go between" federally licensed dealer.

    To finish, I would also like to say that the number of crimes prevented in this country because of someone bearing a firearm is also very high. Don't forget, we already had laws on the books to prevent this sort of occurrence, the School, as all schools in the country, are Gun Free Zones, with very strict penalties. But this time, as with most emotion based legislation, it only served to disarm the people that needed to be armed the most.

    I hope this has helped answer some questions and if you have anymore, I will do my best to reply

    Thanks!
    Last edited by Deano; 18th December 2012 at 08:17. Reason: COC Rule 14
    People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf....

  19. #49
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    Thanks for that insight into the US gun owner's pyche. I am sure we all found things within it that were enlightening.

    But if I may just address your last paragraph. Should we take that to mean you think that primary school teachers should be routinely armed?

    Moggy
    "What you must remember" Flip said "is that nine-tenths of Cattermole's charm lies beneath the surface." Many agreed.

  20. #50
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    Thank you for all of that. We, over here, can have opinions about how you order your affairs but we are certainly in no position to dish out advice or recommend actions to be taken.
    Charlie

    Keep smiling - it's never as bad as you think!!

  21. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moggy C View Post
    Thanks for that insight into the US gun owner's pyche. I am sure we all found things within it that were enlightening.

    But if I may just address your last paragraph. Should we take that to mean you think that primary school teachers should be routinely armed?

    Moggy

    I think anyone that wants to be armed for defense should have the ability to do so, as long as they are not a crackpot of some sort. To put it simply, I believe we all have personal choice, and it is not correct for me to place my beliefs on another, or vice versa. That pretty much sums up my feelings on the law. Here is a better way of saying this, written by a much more articulate man than myself, and it is basically my mantra when it comes to government and politics.


    http://federationist.org/platform.html


    It is a website but that page will sum up the general idea, among a myriad of other things.

    By the way, I appreciate the fact that quite a few people have said it is not their business when it comes to how we choose to govern ourselves. Believe me, there are quite a few of us in the states that are fed up with Washington DC's talking out of both sides of it's mouth when it comes to foreign policy, but again, I do not want to derail this topic.
    People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf....

  22. #52
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    Certainly, we wouldn't tolerate US citizens dictating our laws to us, any more than we will allow the Eurocrats to. You have the right to do as the majority of your citizens wish.

    That this particular right is paid for by the shattered and blood-soaked bodies of six year-old girls is a somewhat unfortunate consequence.

    We watched on our news tonight clips of Clinton mouthing "We must do something" platitudes in the aftermath of Columbine, and then Bush doing the same a few years later after some other school massacre. Then Obamaha doing exactly the same today..

    Nothing will change, of that you can be sure, and certainly more massacres like last week's will happen.

    I don't envy you Chuck

    Moggy
    "What you must remember" Flip said "is that nine-tenths of Cattermole's charm lies beneath the surface." Many agreed.

  23. #53
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    I think some American people have just got the President " Pissed Off "

    I belive that certain individuals are about to get their toys taken off them .

    Hopefully before they have a hissy fit & start quoting " The consitution " & throw their guns out of the Pram !!

    50% of the worlds guns are owned bt US Citizens ...WTF is that all about ???

    There are 300million privatly owned firearms in the US...What the F. is that all about ??

    94,388 people have already been shot in the USA this year !!!!

    Time for Change !!!!

  24. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by AutoStick View Post
    Time for Change !!!!
    Well that's up to them and how many times have we heard that particular mantra?
    Charlie

    Keep smiling - it's never as bad as you think!!

  25. #55
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    I agree, I don't envy any of us in this country when we have a political class that in all reality does not care about us at all, but then again, we have the government people have voted in. However, I am supposed to be living in a Republic, and not a Democracy, but as usual, I am getting off subject.

    I would also like to say that while this massacre is obviously terrible, it also makes great news headlines. Did you hear about the gunmen that stopped his killing spree while in another "No Gun Zone" when someone, breaking the law by carrying defensively, simply unholstered his weapon and the gunmen then turned the firearm on himself and took his own life? Most haven't, it would not fit in with the agenda. Most of these "crazies" are just smart enough to understand, if you want to go on a killing spree, you are better off doing it where you believe no one will be able to fight back. We don't hear of to many people walking into a police station looking for a fight, do we?

    While it is easy to say "We need to ban all of these terrible firearms", we are really not, as a society, getting to the root of the problem. Most of these mass shootings are being committed by young, white males who are outcast of society. Why are they? What kind of medications are they on? I do not know how it is across the pond, but doctors here in the states like to hand out anti-depressants and other mind altering psychiatric drugs like candy. While there is a time and place for these medications, I believe they are often over prescribed, since "we" as Americans would rather take a pill to fix all of our ills rather than get to the bottom of the issue.

    Again, most of the murders, a disproportionate number based on population, are of young, black males in inner cities. Why should I, someone who lives within 100 miles of the inner cities of Philadelphia, Baltimore and Washington DC, give up my rights because of a bunch of gang bangers? I could say a solution to that problem would be to shoot on sight within the borders of the cities, but, that would not be rational, would it? I want to get to the bottom of these problems without infringing on anyone else's rights. But since politicians are more interested in getting reelected, and any discussion of race in this country will get you immediately branded a racist, nothing ever changes.

    That is what is so shockingly sad and disturbing. We have the answers in front of our faces, but no one is willing to tackle and talk about these tough issues because it is not politically expedient.


    And finally, yes, there are well over 300 million firearms in this country and growing. But, and this is pretty easy to figure out, how many of those firearms are used maliciously? The percentage is very low.

    Great conversation gents, hopefully I can help anyone out with any further questions/ideas.
    Last edited by chuck1981; 17th December 2012 at 18:56. Reason: repeated myself
    People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf....

  26. #56
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    CHUCK 1981. I guess you have read my threads, just a couple of questions.
    What security of weapons is placed on the owners of Firearms, be it hand guns or What we Call Section 1 Firearms, to put it simply, a weapon that fires projectiles such as the 762 projectile or a smaller, point 22 rimfire ?.

    Do the Police, as we do over here, visit folks who have weapons, and check if they still have them,what security they have,for such weapons, if the owner has sold their weapon on by a mere handshake, is any documentation made available by the seller to the purchaser, or do they "Get lost".
    We are not, as an individual allowed by Law to own a PROHIBITED weapon, ie, an RPG, or a fully automatic weapon. Only a Firearms dealer may have the right to purchase such weapons, and then only to another dealer, or to a dealer overseas, it's a very complicated procedure.
    However, it seems that obtaining any firearm on your side of the pond is easier than it is here in the U.K.
    I have heard, that a special "Rights to carry in public", a handgun, a special licence is needed?.
    Just a few thing I would like to know if it's not too much trouble, and very many thanks for taking the time and trouble to put you side to us Brits on the Forum.

    Jim.
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  27. #57
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    It's no problem at all Lincoln 7, I actually have the day off but it seems that your weather over there has decided to stop right over my area and I've been in the soup all day So what better way to spend it, other than cleaning clothes and cooking?

    I will just go point by point:

    1.Section 1 Firearms : We do not differentiate between 7.62 or 22. One reason is, and this is where I get into arguments all the time with sportsmen, is that they will say who needs an assault/black rifle? I ask them what caliber they use to hunt, and a very popular cartridge is the 30-06 of M1 Garand fame from WWII. Again, it's the slippery slope theory, but it's been proven right time and time again over here. If you were asking about a security system, such as a safe? There is no law requiring any such device, but most responsible owners have them locked up for safety, let alone loosing them in a fire.

    2. Police: We (well a lot of us) would never allow cursory inspections of our homes, to be blunt. And not just because of firearms, but because we don't believe in the Police being able to do whatever they want without a court order, and anyone that would try to pass this by the use of legislation would have a very hard time. This would totally destroy the 4th ammendment (Illegal Search and Seizure). Again, this is another lengthy discussion by itself.

    3. Person to Person sales: If two people want to transfer the firearm with paperwork, they can go to a licensed dealer, pay a fee and have the paperwork done. One thing to remember; there is not supposed to be a national/state/local database of all firearms in this country, although reports are coming out that this isn't exactly true. Therefore paperwork should be "useless". But yes, otherwise, those firearms are "lost". We have a saying that it was such a shame, but all of my gold and firearms were lost in a tragic boating accident.

    4. Prohibited Firearms: While there aren't any "prohibited" firearms, fully automatic and explosive devices are tightly controlled. As an individual, if I want to pay a "tax" (Ironically enough, this is how they "banned" certain classes of firearms, they did not make them illegal, just very expensive to own/buy/sell). You have to have a special license on top of the tax, and following the 1986 machine gun law no one except for Law Enforcement/Gvt etc etc can own, buy or sell a fully automatic firearm and other such devices made from 1986 and afterwards. But what we call "pre-ban" or "pre 86' " are legal to own and operate, provided you have your papers in order.

    5. Carry License: This gets tricky as the states define these laws and not the Federal Government. However, here in Pennsylvania, I can go to the local courthouse, fill out some paperwork, and expect to see the concealed carry permit within a few weeks, the waiting period is not long. They will of course do a background check. However, Pennsylvania is also what we call an Open Carry State. This means that I can walk around carrying my defensive handgun (or in reality anything else) as long as it is visible. This also gets tricky, for we have two counties at opposite corners of the state that hold our two largest cities (Philadelphia and Pittsburgh) that have issues with the inner city violence I previously mentioned. So, even though State Law says one thing, these two counties try to supersede state law, although their cases have been thrown out of State Court.


    One thing to remember, and one thing I try to teach people about over here even, is that originally the United States was supposed to be more like the European Union. Each "State" was to have most of the control in it's hands, while the Federal Government was to be the "mediator" between states and obviously form a single foreign policy. It is much more complicated than that, but I am researching and learning daily as this is not taught anymore. Originally, there was not supposed to be a strong central government, but that was thrown out of the window during the Civil War and we haven't looked back since, which in my eyes, is a problem.

    I also want to point out that I am no expert on any of this, but I try to learn as much as I can and at least have a decent understanding of it and any other subject I talk about.
    Last edited by chuck1981; 17th December 2012 at 20:00. Reason: More Information
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  28. #58
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    Chuck1981.

    Well, I certainly got my 5 bucks worth I am now enlightened regarding your States Legislation, and again, many thanks.
    I still think however, and may I state this is just MY opinion, yes, I agree that in your Country if the Law of the land states you may have, and carry, god forbid, firearms in the street, then so be it.but still state, far too few folks have far more weapons than they need. and also the fact that weapons can change hands so easily.
    I was pulled over in a car I was driving, in Flagstaff AZ, 2 MPH over the limit, as the Officer approached me he put his hand on his gun holder and pulled the strap.
    I was dressed in a "T" shirt and shorts, I held my arms out and turned around so he could see I was unarmed. I was told to assume the position,I told him to take my wallet from my back pocket where he would find my Warrant Card proving I was a Brit Cop.Didn't do much good, as he issued me with a ticket for exceeding the limit, fair cop as we say here in the U.K. I broke the Law, I paid for it, however his aggressive manner, and the fact he was prepared to draw his gun, when he could obviously see I was unarmed, was quite disturbing.

    Jim.
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  29. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuck1981 View Post
    I think anyone that wants to be armed for defense should have the ability to do so, as long as they are not a crackpot of some sort. To put it simply, I believe we all have personal choice, and it is not correct for me to place my beliefs on another, or vice versa.
    People can become 'crackpots' in the twinkling of an eye. It can take no more than a fleeting moment for a completely rational individual to become deranged, to act totally out of character, to snap, use whatever terminology you're most comfortable with. Had the semi automatic weapons not been in front of him those people would have been alive now.

    You say, eloquently and succintly, that.....

    I believe we all have personal choice, and it is not correct for me to place my beliefs on another, or vice versa.

    But what about the inalienable rights of the twenty six people who died? Seems that those rights come secondary at best to the consideration of the Second Amendment.

    Regarding that Second Amendment you again write eloquently that.....

    What many people do not understand across the pond, let alone in this very country, is that the 2nd amendment was put in place not just to form a well regulated militia, or to allow people to carry firearms and defend themselves, it was also designed to be the last and final check against a government that no longer served at the will of the people. This is the fundamental, very basic reason this clause was put in the Bill of Rights. The founding fathers (Well most of them, there's always a few plants here and there) thoroughly detested and did not trust government. We have come a long way as a nation since then, and have seen the size, scope and power of the Federal Government increase exponentially.

    So exactly how does that work? How and by whom is it decided that the Government are no longer reflecting the will of the people? Who then decides that it is time to take up arms against your elected Government? America prides itself on being a Democracy, yet enshrined in its own laws is the right of the people to overthrow their elected Government by force of arms.

    And what happened this weekend? Twenty little kids, and by all accounts some very brave school staff, found themselves laid out on mortuary slabs. The easy availability of both legal and illegal firearms is THE central factor in all of this.

    In a Country where all men are allegedly created equal, why are the rights of a citizen to bear arms considered more important than the rights of twenty kids to have the expectation of not being murdered in a place where they are being nurtured and educated?

    Regards,

    kev35
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  30. #60
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    Today's scary statistics

    The slaughter of children by gunfire in the United States is 25 times the rate of the 20 next largest industrial countries in the world combined.

    More than a million Americans deprived of their right to breathe by gunfire since Kennedy and Luther King were killed.

    But, as we never tire of saying - nothing to do with us. We can only stand back in disbelief and watch how effectively the NRA lobbying prevents action that anyone with a braincell can see might just be worth trying

    Moggy
    "What you must remember" Flip said "is that nine-tenths of Cattermole's charm lies beneath the surface." Many agreed.

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