Key.Aero Network
Register Free

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 34

Thread: If you thought the Whirlwind project was mad..

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Cambridge, Duxfordshire
    Posts
    1,036

    If you thought the Whirlwind project was mad..

    Here's a thought.

    This has always been a 'what if' of mine. So I thought I would ask the question. What would it take to reproduce a static but floating Short 'C' Class Empire boat? What is out there? Does anyone know of factory drawings?

    Just as a thought experiment.. but not as far fetched as it first seems as a project like this - a lost concept in travel, a symbol of a golden age / imperialistic oppression (depending on your point of view)- could well qualify for 'heritage industry' funding where a warplane might not.

    It could be done on the basis of complete CAD model first and then, when completely happy, a build.

    What are people's thoughts?

    Matt
    Last edited by Beermat; 7th December 2012 at 11:03.
    www.whirlwindfighterproject.org
    It's all good. Probably.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    1,042
    Utter lunacy would be my first thought!

    It would be great though, the lack of a surviving C class is a great hole in our heritage.

    Are there any substantial wrecks anywhere?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    5,869
    Last edited by TonyT; 7th December 2012 at 11:49.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Cambridge, Duxfordshire
    Posts
    1,036
    Wow - yes, that's the sort of thing I had in mind. Then get it to pay for itself as a floating restaurant or somesuch.

    Got to be do-able, if they can do it, we can! Anyone on here from Solent Sky?
    Last edited by Beermat; 7th December 2012 at 11:56.
    www.whirlwindfighterproject.org
    It's all good. Probably.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    near Edinburgh
    Posts
    1,012
    If you thought the Whirlwind project was mad..


    No I dont, its a realistic project that still has many hurdles to overcome but I feel is well within the capabilities of the team as long as finance can be obtained for the materials.

    I read a few years ago about a group in Scotland building a part of a flying boat, but have been unable to locate any progress.
    Robert Whitton,
    Edinburgh, Scotland

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    866
    I believe that there are the remains of 2 pre-war civillian Short flyingboats in various parts of the world, they are underwater, & at least 1 is at a diveable depth, & therefore it should be possible to recover the remains for use as patterns etc, should anyone wish to have a go at building one that is. After-all, if you don't try something, you will never know if it is possible or not.

    Bob T.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Below waterlevel
    Posts
    1,109
    The notorious Broome harbour "incident" where Dutch Dorniers etc were sunk, weren't there one or two C-class boats involved? I remember seeing a documentary where a wing was shown underwater.
    Cees

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Torquay - previously Hampshire
    Posts
    514
    If the objective is to produce a replica....how would using a Sunderland/Hythe etc as a starting point be?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Cambridge, Duxfordshire
    Posts
    1,036
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Whitton View Post
    If you thought the Whirlwind project was mad..


    No I dont, its a realistic project that still has many hurdles to overcome but I feel is well within the capabilities of the team as long as finance can be obtained for the materials.
    Haha - neither do I. I am one of that team! But it has been said of us.
    www.whirlwindfighterproject.org
    It's all good. Probably.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    819

    Mad.

    Yes, Bonkers...!

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Cambridge, Duxfordshire
    Posts
    1,036
    Quote Originally Posted by daveg4otu View Post
    If the objective is to produce a replica....how would using a Sunderland/Hythe etc as a starting point be?
    If one was to produce a replica I would only use any common parts as a pattern. If it's going to be a replica it might as well be an uncompromisingly accurate one (ref Whirlwind again). Unless you mean do a T6/Zero job on someone's Sunderland..
    www.whirlwindfighterproject.org
    It's all good. Probably.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    1,204
    Geoff Reichelt of AirWave Yachts in Australia whose company built the convincing fullsize fibreglass replica DH50 for Qantas has looked into building an Empire Flying Boat replica and has evidently built a 1:10 scale Empire
    http://www.airwaveyachts.com.au/Aircraft/Index.html

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    2,867
    If they can build full -size replica Lancasters ( and the Chinese have) , technically it is a reasonable notion.

    As always, just a matter of money.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    452
    According to Brian Cassidy, who has spent a lot of time researching the 'boats and wrote "Flying Empires", there aren't even any reliable 3-view Shorts drawings of the class, let alone a reasonable set of blueprints. So any replica would have to be 'best guess' based on Sunderland.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Cambridge, Duxfordshire
    Posts
    1,036
    Hmm - don't fancy 'guessing'. For me it would either be pull one up from just off Broome, or hope the plans are in fact down the back of someone's sofa.

    But these Chinese Lanc repros - tell me more!
    www.whirlwindfighterproject.org
    It's all good. Probably.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Cornwall-on-Hudson, NY, USA
    Posts
    536
    As I remember, the Tupperware Lancs were made for Peter Jackson's Dambusters remake, and there are photos of them floating around. Seen them on this forum, I believe.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    1,417
    Quote Originally Posted by Beermat View Post
    Hmm - don't fancy 'guessing'. For me it would either be pull one up from just off Broome, or hope the plans are in fact down the back of someone's sofa.

    But these Chinese Lanc repros - tell me more!
    I don't think that any remains off Broome are suitable for 'pulling up', apart from the fact that they were blasted into scrap before the weather did its bit for 70 years, are they not a war grave?
    Martin

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Cambridge, Duxfordshire
    Posts
    1,036
    Not sure - was anyone on board the Empires?

    One man's scrap is another's vital engineering information.. so it would be worth looking into, at least - in the absence of anything else.

    By the way, I found this: http://www.users.waitrose.com/~mbcass/

    with the download at http://www.users.waitrose.com/~mbcas...%20Empires.pdf

    Cheers,

    M
    Last edited by Beermat; 7th December 2012 at 20:59.
    www.whirlwindfighterproject.org
    It's all good. Probably.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Pentridge, Dorset
    Posts
    331
    Tupperware lanc
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Cambridge, Duxfordshire
    Posts
    1,036
    Thanks. What is it made of?
    www.whirlwindfighterproject.org
    It's all good. Probably.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    5,869
    Seem to remember fibreglass and steel frame and runnable?

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Sunbury,Australia...just down from Murphy the wonder dog.
    Posts
    264
    Broome would be a non starter,the larger items left are believed to be
    Catalina or Dornier,and they can only be accessed during King Tides,
    even then you will need a rapid form of transport,as the tide is
    faster than most people can run.
    Even then, these items are in worse than relic condition.
    Attached is at Broome airport.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	bme2.JPG 
Views:	71 
Size:	57.2 KB 
ID:	210294   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	bme1.JPG 
Views:	61 
Size:	61.4 KB 
ID:	210295  

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Victoria Australia
    Posts
    1,700
    I dont think theres anything substantial of an Empire Flying boat left at Broome and I dont think the WA government will permit any recovery or disturbance of those wrecks in anycase, the tide would be the least of your troubles.

    I understand Qantas Founders have a full scale Empire Flying Boat on their to do list.

    Regards

    Mark Pilkington
    "Never has a Country so Big!, owed so Much!, to those who Flew!"

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Cambridge, Duxfordshire
    Posts
    1,036
    Thanks folks - so yes, looks like the Australian ones are out. Sopwith, you mentioned a couple of others, one diveable?

    I'll not be doing it in the near future - I can barely afford a paddle in Hunstanton right now - but out of interest, where and which aircraft is that? Maybe I'll go investigate after I have won the lottery and if there's money left after I have bought a couple of Burmese Spitfires..

    Steel frame and fibreglass is all a bit too James May for me. I might just get in touch with Qantas though - happy to help!
    www.whirlwindfighterproject.org
    It's all good. Probably.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    866
    I came across the info some time ago, it was on one of the scuba diving websites. If I remember correctly one of them was in a river estuary somewhere in the far east. Perhaps they will still be where they are, after you have bought your spitfires :diablo:.

    Bob T.

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Cambridge, Duxfordshire
    Posts
    1,036
    Thanks Bob. I'll do some (metaphorical) digging.
    www.whirlwindfighterproject.org
    It's all good. Probably.

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Cambridge, Duxfordshire
    Posts
    1,036
    Have dug..

    Brian Cassidy's excellent 'Flying Empires' - available as a free download from the URL I gave earlier, states the following (The rest of this post is a quote with full acknowledgement of Brian cassidy as the Author):

    "UU CAVALIER lies in deep water in the Atlantic at N 37 17 W 069 45.

    Divers report that parts of V 3137 CABOT are still on the seabed in fairly shallow water off the Island of Mauren to the north of Bodø, inside the Arctic Circle.

    'UX CASSIOPEIA, its hull broken in two pieces, is just outside the entrance to Sabang Harbour. The bodies of one of the passengers and the baby were never found.

    'BD CORIO, on a flight from Darwin to Sourabaya to evacuate women and children, was shot down on fire into the water off the mouth of the Noelmini river, near Koepang. Three crew and fifteen passengers did not survive.

    ‘TZ CIRCE, complete with its crew of four and thirty passengers, is somewhere in the deep water between Tijlatjap and Broome, believed to have been shot down by Japanese fighters while on the last of the shuttle flights on 28 February 1942. 'TZ gave a position report at 10.25, about 130 n.m. (240 km.) out from Tijlatjap, the last message ever received.

    'UF CORINTHIAN is believed to be still in Darwin harbour although its whereabouts are not known. ’UF broke up and sank after a normal night alighting on Darwin harbour during the night of 21/22 March 1942, in good weather. Captain Ambrose was seriously injured, two passengers were killed and two seriously injured. It is thought that 'UF struck floating wreckage, as the accident occurred just a month after the bombing attack by Japanese aircraft on the harbour.

    The shattered remains of A18-10 CENTAURUS and 'UC CORINNA lie under the water off Broome, West Australia. An underwater side scan sonar survey of the harbour by archaeologists from the Western Australian Maritime Museum in 2001 revealed evidence of many of the wrecks. One of these is one of the two Empire ‘boats is at E 122deg. 15min. 12sec. S 18deg 00min. 48 sec. Anecdotal evidence indicates that it is probably A18-10. The Empire ‘boats were moored close together and with luck, they will be both identified in 2003. Underwater photographs show what seems to be an engine - the cooling gills are evident - and the blade of an airscrew.

    There is a remote possibility that A18-11 CALYPSO was salvaged as it does not appear on the list of crashed aircraft. If it was not salvaged, it lies with its nose stove in and the planing bottom ripped out in the shallow water to the north of Australia, with a member of its crew.

    The wreckage of 'CZ CLARE is in the Atlantic, brought down by fire at night, somewhere off Bathurst. The bodies of one of the crew and five of the passengers are buried at Bathurst but the other four crew members and eight passengers were never recovered.

    'DU CAMILLA is listed as crash No. 366, located 5 miles west of Port Moresby. The water in this area is shallow and a search of the area revealed nothing. It more probable that the remains of 'DU are on the ocean side of Nateara Reef, to the south of the Basilisk Light with two of the crew and eleven passengers. The bottom in the area is some 100 fathoms (180 m.), shelving down to 400 fathoms (730 m.). The positions of many of the hundreds of other aircraft wrecks in the waters around the coasts of Papua New Guinea are known and have been visited by divers but so far 'DU has eluded all efforts at discovery".
    Last edited by Beermat; 8th December 2012 at 13:12.
    www.whirlwindfighterproject.org
    It's all good. Probably.

  28. #28
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Aotearoa
    Posts
    1,315

    MOTAT

    There's one here
    never fear, Smith is here

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Cambridge, Duxfordshire
    Posts
    1,036
    Thanks!

    That is a Solent, though - not the C-class.
    www.whirlwindfighterproject.org
    It's all good. Probably.

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    866
    Well it looks like you could recover enough parts to make an accurate repro, all you need now is to win the lottery "anyone know what the numbers will be for tonights ? ".

    Bob T.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

- Part of the    Network -

KEY AERO AVIATION NEWS

MAGAZINES

AVIATION FORUM

SHOP

 

WEBSITES