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Thread: Tejas Mk1 and Mk2 thread

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackArcher View Post
    You must believe that its unheard of for any fighter that has not been fully developed to ever enter service to say that. The Typhoon Tranche 1 jets were not at the same level as the T3 jets and nor was Rafale F1 at the same capability level as the F3 today..so should their respective air forces have sat till T3 and F3 were developed?

    The Tejas Mk1 when it attains FOC will have met nearly all the goals of the ASR, with some relaxations made for performance (such as 8G max limit versus 9G specified by the ASR). Which isn't unheard of either, as we've seen with the relaxation of performance goals with the F-35 that you are such a huge fan of.

    The Tejas Mk2 aims to overcome all those minor performance limitations among other things. As things stand, those Tejas Mk1s will be far superior to the MiG-21 and the MiG-21 Bisons that are still flying in the IAF. Which is why it makes a lot of sense to get them into service, get air and ground crews familiar with the Tejas and start developing doctrines/tactics for utilizing it. Then, when the Mk2 arrives later in the decade, it won't be a totally new airplane for the IAF.

    I don't think we are talking about an F-15A vs F-15C. The LCA MK I is underpowered which the IAF has been very candid about. As matter of fact so underpowered that the IAF and IN didn't want to except it! So, why tied up further resources. Especially, when it will be produce just a handful of aircraft.

    I have no doubt India could find a whole list of higher priorities....just saying.
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  2. #122
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    The case against Tejas Mk. 1 is a reasonable one. The world has moved on from MiG-21 class aircraft, India has moved on, Mk. 2 will be fielded shortly, and the IAF has enough of a logistical problems already without inducting yet another platform in low numbers!

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scooter View Post
    I don't think we are talking about an F-15A vs F-15C. The LCA MK I is underpowered which the IAF has been very candid about. As matter of fact so underpowered that the IAF and IN didn't want to except it! So, why tied up further resources. Especially, when it will be produce just a handful of aircraft.

    I have no doubt India could find a whole list of higher priorities....just saying.
    I spoke to a senior Navy official associated with the LCA Navy program at AI-2013, and he unambiguously stated that it was the Navy that found the Tejas Mk1 underpowered for taking off using STOBAR ops off a carrier with a meaningful payload. It is not “so underpowered that the IAF and IN didn’t want to accept it” as you put it. It was the IN that requested a Mk2 variant with a higher thrust engine- the IAF just jumped onto that bandwagon.

    As for underpowered aircraft not seeing service, the IAF has been using and quite happy with the Jaguar despite its well known drawback of being a highly underpowered aircraft. The fact that it is underpowered has hampered certain mission profiles but that doesn’t stop the IAF from wanting to retain the aircraft in service till 2030 or so with upgrades.

    As to the remaining stuff you’re talking about, 40 Tejas Mk1s have already been ordered. So where’s the question of tying up any “further” resources?

    And 40 is not a handful- its 2 full squadrons. Keep in mind that the entire Mirage-2000 fleet in the IAF never even exceeded 60 even with all the attrition replacements- just 2 squadrons at full strength and a third understrength squadron. And yet it had been one of the IAF’s most valuable assets. The Tejas Mk1 already comfortably matches and in some cases even exceeds those Mirage-2000H/TH avionics and weapons capability levels.

    p.s: its “accept” not “except”.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackArcher View Post
    I spoke to a senior Navy official associated with the LCA Navy program at AI-2013, and he unambiguously stated that it was the Navy that found the Tejas Mk1 underpowered for taking off using STOBAR ops off a carrier with a meaningful payload. It is not “so underpowered that the IAF and IN didn’t want to accept it” as you put it. It was the IN that requested a Mk2 variant with a higher thrust engine- the IAF just jumped onto that bandwagon.

    As for underpowered aircraft not seeing service, the IAF has been using and quite happy with the Jaguar despite its well known drawback of being a highly underpowered aircraft. The fact that it is underpowered has hampered certain mission profiles but that doesn’t stop the IAF from wanting to retain the aircraft in service till 2030 or so with upgrades.

    As to the remaining stuff you’re talking about, 40 Tejas Mk1s have already been ordered. So where’s the question of tying up any “further” resources?

    And 40 is not a handful- its 2 full squadrons. Keep in mind that the entire Mirage-2000 fleet in the IAF never even exceeded 60 even with all the attrition replacements- just 2 squadrons at full strength and a third understrength squadron. And yet it had been one of the IAF’s most valuable assets. The Tejas Mk1 already comfortably matches and in some cases even exceeds those Mirage-2000H/TH avionics and weapons capability levels.

    p.s: its “accept” not “except”.
    Sorry, for the "except" when it should have been "accept". Sorry, it 03:43AM here. Regardless, your beating a dead horse. As the point is the IAF and the IN have "accepted" that the LCA MK2 is going to be the definitive model. So, personally I see little point in pressing ahead with 40 MK1's. Regardless, if the LCA MK1 is acceptable to some!
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  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scooter View Post
    Sorry, for the "except" when it should have been "accept". Sorry, it 03:43AM here. Regardless, your beating a dead horse. As the point is the IAF and the IN have "accepted" that the LCA MK2 is going to be the definitive model. So, personally I see little point in pressing ahead with 40 MK1's. Regardless, if the LCA MK1 is acceptable to some!
    A bit harsh to me. The Mk1 may fall short in some ways but that does not mean it is useless - just not as useful as it was supposed to be. IIRC evolving requirements added more and more weight to a design that did not start out being underpowered.

    As things stand, those Tejas Mk1s will be far superior to the MiG-21 and the MiG-21 Bisons that are still flying in the IAF. Which is why it makes a lot of sense to get them into service, get air and ground crews familiar with the Tejas and start developing doctrines/tactics for utilizing it. Then, when the Mk2 arrives later in the decade, it won't be a totally new airplane for the IAF.
    I agree with Blackarcher's comment above.

    Futhermore 2 squadrons of Mk1 Tejas will cost peanuts compared with 2 squadrons of Rafale or Sukhoi aircraft so it's a cheap way to boost squadron strength.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spitfire9 View Post
    A bit harsh to me. The Mk1 may fall short in some ways but that does not mean it is useless - just not as useful as it was supposed to be. IIRC evolving requirements added more and more weight to a design that did not start out being underpowered.



    I agree with Blackarcher's comment above.

    Futhermore 2 squadrons of Mk1 Tejas will cost peanuts compared with 2 squadrons of Rafale or Sukhoi aircraft so it's a cheap way to boost squadron strength.

    Didn't say the LCA MK1 was useless. Just the focus is on the MK2 and the resources planned for the former could be better used. Simple and to the point....
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  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scooter View Post
    Didn't say the LCA MK1 was useless. Just the focus is on the MK2 and the resources planned for the former could be better used. Simple and to the point....
    Sorry, I wasn't intimating that you said the Mk1 was useless.

    I agree, focus on Mk2 development but manufacture 40 Mk1 and put them into service ASAP. Where systems are common with Mk2, those systems can be tried and tested and if problems come to light they can be fixed before going into Mk2 aircraft.

    If the limited AoA can be mitigated/fixed by altering the flight control software that would not be a reason to delay production since the flight envelope could be extended later.

  8. #128
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    If the limited AoA can be mitigated/fixed by altering the flight control software that would not be a reason to delay production since the flight envelope could be extended later.
    One simple way to mitigate high AOA issue would be to use them primarily as Light strike aircraft, and use the mk2's more for A2A..
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  9. #129
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    My Latest Photo:

    Commodore Jaideep Maolankar taking Tejas KH2014 out for a 30 minute evening test flight & systems-check ► http://www.airliners.net/photo/2238400/L/

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scooter View Post
    Didn't say the LCA MK1 was useless. Just the focus is on the MK2 and the resources planned for the former could be better used. Simple and to the point....
    The resources that you claim could be better used have been allocated already.

    And, those resources couldn't have been used for anything else but purchasing Tejas Mk1 or Su-30MKIs since the Rafale deal hasn't even been signed as yet. And the Su-30MKI costs a lot more upfront as well as over its life cycle as opposed to a small light fighter. I cannot figure out what you're even talking about, since these contracts were signed a while ago.

    These contracts serve a larger purpose, that of familiarising the IAF with the Tejas, with further improvements coming with the Mk2, but that is something you're unable to comprehend, it seems.

  11. #131
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    How long will it be before Mk2 is combat ready??
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

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    2016 -18. Which is not a big deal because that's by when the IAF will learn what the LCA is capable of via the MK1 deliveries, which too will be delivered over the next few years.

    This business of drop the MK1 and focus on the MK2 is funny, because thats the exact opposite of what India should be doing. With the MK1, India will gain invaluable experience in operationalizing and utilizing its own fighter aircraft, with no foreign OEM with 70 odd years of experience doing the heavy lifting in terms of dealing with the zillion things that are required. This sort of learning is amplified when its a modern 4G+ fighter and all the small lessons will directly flow into making the MK2 a better platform.

    Plus, the 40 MK1s come at a time when the IAF will be retiring 125+ MiG-21s and 80 MiG-27s, even as its current squadron numbers are around 100 odd aircraft less than sanctioned (39.5). Just 100 more Su-30 MKIs and 126 Rafales wont cut it, and the IAF needs as many platforms as it can induct.

    The LCA MK1s will be better than both the MiG-21 Bisons and MiG-27s as well.

  13. #133
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    Like i said, if its AOA and general high end A2A performance that is not up to MK2 standard, they could always in the future use these 40 fighters for light attack role, in which none of the pure a2a capability is not required. Can the new engine be fitted on Mk1's at a later date?
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  14. #134
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    Tejas LSP-8 flies

    So the final Limited Series Production Tejas has flown. LSP-8 has been built to the final production standard and it went supersonic in its first flight and attained an AoA of 20 degrees. The current max is 24 deg AoA as confirmed to me by a senior NFTC Test Pilot, and it will be expanded to add about a couple degrees more.

    link
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    Last edited by BlackArcher; 1st April 2013 at 06:43.

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    Tejas during exercise Iron Fist.
    Last edited by Twinblade; 22nd April 2013 at 05:53. Reason: Derp.

  16. #136
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    Twinblade, small correction- its Exercise Iron Fist, not LiveFist.

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackArcher View Post
    Twinblade, small correction- its Exercise Iron Fist, not LiveFist.

    Thanks for correction. I was half asleep when I posted that

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    I think the AoA prob is more serious than just being the result of some software limitations. The geo of the wing seems to hve been designed for giving speed despite the lower T/W ratio. I see this as a more serious limitation for the design until, either, the max Mach requirement is eased a bit or the engine is "tuned up" to give the expected perf (EPE?).

    Lengthening the fuselage might hve also be a meaning to lower the drag in the hypothesis that weight increase was balanced by lighter material.

    Anyhow the LEVCON (a logical choice given the geo of the wing) if efficiently implemented will help greatly to deal with this.

    Looking at this bird, One can just wonder what cld hve been a 2KNG if it had not been trashed so early
    Last edited by TomcatViP; 22nd April 2013 at 11:52.

  19. #139
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    http://newindianexpress.com/nation/L...cle1555781.ece


    LCA project delay stalls Air Force’s AMCA plans

    By N C Bipindra - NEW DELHI

    22nd April 2013 09:26 AM

    Troubles in India’s ambitious Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) project has created problems for IAF’s plans for an Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

    The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has “put on hold” the AMCA project that is being spearheaded by Defence Research and Development Organisation’s (DRDO) Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA).

    The reason for the sudden decision to send the AMCA project, which began in 2006 as the Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) , to cold storage is to help ADA to focus all its energy on completing the much-delayed LCA project.

    “The AMCA has been put on hold for the moment. This decision was taken recently to let the ADA focus on the LCA project,” top Defence Ministry sources said.

    The AMCA project, for which the IAF provided the final Air Staff Qualitative Requirements (ASQR) in April 2010, may be taken up at a later date, the sources said.

    India will buy Rafale planes from the French Dassault Aviation as part of its 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender in which there is a provision to buy another 63 as a follow-on order.

    That apart, India is working on the Fifth General Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) in collaboration with Russia. With the final agreement on the design and development of the FGFA three months away, India will get at least 140 FGFAs for induction by 2027.

    Considering that most of the capabilities of AMCA will be covered by the MMRCA and FGFA planes, the revival of the AMCA will be a well thought-out one, sources said.

    AMCA’s envisaged features include stealth, multi-role operations, adequate precision strike capabilities, including critical first-day missions such as Suppression of Enemy Air Defence (SEAD) and Destruction of Enemy Air Defence (DEAD).

    The much-touted Tejas has taken 30 years already, at an escalated project cost of `5,489 crore. Since the LCA project was sanctioned in 1983 at a cost of `560 crore, the time overrun has resulted in a 10-fold increase in the cost. The plane is yet to get even its Initial Operational Clearance (IOC).

    But sources pointed out that the LCA still lacks certain critical capabilities, including a reliable radar, and is deficient in at least 100 technical parameters. “The plane cannot fly on its own. It needs a lifeline in the form of support and monitoring of its systems from the ground by technicians,” they said.

    The LCA, in fact, gave creditable flying displays during the AeroIndia show in Yelahanka in Bangalore in February this year and followed it up with weapons firing to hit both ground and aerial targets during the ‘Iron Fist’ fire power display by the IAF in Pokhran in February this year.

    “Now, Flying and usage of weapons are done with ground monitoring and support. The plane is still not ready to flying on its own,” the sources stressed. Their guess is that the LCA may not meet its schedule of obtaining the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) before July this year and will be ready in December this year or early next year

  20. #140
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    It is probably a good idea for AMCA to be put on hold. Much has changed since it was first conceived, and some things haven't changed as anticipated, such as India's reliance on foreign engine technology.

    India needs to put together a complete, coherent picture of what its requirements are and how it plans to achieve them. Personally I think India should consider partnering with either France (preferably) or Russia for a next-generation carrier-capable medium aircraft and focus domestic efforts on LCA, UAVs, ISR, etc. India should look at acquiring RD33engine technology in its entirety to replace F404/F414 for LCA, increase autonomy of existing Fulcrum assets, and to power future UAVs.
    Last edited by Rii; 23rd April 2013 at 09:25.

  21. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by toan View Post
    http://newindianexpress.com/nation/L...cle1555781.ece


    LCA project delay stalls Air Force’s AMCA plans
    The amount of credibility in this article is too damn high . The full scale engineering design phase will begin somewhere middle of next year, so yeah AMCA is 'on hold' till then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rii View Post
    It is probably a good idea for AMCA to be put on hold. Much has changed since it was first conceived, and some things haven't changed as anticipated, such as India's reliance on foreign engine technology.

    India needs to put together a complete, coherent picture of what its requirements are and how it plans to achieve them. Personally I think India should consider partnering with either France (preferably) or Russia for a next-generation carrier-capable medium aircraft and focus domestic efforts on LCA, UAVs, ISR, etc. India should look at acquiring RD33 engine line in its entirety to replace F404/F414 for LCA, increase autonomy of existing Fulcrum assets, and to power future UAVs.
    http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/drdojsp/down...advdesidoc.pdf
    Last edited by Twinblade; 23rd April 2013 at 10:32.

  22. #142
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    Hi-res pics from recent trials at Jamnagar.











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    LCA Tejas closes in on the IAF
    Monday, Aug 19, 2013, 10:14 IST | Place: Bangalore | Agency: DNA
    DNA Correspondent


    The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, during its new outstation trails, operated successfully by carrying and releasing ‘long range beyond visual range weapons’.

    Images released by the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) for the design and development of the LCA programme showed the Tejas carrying the weaponry.

    “Tejas carries long range beyond visual range weapons, with highly agile high off-bore-sight missiles to tackle any close
    http://www.dnaindia.com/bangalore/18...-in-on-the-iaf

    I didn't see Derby being carried or being fired in ADA's gallery.

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    they may well be referring to the R-73E itself. Its engagement range can be considered BVR depending on visual conditions.

    The video showed the Tejas firing a missile but I wasn't able to identify whether it was the R-73E or the R-77..my guess is it was the R-73E..firing an active-guided BVR missile would surely get a press release from ADA.

  26. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackArcher View Post
    they may well be referring to the R-73E itself. Its engagement range can be considered BVR depending on visual conditions.

    The video showed the Tejas firing a missile but I wasn't able to identify whether it was the R-73E or the R-77..my guess is it was the R-73E..firing an active-guided BVR missile would surely get a press release from ADA.
    Yeah, since no other media outlet covered it I think it might have been a slip up by DNA. Those guys didn't even put up the correct picture despite acknowledging that they went through the gallery.

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    On the LCA project

    The LCA is going well. We said the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) 2 will be completed by this year end. IOC 2 is progressing very well and in spite of bad weather a number of sorties have taken place. HAL team is working well along with the Air Force and a very well integrated operation is going on. We are very confident that IOC 2 will be completed on time. The Final Operational Clearance is slated for 2014-end. Meanwhile, production will start from this year onwards and we expect that the first aircraft will roll out in 2014. Right now, we have orders from the Indian Air Force for 40, in 20-plus-20 option. The naval version of LCA is also going on well, Prototype Version (PV) 1 and PV2 are getting integrated, and PV1 should be completed by this year end.
    http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/inte...cle5045673.ece

    Wasn't the naval program supposed to have five NP aircraft before undertaking production variants ?
    Last edited by Twinblade; 22nd August 2013 at 09:34.

  28. #148
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    So, the Naval Version of the LCA MK2 is under construction???
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scooter View Post
    So, the Naval Version of the LCA MK2 is under construction???
    Doesn't sound like that. There were plans to build five naval prototypes NP-1 and NP-2 based on GE-F404, followed limited series production.
    NP-1 (two seater) - based on GE-f404
    NP(?)-2 (single seater) - based on GE-f404
    NP(?)-3 (double seater) - based on GE-f414
    NP(?)-4 (single seater) - based on GE-f414
    NP(?)-5 (double seater) - based on GE-f404
    Followed by 8 LSP aircraft.
    It might be possible that what were supposed to be NP-2 and NP-5 might become PV-1 and PV-2.

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    How advanced are the composite technology in this aircraft considering that wikipedia contributors wrote a lot about the composite wings, tail fins etc. It looks to me that the MK1 and the MK2 will overlap each other.
    They will build the MK1 and keep improving it with new solutions which will eventually go into the MK2. If they are building the MK2 it makes a lot of sense to prove out solutions on the MK1 which get produced in low numbers before going all in for the MK2.

    I am always curious as to how much of the most recent advances in computing make it to these long running projects. What about new age Processors/DSPs/Design and Simulation Software etc.

    In our organization we made lots of advances in Model Simulations for Control Algorithms, speed of designing, simulation and Hardware in Loop tests etc. compared to the time when I was a rookie. Designing mechanical parts is also very fast with the CAD models directly fed to an enterprise model of the whole project and these models can be fed to variety of machine shop where a prototype engine for example can be made quickly. Of course the plants are equally fast in realigning machinery and engine shops to complete designs. Leaving aside the material technology which I was no specialist. And the processing power we have is staggering compared to what we had 5 years ago. From measly C166 derivatives to multiple ARMv7 ISA Application cores with powerful DSP coprocessors.

    I am not sure the Aircraft Industry move this fast, but I am very curious.
    Last edited by WinterStars; 13th September 2013 at 21:48. Reason: Removed personal references

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