F35 debate thread- enter at your own risk.

[mrmalaya]

A thread for all the discussion to go one.....

I think the F35 is fantastic and the F35B is the crowning glory of the programme.

Discuss...

[SlowMan]

http://nbiz.heraldcorp.com/view.php?ud=20121114000366

Lockheed Martin executives strongly urged the Korean government to delay the fighter jet selection by several years, saying that the F-35 gets cheaper in each passing year during a press conference held on November 13th.

This comes as an indirect confirmation from Lockheed that they are indeed running at the last place in the race as leaked by press earlier(The Silent Eagle and the Typhoon are running neck to neck), and Lockheed would rather delay the announcement of outcome than to accept the defeat which would have a decisively negative consequence for the F-35 as the JSF partners are rethinking their F-35 purchases and contemplating a bailout.

[Fedaykin]

If Typhoon and Silent Eagle are running neck to neck then the Boeing will I think. Why induct another type when they can adopt the F-15.

[obligatory]

Plus the fact that i really would like to see the Silent Eagle.
There is one thing i've been pounding tho:
Why does LM & US government worry so much about losing an odd few dozen
fighters in deals like Norway & Korea when they claim US will buy 2500 or so ?
Another 200 built or not will hardly make any difference at all on average price.

[SlowMan]

If Typhoon and Silent Eagle are running neck to neck then the Boeing will I think. Why induct another type when they can adopt the F-15.

It all comes down to price. The ROKAF cannot wait for replacement jets any further and this is why they are rushing the selection at a breakneck pace.

Here is how the evaluation result looks like right now.

Performance : Silent Eagle
Offset : Typhoon. Boeing too met all of the DAPA's requirement, it is that the Typhoon offer includes a $1 billion local assembly plant paid for by Eurofighter nations so the Typhoon is ahead.
Price : Typhoon <= subject to final rounds of price bidding.
Compatibility : Silent Eagle

The F-35 is reportedly running in distant third in all four categories. So it all comes down to the final price offer, and it could go either way.

[SlowMan]

Why does LM & US government worry so much about losing an odd few dozen fighters in deals like Norway & Korea when they claim US will buy 2500 or so ?

Because it would trigger other JSF partner nations to bail out and take a look at Boeing's RCS reduced offerings, and the US DoD is counting on exports to sustain the number of the overall F-35 production number.

[SlowMan]

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2...xt|FRONTPAGE|p

Danish Military To Meet Lockheed, Boeing Over Fighter Replacement
Nov. 12, 2012 - 10:36AM

Danish military officials will be visiting Washington this week in a major step toward restarting competition for their fighter replacement program. The delegation will meet with representatives from Lockheed Martin’s F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) program and Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet.

Although Denmark is a partner in the JSF program, officials insist all options are on the table.

“No decision has been made,” said Lt. Col. Per Lyse Rasmussen, assistant defense attaché at the Danish Embassy. “We want an open and fair competition.”

The result of Korean contest will sway Denmark and others to go open bidding, especially when they compare the terms of F-35's bid relative to much more generous terms from Boeing and EADS. The expected participants in Danish contest are the F-35, a Super Hornet variant, Typhoon, and Gripen E/F.

[Spitfire9]

http://nbiz.heraldcorp.com/view.php?ud=20121114000366

Lockheed Martin executives strongly urged the Korean government to delay the fighter jet selection by several years, saying that the F-35 gets cheaper in each passing year during a press conference held on November 13th.

This comes as an indirect confirmation from Lockheed that they are indeed running at the last place in the race as leaked by press earlier(The Silent Eagle and the Typhoon are running neck to neck), and Lockheed would rather delay the announcement of outcome than to accept the defeat which would have a decisively negative consequence for the F-35 as the JSF partners are rethinking their F-35 purchases and contemplating a bailout.

The numbers will dictate, I think. If LM is suggesting that South Korea should delay ordering because the F-35 would be very expensive if ordered for delivery soon, I hope they have the good manners to suggest to F-35 partners that they should do the same.

I believe (and it has been my position for a number of years) that this aircraft will be a body blow to the overall defence capability of non-US customers.

Edit: with the exception of Norway which has very, very deep pockets

[SlowMan]

If Typhoon and Silent Eagle are running neck to neck then the Boeing will I think. Why induct another type when they can adopt the F-15.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us

Col. Raymond O’Mara was the commander of the 1st Fighter Wing when F-22s first began operating in the Air Force. He said the service’s biggest limitation in its fifth generation fleet is that there aren’t enough of them.

“Because we cut down the buy on the F-22 so far, and all others are aging out, we built a situation where we are starting to run out of airplanes,” said O’Mara, who now is the chairman of the Air War College Strategy Department at Air University at Maxwell Air Force Base, Ala.

The Navy is buying more planes than the Air Force because of the way the Navy planned its progression with the fourth generation F/A-18E/F Super Hornet. The Air Force could address its gap by purchasing new F-16 Block 60s or a new F-15 such as the F-15K variant built for South Korea, O’Mara said

“If the Air Force wants to stay in the air power business with fighters, this is something that has to be seriously considered,” he said.

Well, you have a former USAF F-22 wing commander recommending F-15K or later(ie Silent Eagle) as a substitute when the F-22 isn't available.

[SpudmanWP]

Because it would trigger other JSF partner nations to bail out and laugh at Boeing's RCS reduced offerings, and the US DoD is counting on exports to sustain the number of the overall F-35 production number.

Fixed it for ya

[Rii]

If Typhoon and Silent Eagle are running neck to neck then the Boeing will I think. Why induct another type when they can adopt the F-15.

The contract will also determine Korea's de facto partner for KF-X. Industrial factors will make the difference (which is why F-35 is struggling) and EJ200 is a good fit for the project.

Of course similar factors were at play in Japan...

The result of Korean contest will sway Denmark and others to go open bidding, especially when they compare the terms of F-35's bid relative to much more generous terms from Boeing and EADS. The expected participants in Danish contest are the F-35, a Super Hornet variant, Typhoon, and Gripen E/F.

Not sure why Super Hornet is bothering to show up. Denmark (and everyone else) needs an affordable multirole fighter, not a large striker/support aircraft.

I think the F35 is fantastic and the F35B is the crowning glory of the programme.

China's sentiments exactly.

[SlowMan]

The contract will also determine Korea's de facto partner for KF-X. Industrial factors will make the difference (which is why F-35 is struggling) and EJ200 is a good fit for the project.

Actually EJ200 is not, the KFX requires more than 50,000 lbs thrust, and the offered EJ2X0, EJ230 is below what the ROKAF wants.

Of course similar factors were at play in Japan...

The differences being

1. Korea is more or less self-reliant on defense. Japan as a "pacifist" county has renounced offensive capability and has outsourced offense to the US. This is why Japan was susceptible to the US diplomatic pressure, while the Korean bid evaluators are immune to the US pressure because they have no direct contact with the US DoD and State Department.

2. The Korean government is more transparent than the Japanese government due to Korea having a real democracy 10 years longer than Japan did. This is why deals are closed on budget in Korea, while it is possible for deals to be closed at 250% of budget like the F-35(The budget was $4 billion, but the agreed value is $10 billion) in Japan due to less than transparent backdoor dealings.

This is why the F-35, the product of heavy US lobbying and pressures according to Wikileaks, is running dead last in the Korea contest and Lockheed is calling for the contest to be delayed by several years, because the evaluators evaluated bids strictly by the rule book.

Not sure why Super Hornet is bothering to show up. Denmark (and everyone else) needs an affordable multirole fighter, not a large striker/support aircraft.

The Super Hornet E/F is cheaper than the Gripen E/F.

[obligatory]

Taking operational cost over life into account, F-18 end up more than twice as expensive as Gripen

[Confucius says]

My Korean friends have been telling me for some time now that their country is b.r.o.k.e, so delaying KFX wouldn't be such a bad option for the government.

[jbritchford]

Given that the ROKAF are only facing a handful of poorly maintained aircraft with an already significant technological disadvantage flown by poorly trained pilots, I don't think that any advanced stealth types are really necessary. They need large numbers of ground attack aircraft with a few multi-role aircraft to win the skies. More KF-16s would do the job nicely.

[hopsalot]

Everything is not about air to air.

[mrmalaya]

Now here is a meaty question. What has happened to this F35 a pictured herein?



Suddenly I'm seeing lots of scruffy F35 images! What is the world coming to?

The Chinese seem to have got the hang of how to paint their new fighters black to make them properly stealthy, so why the masking tape look from LM?

[SlowMan]

Given that the ROKAF are only facing a handful of poorly maintained aircraft with an already significant technological disadvantage flown by poorly trained pilots, I don't think that any advanced stealth types are really necessary.

They are meant for China, not North Korea.

Crushing North Korea is easy; it's the Chinese intervention that could throw a wrench in the war scenario and they are preparing for the war with China.

After all, North Korea seized to exist as a functional military in just 5 months and it was the PLA that the Korean military battled for 2 years.

They need large numbers of ground attack aircraft with a few multi-role aircraft to win the skies. More KF-16s would do the job nicely.

CAS will be taken over by drones and F/A-50.

[obligatory]

N.K vs S.K, and i think Cavazos underestimated the horror
http://us4.campaign-archive1.com/?u=...b&e=9d45c18d86

[SpudmanWP]

Now here is a meaty question. What has happened to this F35 a pictured herein?

Suddenly I'm seeing lots of scruffy F35 images! What is the world coming to?

The Chinese seem to have got the hang of how to paint their new fighters black to make them properly stealthy, so why the masking tape look from LM?

It's about the RAM or the lack thereof.

Take a look at this lineup of SDD F-35As. You will notice that the first two (AF-1 & 2) are all smooth and grey. That is due to not having any final RAM coatings (or not caring about it). All the follow on F-35s have special RAM treatments around the edges of the access panels and doors. Most of these can be opened & closed without any changes or fixes to the RAM.

In other words, if it's all smooth and pretty it likely has no RAM applied.

[mrmalaya]

excellent, thanks for the explanation!

Is this unique to the F35 (ie part of the newer set of RAM treatments that don't need so much care and attention)?

[SpudmanWP]

Yes, this is one of the cost-savings drivers that is part of the F-35 program. The RAM is not a simple "paint" or "putty", but is "baked" into the skin of the F-35.

I have heard the words "polymer" RAM when referencing the light gray edging but any more would be an OPSEC no-no.

Some F-35 RAM tech is already making it's way into the F-22.

http://www.dailytech.com/F35+Stealth...ticle21321.htm

[Sens]

Yes, this is one of the cost-savings drivers that is part of the F-35 program. The RAM is not a simple "paint" or "putty", but is "baked" into the skin of the F-35.

I have heard the words "polymer" RAM when referencing the light gray edging but any more would be an OPSEC no-no.

Some F-35 RAM tech is already making it's way into the F-22.

http://www.dailytech.com/F35+Stealth...ticle21321.htm

Or in any other US-fighter if it gives a better RCS.

[Sens]

It is of special note that the SSD examples of the F-35A on the ramp differ by that from the last built LRIP examples as well.

[SpudmanWP]

Concurrency changes.

SDD = Block 0.5
Latest LRIP = Block 2

[Sens]

Concurrency changes.

SDD = Block 0.5
Latest LRIP = Block 2

Which comes along with internal changes shown by some different "hatches" .

[SpudmanWP]

Where do you see a different "hatch"?

[obligatory]

Lockheed had to make some changes to the coatings to be used on the F-22 that the F-35 didn’t require. Goure said, "It's [the F-22] operating at a higher altitude typically and [at] faster speeds, and that would put different stresses on the material."

http://www.dailytech.com/F35+Stealth...ticle21321.htm
It looks like the coating on F-35 are sensitive to heat

[djcross]

After looking at the jets up close, the fit and finish on the early build F-35s is far superior to the fit and finish on early build F-22s.

[djcross]

It looks like the coating on F-35 are sensitive to heat

Just the opposite. F-35 materials are more resistant to environments than F-22 materials.