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Thread: Which attack helicopter for Iraq?

  1. #1
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    Which attack helicopter for Iraq?

    Now the Mi-28 is not being purchased by Iraq what alternative makes sense.

    Really there are four choices with two being the most certain:

    AugustaWestland A129 Mangusta
    Denel Rooivalk
    Boeing AH-64D Longbow Apache
    Bell AH-1Z Viper

    Looking at the list in my opinion the Mangusta is counted out due to it being sold to Turkey. The Denel Rooivalk would be counted out as it is just not successful.

    That leaves Apache and Viper. Certainly Apache would be a good choice but I wonder of the Viper not be a better cheaper fit. Nevertheless the have the advantage of being available as an FMS contract.

    Any other ideas?
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    Why's an FMS contract an advantage for Iraq?

    I agree the Rooivalk is out, for the reason you give. Iraq doesn't boycott weapons because they've been sold to Turkey, though. It's bought F-16.
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    I think attack helos are a horrible mis-spending and are only justifiable
    for certain SOF operations, where some additional firepower may be warranted.
    so i vote for Mi-24 or Mi-17

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    FMS has the advantage of being an all in package but I do agree that it has disadvantages as well. Nevertheless an AH-64D Apache or AH-1Z Viper sale would more then likely be FMS so it is a mute point.

    Thing is the latest variant of the Mangusta is the joint developed ATAK variant with Turkey so any version offered would have to be new but yes I do concede that isn't a total barrier to a sale.

    Rooivalk has to work hard to maintain its lack of sales!

    Indeed Iraq could get more Mi-17 and Mi-24 but it appears to be a political issue in Iraq about getting a new generation attack helicopter.
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    How about the Eurocopter Tiger or the Wz-10?

    Personally, i would rather see them going for the Ka-52 (since its the best looking one around).

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    It looks like Iraq is getting the Mi-28 after all.
    http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20121110/177358871.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by obligatory View Post
    I think attack helos are a horrible mis-spending and are only justifiable
    for certain SOF operations, where some additional firepower may be warranted.
    so i vote for Mi-24 or Mi-17
    Agree! Only that I'd suggest the Battle Hawk version of the Sikorsky S-70.
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    Quote Originally Posted by killerbean View Post
    How about the Eurocopter Tiger or the Wz-10?

    Personally, i would rather see them going for the Ka-52 (since its the best looking one around).
    Oh I forgot the Tiger! Yep add that to the list!

    WZ-10 ... not a chance. Iraq has no defence relations with China as it stands and the WZ-10 isn't even in full service with the China Army yet. The WZ-10 production will probably be busy for a long time meeting domestic needs.
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  9. #9
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    Your jumping ahead. It is not cancelled. infact Iraq has increased Oil related deals with Russia. There will be pressures from various parts in Iraqi government but things will move on with time as it is in there own interest.
    but important point is both Cameron and Hollande visited arabs and couldnot managed to sign deals there. Saudi are ordering C-130.
    It means A400m is practically doomed without big deal from Middleast.
    Last edited by JSR; 10th November 2012 at 18:21.

  10. #10
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    Your jumping ahead. It is not cancelled. infact Iraq has increased Oil related deals with Russia. There will be pressures from various parts in Iraqi government but things will move on with time as it is in there own interest.
    News media says otherwise JSR.
    http://edition.cnn.com/2012/11/10/wo...sia-arms-deal/
    But that's is OK I am sure we will get further clarification...interestingly the Russian news site Ria Novosti says it hasn;t been cancelled based on the words of the deputy defence minister:

    http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20121110/177358871.html

    So it is the word of the Iraq Prime minister vs the word of the deputy defence minister. Should be interesting to see who wins out. Then again the earlier article from the same website says it is cancelled:

    http://en.rian.ru/world/20121110/177354047.html

    but important point is both Cameron and Hollande visited arabs and couldnot managed to sign deals there. Saudi are ordering C-130.
    Nothing to do with this thread...same old tricks is JSR.

    It means A400m is practically doomed without big deal from Middleast.
    Again nothing to do with this thread and do I detect a hint of desperate but childish face saving...nothing new then.
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  11. #11
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    Perhaps that russian journalist was right when he said something like "4.2bn contract sounds nice, but i don't think the americans will allow the Iraqi government to actually proceed with it". It's they who installed this Iraqi government after the occupation, leverage, dictating, imposing, you name it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedaykin View Post
    News media says otherwise JSR.
    http://edition.cnn.com/2012/11/10/wo...sia-arms-deal/
    But that's is OK I am sure we will get further clarification...interestingly the Russian news site Ria Novosti says it hasn;t been cancelled based on the words of the deputy defence minister:

    http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20121110/177358871.html

    So it is the word of the Iraq Prime minister vs the word of the deputy defence minister. Should be interesting to see who wins out. Then again the earlier article from the same website says it is cancelled:

    http://en.rian.ru/world/20121110/177354047.html



    Nothing to do with this thread...same old tricks is JSR.



    Again nothing to do with this thread and do I detect a hint of desperate but childish face saving...nothing new then.
    It has every thing to do with this thread. when two head of governments cannot convince there oldest and richest friends to buy some thing how on earth any Euro based manufacturer has any chance in Iraq.

    You can search all day all the links. it wont matter bit. as the only way this deals will not implemented if Russia chose side with Kurds for there role against Turkey. otherwise it will go ahead.

    http://www.bondladyscorner.com/t5556...russians#83959
    State law: Barzani wants to sabotage Maliki agreements with the Russians

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    Oh my word that is funny!

    No JSR it has no relevance and your attempts to connect it are amusingly childish.

    As for accusing me for hunting links to prove a point...that almost takes the biscuit. Have you heard of "Pot calling the kettle black"? When you do exactly the same thing in the same post but as usual to a barely related issue its almost funny. I was fair pointing out that Russian media dispute the report but I would also say internal Iraqi politics are playing a part and it depends on who has the greater clout within their government.

    I don't care either way if Russia has lost or keeps the contract but your childish reaction is so predictable its almost boring... I could spend some time typing all out the different defence contracts European manufacturers have won in the middle east over the last year but I know you will ignore that and say "up is down" and "black is white" if it fits your world view. A waste of my time trying to reason with a child with a chip on his shoulder.

    This is a thread purely over what the alternatives are, do you have any suggestions JSR or is this going to be a tit for tat exercise where you slate everything that hasn't got a made in Russia symbol on it. You know you could try and participate, what is your opinion on the AH-64D vs AH-1Z? Or do you have a view on the Rooivalk...you know the actual subject matter of this thread!
    Last edited by Fedaykin; 10th November 2012 at 19:33.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Broccoli View Post
    It looks like Iraq is getting the Mi-28 after all.
    http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20121110/177358871.html
    Maybe, I detect the smell of internal Iraqi government turf wars here!

    Certainly there has probably been some frantic calls from Russia to Iraq today!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedaykin View Post
    Maybe, I detect the smell of internal Iraqi government turf wars here!

    Certainly there has probably been some frantic calls from Russia to Iraq today!
    Where is evidence of frantic phone calls?
    infact only economic desperate countries leaders visit desert lands.

    Infact the industry is under performing in timely domestic deliveries. Just Ruaf needs are in order of 1200 helicopters.

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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedaykin View Post

    This is a thread purely over what the alternatives are, do you have any suggestions JSR or is this going to be a tit for tat exercise where you slate everything that hasn't got a made in Russia symbol on it. You know you could try and participate, what is your opinion on the AH-64D vs AH-1Z? Or do you have a view on the Rooivalk...you know the actual subject matter of this thread!
    AH-64 and AH-1Z are well good choppers and i am sure they can perform well. but there will be restrictions on there use and with on going civil war inside Iraq. they will ultimately look for alternatives.
    Rooivalk has Euro parts (engines turbomeca) so it is non starter.

  17. #17
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    AH-64 and AH-1Z are well good choppers and i am sure they can perform well. but there will be restrictions on there use
    What restrictions beyond American ITAR rules? Iraq is buying vast amounts of American defence articles already hardly appears to be an issue for them.

    Rooivalk has Euro parts (engines turbomeca) so it is non starter.
    Why would Euro engine parts be a problem? there is no European defence sales embargo against Iraq. Iraq is already inducting European helicopters (small correction it has Canadian engines - then again Iraq does operate the Gazelle which does have a European engine). Do I have to post this picture yet again:

    Last edited by Fedaykin; 10th November 2012 at 20:11.
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    Where is evidence of frantic phone calls?
    You did notice the word "Probably" in my statement...I was speculating JSR.

    infact only economic desperate countries leaders visit desert lands.
    Again childish, play nice.

    Infact the industry is under performing in timely domestic deliveries. Just Ruaf needs are in order of 1200 helicopters.

    New Klimov engine plant with 600 engine output in 2013.
    Not relevant.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedaykin View Post
    What restrictions beyond American ITAR rules? Iraq is buying vast amounts of American defence articles already hardly appears to be an issue for them.
    They havent been delivered and used yet. i want to see how they overrun Kurdish autonomy area with US weopons.


    Why would Euro engine parts be a problem? there is no European defence sales embargo against Iraq. Iraq is already inducting European helicopters (small correction it has Canadian engines - then again Iraq does operate the Gazelle which does have a European engine). Do I have to post this picture yet again:
    These were ordered when US was in incharge. not now. remember we already went through this one already. not even the desperate French can sell Rafale there.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedaykin View Post
    You did notice the word "Probably" in my statement...I was speculating JSR.
    so it was baseless speculation.



    Not relevant.
    It is relevant. high engine output ensures quick delivery in months. not spread over years. infact high production rate is the key advantage of securing deal. which Tiger, Mangusta and Rooviak cannot boost.

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    so it was baseless speculation.
    Yes! You do understand how forums work JSR? People speculate and then we discuss.

    It is relevant. high engine output ensures quick delivery in months. not spread over years. infact high production rate is the key advantage of securing deal. which Tiger, Mangusta and Rooviak cannot boost.
    No it is not relevant JSR, European and Western manufacturers in general can ramp up engine production quickly if required. What are you basing your idea that somehow Russian manufacturers are much faster in this? Again this is a thread about the alternatives to the Mi-28N, Russian production capabilities have no relevance.
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    Defense Minister said deal is still happening.

    Hopefully external influences will not cancel this deal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedaykin View Post
    Yes! You do understand how forums work JSR? People speculate and then we discuss.
    every one speculate. but there is solid reason for speculation. see the number of French ministers visits to UAE in past 5 years to clinch Rafale deal. There is no such basis for speculation in this case based on past history.


    No it is not relevant JSR, European and Western manufacturers in general can ramp up engine production quickly if required. What are you basing your idea that somehow Russian manufacturers are much faster in this? Again this is a thread about the alternatives to the Mi-28N, Russian production capabilities have no relevance.
    No they cannot ramp especially military engines. even LM takes 4 years to deliver new F-16. your confusing Civilian engines with Military. There is hardly any alternative.

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    They havent been delivered and used yet. i want to see how they overrun Kurdish autonomy area with US weopons.
    Incoherent and not relevant to the thread.

    These were ordered when US was in incharge. not now. remember we already went through this one already. not even the desperate French can sell Rafale there.
    Patronising, incoherent and not relevant to the thread. Wasn't aware that France was heavily pushing Rafale to Iraq...so one of your made up ideas then. When America was in charge?...I think you will find that US defence sales to Iraq are still ongoing even after the pull out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedaykin View Post

    Patronising, incoherent and not relevant to the thread. Wasn't aware that France was heavily pushing Rafale to Iraq...so one of your made up ideas then. When America was in charge?...I think you will find that US defence sales to Iraq are still ongoing even after the pull out.
    There is delay in delivery. and thats all it matter is fast moving war.

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    You two need to get a room.
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    ever one speculate. but there is solid reason for speculation. see the number of French ministers visits to UAE in past 5 years to clinch Rafale deal. There is no such basis for speculation in this case based on past history.
    Attempted defence sales to UAE have no relevance in a thread about alternatives to the Mi-28N for Iraq.

    No they cannot ramp especially military engines. even LM takes 4 years to deliver new F-16. your confusing Civilian engines with Military. There is hardly any alternative.
    Oh so we have moved from talking about helicopter engines where the dividing line between civil and military engines is non existent to talking about how quickly Lockheed Martin can service an F-16 contract. Talk about moving the goal posts! Lockheed Martin can move surprisingly quickly if needed servicing an F-16 order and the engines are competatively tendered between the F100 from PW and the F110 from GE! There is slack in F100 and F110 manufacture meaning there is plenty of scope to ramp up production quickly! So what are you basing your grand statement that Russia is super fast over anybody else at this...oh hang on yet again you bring up an issue of no relevance to the thread! Just for example GE was able to service a large follow on order of GE F-110 for the Saudi airforce within a few months of contract signing. I feel like I am beating my head against a wall!

    Last edited by Fedaykin; 10th November 2012 at 20:50.
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by TR1 View Post
    You two need to get a room.
    It would probably be bloody! :diablo:

    I can't allow his stupid to pollute good threads!

    Its all right he can't deflect my happiness shield today! Purchased an awesome heavy duty hammer drill today with a massive discount. Tomorrow morning I am going shooting with my rifle club and I am spending the afternoon with my lovely girlfriend...its all good and can't be deflected! :-)
    Last edited by Fedaykin; 10th November 2012 at 20:47.
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    Quote Originally Posted by obligatory View Post
    I think attack helos are a horrible mis-spending and are only justifiable
    for certain SOF operations, where some additional firepower may be warranted.
    so i vote for Mi-24 or Mi-17
    I second this. The sound move would be to spend their money on multirole helicopters. The NH90 might be too expensive for them (and has been plagued by delays and what not) but something along the lines of the Battlehawk or the Mi-35 would do the trick. That, and/or COIN a/c with decent rough airfield and STOL capabilities (there are tons of them and they're not too pricey) would be a much better investment.

    Don't get me wrong, dedicated attack helicopters do constitute an asset to be reckoned with in many situations, but their reputation is well over-inflated. Considering the narrow niche they fill in I find it hard to justify such costly acquisitions by armed forces the size (and especially in the situation) of Iraqs. AHs should be considered a luxury for those who have everything else fully covered and still have heaps of dough over for that extra little bit of icing on the cake.

    But if they really do want them for some reason, Mi-28 is probably their best bet. To me it just sounds like Iraqi top brass having watched too many US action films though.
    Last edited by Dr.Snufflebug; 10th November 2012 at 20:52.

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    um, anyways, yeah...
    Mi-28 could go thru in the end. I'm not sure about Ka-52, I would say it should equally be in the running, but Russia doesn't seem to want to export it right now...? I would say that both of these platforms are somewhat dependent on how soon they can be brought up to spec, obviously the Mil wasn't quite there with India, but depending on exactly when Iraq needs these delivered, one or both could 'be there' by then.
    Definitely Eurocopter Tiger should also be in the running, re: Mangusta/T-129, yes the T-129 is now the only competent option with that platform, which means going thru Turkey... which is not an option now IMHO. I guess you could even throw in HAL's LCH, right? They've already exported Dhruv.
    Between the platforms mentioned, I think the 30mm gun of Tiger, Apache, Mil, and Kamov is an important advantage re: gun range vs. 20mm guns in T-129 and the AH-1Z and LCH. Tiger along with the Russians and Apache also seem to have a operational range/loiter advantage, which seems relevant to me if Iraq envisions anything more than anti-terrorist/civil war where they are largely in control (and look at Syria where their airbases are not a safe thing).
    Ultimately, the 'readiness' of both Kamov and Mil is a crucial issue. I'm not sure how Iraq views it's immediate needs anyways/ when it needs them delivered, it already has the armed Eurocopter on order, and for 'higher end' conflicts they really need a range of other gear anyways (airforce, SAMs). If 'Western' models are chosen, I think Iraq would reasonably purchase a large amount of spares up-front as 'insurance'. I do think that if they can be brought up to 'maturity', both Mil and Kamov (if offered) have a very good chance. Going with Mi-35 definitely should be considered as well... I would say that worries about Turkey and SA are what motivates interest in 'real' attack choppers.
    Last edited by Snow Monkey; 10th November 2012 at 21:27.

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