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Thread: Shenyang J-21/31/F-60/AMF thread part 1

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    Shenyang J-21/31/F-60/AMF thread part 1

    China's second stealth fighter in two years unveiled*. Pictures courtesy chinese fora via CDF and SDF

    (* i maintain a 1% dose of skepticism for the time being if this proves not to be the real deal, just in case)
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  2. #2
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    From the PLAAF thread:


    Originally Posted by SGW06
    The fighter doesnt has side weapon bay, and it is powered by WS-13 at the moment, and in the future the 9500-kgf power WS-XX.

    However, neither WS-13 nor the future WS-XX has a low by-pass ratio, therefore, the fighter's supercruise performance will be limited, if has any at all.

    As for the gap between the engines and the main airframe, well thats because they have just installed the engines at the time when the picture was taken, there should be an engine nozzle covering there to cover the gap, like these installed on any other fighters.
    Just like the fairing for RD-33 on JF-17, right ?

    How many missiles can it hold in the bay, 4 PL-10-class i suspect?

    The "bump" under the fuselage , that is indeed only the bay doors being half open , the undersurface being smooth when they are closed, right?

    Would that be the SAC factory airfield where the pics were taken?

    Is september still planned as the first flight date of this bird?

    Finally any other details about it?

    Thank you.

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    So is this the plane that was carried on an awkward angle on a trailer?

    The question now is this going to be a future replacement of J-10 (while new variants of J-10 itself is still being developed), an export only model (quite unlikely), a carrier variant or just a tech demonstrator?

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    PLEASE ... show us more !!

    Besides that is this at Shenyang or the CFTE at Xian Yanglian ?
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    ...

    He was my North, my South, my East and West,
    My working week and my Sunday rest,
    My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
    I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

    The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
    Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
    Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
    For nothing now can ever come to any good.
    -------------------------------------------------
    W.H.Auden (1945)

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    Its impressive that they are working on so many indigenous projects. Hats off to that!

    But why does it have to look so much like cross F-22/F-35.


    1. Huge Vertical stabilizers shaped just like F22 (none other)
    2. Cockpit area = F-22
    3. Nose = F-35
    4. Intakes = F-35
    5. I guarantee you that weapons bay is right there as F-22 has the big one. The tall/thick cross section of the body right behind cockpit is exactly like F-22.

    gives USAF something to laugh about. Chinese designers must be their biggest fans looking at this prototype.
    Last edited by Wanderlei; 16th September 2012 at 14:27.

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    Put it this way: this thing is to the F-22/35 what for instance F-15 is to the MiG-25

    Since the need was aparently for low RCS , in how many way can you allign the tails and wings and stabilators and in how many ways you can chine the nose? And in how many way you can zigzag the radome or the panels on the aircraft?

    While there are close similarities and i'm sure the chinese engineers studied very thoroughly the F-22/35 and others, it is NOT identical to them.

    Seems J-21/F-60 has F-22 features in a F-35 size airframe or less, but with two engines.

    Like i was saying few moths back , i believe if the SAC and China play their cards right , they can have the sale of the century for this bird. Not only they can sell a very advanced defense tool to non-aligned countries at a very affordable price for it's capabilities, but they can also penetrate markets where they couldn't before. (ME , Europe, Latin America etc.)

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    Too close

    The aircraft bears a striking resemblance to the F-22. Too much so for coincidence, IMHO.

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    In the logo it says "Gyrfalcon", at least that is what I was told.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mack8 View Post
    Put it this way: this thing is to the F-22/35 what for instance F-15 is to the MiG-25

    Since the need was aparently for low RCS , in how many way can you allign the tails and wings and stabilators and in how many ways you can chine the nose? And in how many way you can zigzag the radome or the panels on the aircraft?

    While there are close similarities and i'm sure the chinese engineers studied very thoroughly the F-22/35 and others, it is NOT identical to them.

    Seems J-21/F-60 has F-22 features in a F-35 size airframe or less, but with two engines.

    Like i was saying few moths back , i believe if the SAC and China play their cards right , they can have the sale of the century for this bird. Not only they can sell a very advanced defense tool to non-aligned countries at a very affordable price for it's capabilities, but they can also penetrate markets where they couldn't before. (ME , Europe, Latin America etc.)
    I understand all that, but it doesn't have too look that much like a copy.

    I was first to defend T-50 PAK-FA when it came out and all the haters and pro-USAF jumped on it calling it a F-22 copy, which was pathetically wrong.

    In this case, all those guys will be right because F-22 and F-35 have some very unique shapes and proportions in design that did not have to be copied to achieve the same.

    just my opinion

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    I am not sure about the authenticity of these images, but anyway:

    http://i.imgur.com/oJlqp.jpg
    http://i.imgur.com/Y7VTt.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by orko_8 View Post
    I am not sure about the authenticity of these images, but anyway:

    http://i.imgur.com/oJlqp.jpg
    http://i.imgur.com/Y7VTt.jpg
    if the second picture is true, then it gives hope to a bit differen (nicer) appearance of cockpit area than F-22.

    I guess the category would be in Mig-35 range. Probably planned for Carrier version ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by orko_8 View Post
    I am not sure about the authenticity of these images, but anyway:

    http://i.imgur.com/oJlqp.jpg
    http://i.imgur.com/Y7VTt.jpg
    It's the CG images from our old friend, check the whole set here:

    http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/htm_data/27/1209/762897.html

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    I'm not a huge fan of these "copy!"-allegations but in this case I am willing to make an exception. It looks so much like a twin engined derivative of the X/F-35 with a touch of F-22-ness it's not even funny. I guess those hackers really came in handy this time.

    The J-20, though incredibly ugly and bloated looking, was at least tad original. Sure, there were evidence of solutions applied that are present in contemporary foreign fighters (like the DSIs and the general 1-41-ish layout), but overall we saw things that might very well have been arrived at independently. And obviously it had the general "stealth fighter" traits.

    In this case, it's more like the F-20 vs. the F-5. Modifying a basic airframe to accomodate a new number of engines, throwing in a bunch of tweaks here and there, but overall an obvious derivative. Well, as much as the stolen data allowed them to.

    Sorry if I come across as a pissy nay-sayer.

    At least it has a two part canopy, which will undoubtedly mean that the Chinese and Pakistani fan boys will turn strangely quiet regarding that as an argument when throwing dirt at the PAK-FA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mack8 View Post
    From the PLAAF thread:
    Just like the fairing for RD-33 on JF-17, right ?
    Those engines are RD-33 variants no doubt. Its basically F-35 with MiG-29 engines.. but they are not the RD-133 variant which is thrust vectoring. If they were, it would be drooping down like this


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    Quote Originally Posted by Italy View Post
    Those engines are RD-33 variants no doubt. Its basically F-35 with MiG-29 engines.. but they are not the RD-133 variant which is thrust vectoring. If they were, it would be drooping down like this

    Given we don't know anything about its internals + actual performance, that is a bit premature I think.

    Nice to see RD-33 power a new testbed though .
    http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/9098/rsz11rsz3807.jpg

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    LOL laughing so hard. china can already make two stealth fighters but japan and korea cannot even make one. j21 is smaller then j20 but even if it is small it seem to have more bay space than the larger pakfa

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Snufflebug View Post
    I'm not a huge fan of these "copy!"-allegations but in this case I am willing to make an exception. It looks so much like a twin engined derivative of the X/F-35 with a touch of F-22-ness it's not even funny. I guess those hackers really came in handy this time.

    The J-20, though incredibly ugly and bloated looking, was at least tad original. Sure, there were evidence of solutions applied that are present in contemporary foreign fighters (like the DSIs and the general 1-41-ish layout), but overall we saw things that might very well have been arrived at independently. And obviously it had the general "stealth fighter" traits.

    In this case, it's more like the F-20 vs. the F-5. Modifying a basic airframe to accomodate a new number of engines, throwing in a bunch of tweaks here and there, but overall an obvious derivative. Well, as much as the stolen data allowed them to.

    Sorry if I come across as a pissy nay-sayer.

    At least it has a two part canopy, which will undoubtedly mean that the Chinese and Pakistani fan boys will turn strangely quiet regarding that as an argument when throwing dirt at the PAK-FA.
    This fighter is factory's self-funded project, not a officially approved one, so they use cheap stuff to build, thats why they use two part canopy in their first prototype, althrough for rumors say the second one of this class will get one-part canopy, as for PAK-FA, I dont know if the same reason holds, or maybe russians cannot make a one-piece canopy at all?

    As for being ugly/orginality, I think it is subjective, I am sure alot of people dont find a rolled su-27 being anything even remotely related to the word such as attractive or originality

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigershark View Post
    LOL laughing so hard. china can already make two stealth fighters but japan and korea cannot even make one. j21 is smaller then j20 but even if it is small it seem to have more bay space than the larger pakfa
    You can see that from those two grainy pictures? Wow !!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere View Post
    You can see that from those two grainy pictures? Wow !!!!
    This is the same guy who spotted a Chinese pilot testing a MiG-29 on the Kuznetsov, he has really good eyes!
    http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/9098/rsz11rsz3807.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere View Post
    You can see that from those two grainy pictures? Wow !!!!
    look at the picture on the top. you can see the bay door opening and also panel outline on side doors. it is safe to say it is on the other side as well so 2 bottom bay and 2 side bay. pakfa only has two bays between the engine. some say the two pod on the wing is a small bay but we dont know yet but the pod is not good for stealth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigershark View Post
    LOL laughing so hard. china can already make two stealth fighters but japan and korea cannot even make one. j21 is smaller then j20 but even if it is small it seem to have more bay space than the larger pakfa
    This is normal, most of our asians frens always counter our projects with newer and newer PPTs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderlei View Post
    I understand all that, but it doesn't have too look that much like a copy.

    I was first to defend T-50 PAK-FA when it came out and all the haters and pro-USAF jumped on it calling it a F-22 copy, which was pathetically wrong.

    In this case, all those guys will be right because F-22 and F-35 have some very unique shapes and proportions in design that did not have to be copied to achieve the same.

    just my opinion
    It is expected considering how much info they stole from the F-35 project.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheogorath View Post
    It is expected considering how much info they stole from the F-35 project.
    China makes everything by itself.. How dare you challenge the intellectual might of the Middle Kingdom?
    http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/9098/rsz11rsz3807.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheogorath View Post
    It is expected considering how much info they stole from the F-35 project.
    You may know it actually take a few thousands more genius to build a F-35 copy from stretch just 2 years later than they get some F-35 stuff, instead of desgin your own aircraft.

    Also, since China fund so many US projects through money and technologies (their trillon USD contribution to US military projects, as well as many Chinese scientists there, like the designer of F-14, or the chief scientist of the company who built YF-23, etc), I think its understandable even if they want the right to claim some share of the techs developed there.

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    Can you guys please stop trolling each other

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Snufflebug View Post
    I'm not a huge fan of these "copy!"-allegations but in this case I am willing to make an exception. It looks so much like a twin engined derivative of the X/F-35 with a touch of F-22-ness it's not even funny. I guess those hackers really came in handy this time.
    Actually the J-21 looks quite a lot like the model being tested in Russia a decade ago.. it looks like the YF-22 at first but its actually smaller if you look at the proportions, much closer to the J-21 size. Since Shenyang is very close with Russian companies, its entirely feasible they received Russian assistance


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    Quote Originally Posted by Italy View Post
    Actually the J-21 looks quite a lot like the model being tested in Russia a decade ago.. it looks like the YF-22 at first but its actually smaller if you look at the proportions, much closer to the J-21 size. Since Shenyang is very close with Russian companies, its entirely feasible they received Russian assistance
    China has never received Russian assistance with anything.
    China will be assisting Russia with Armata, PAK-FA, and S-500 this decade.
    http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/9098/rsz11rsz3807.jpg

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    However they do it, but they DO it. Hats off for that. They HAVE to do it, considering the threats around them ( read, US).

    Realistically , it won't be before late in this decade when they will be able to deploy the J-20 and perhaps the J-31*. IMO, J-31 will be a quantum leap compared to any other older similar class aircraft in PLAAF** service. The older heavy interceptors can be replaced by J-20 , while the bulk of the other medium fighters and attackers can be wonderfully replaced by J-31.

    IMO, a very potent line up in the early twenties would be J-20 spearheading J-11Bs, J-31 spearheading J10A/B, while perhaps the rumoured JH-7B will spearhead the J-16 and Su-30s still in service. (no JH-7, Q-5 , or older Su-27 types in this line-up)

    The ultimate look in the late twenties early thirties would be of course just J-20, J-31, JH-7B ( all incrementally improved, with perhaps residual numbers of J-10B, J-16, J-11B about to be replaced, all upgraded) plus other assets, maybe UCAVs , perhaps new strategic assets, while at that time the new 6th gen chinese fighter or fighters will be about to enter testing. They could technologically equal (at least) the americans by then and coupled with advanced SAM and early warning defense they could be certain of air dominance over China.

    *still maintaining a 0.5% skepticism just in case.
    ** i did not touched the navy air subject so far , need to read more on the subject.
    Last edited by mack8; 16th September 2012 at 21:51.

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